Official Trade Thread -- Part XL

[payitforward]

I agree that it would be great to get out of Russ's contract -- even though he has played well recently (& absolutely great the other night against Utah). If it could be done w/o costing us another asset, I'm all for it. If we got Zubac & expirings, great.

But, I think it would be even more advantageous to move Bertans. We have enough young players that with Davis gone we can get through the 2 years left on Russ's deal without paying luxtax. & Russ is playing extremely well now.

OTOH, with Russ gone & Davis still here, we are a worse team now & have to carry his salary forward through more years. This is especially important, because Davis Bertans just isn't all that good a player. & he is not of an age where he's likely to set higher levels for himself.

Now, if Russ gets hurt again & goes back to the way he played earlier this season, then the equation changes. Of course, you could say something similar about Davis for that matter.

[nate33]

Bertans & Gill for Zubac & Williams allows us to slide under the tax. The Clips have deep pockets as was written above. & their window is closing.

Would they view a gunner like Davis as giving them the chance to maybe grab a title before it's time to rebuild?

I don't think the Clippers give up Zubac to get Bertans.

[nate33]

I agree that it would be great to get out of Russ's contract -- even though he has played well recently (& absolutely great the other night against Utah). If it could be done w/o costing us another asset, I'm all for it. If we got Zubac & expirings, great.

But, I think it would be even more advantageous to move Bertans. We have enough young players that with Davis gone we can get through the 2 years left on Russ's deal without paying luxtax. & Russ is playing extremely well now.

OTOH, with Russ gone & Davis still here, we are a worse team now & have to carry his salary forward through more years. This is especially important, because Davis Bertans just isn't all that good a player. & he is not of an age where he's likely to set higher levels for himself.

Now, if Russ gets hurt again & goes back to the way he played earlier this season, then the equation changes. Of course, you could say something similar about Davis for that matter.

I'm open-minded to trading Bertans, but I don't feel the same sense of urgency because I figure he'll be the same player next year as he was this year (maybe a bit better since he'll have the opportunity to work out). So, sure, if we can trade Bertans for some value now, do it. But if we can't, no biggie. We can try again next year. In the meantime, the team is terrible at shooting 3's and can really benefit from Bertans' presence, as the on/off data consistently shows.

But with Westbrook, I think we might have a unique and fleeting opportunity to dump that salary painlessly - an opportunity that will never present itself again as Westbrook ages. If the Clippers would go for some variant of my proposal, I think we should do it with the quickness.

[FAH1223]

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[gambitx777]

The bulls make sense, but why on earth would atlanta want to out lonzo next to young.

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[Ruzious]

The bulls make sense, but why on earth would atlanta want to out lonzo next to young.

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Lonzo can play off the ball - and has done that a lot this season playing with Bledsoe - he's a good open shooter. He'd also give Atl options with a secondary ball-handler. And he's big enough to defend 2's.

Re the Wiz, I'm wondering if they're even considering any trades - because I don't get the impression that anyone's on board with each other - among the owner, the GM and the coach.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

The bulls make sense, but why on earth would atlanta want to out lonzo next to young.

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I think Huerter and Fernando might be who the Hawks would willingly offer in order to get Lonzo.

[payitforward]

(moved from nets game thread...)

I'd much rather keep Beal around, but he has to be all in on rebuilding toward a window 2-3 years down the road, which means he needs to be patient with developing the youngsters. This reload on the fly thing isn't working.

So what’s the problem with keeping Beal AND Westbrook around and asking both of them to be all in on a rebuild and to be patient with the development of the youngsters currently on the team and whoever the Zards draft this year?

I’m not convinced that having Westbrook around for two more years will necessarily be a significant impediment to developing Rui, Deni and the other youngsters. It could be an asset. It comes down to coaching...and hopefully Brooks won’t be that guy.

It’s nice to envision the Zards getting Mobley and Green (or two of the other top 4) after trading Russ and Brad...but it could very easily turn out to be a pipedream.

IMO, the most important thing is to recognize the key fact:

This reload on the fly thing isn't working.

Was Westbrook part of that strategy? No. We acquired Westbrook, because the franchise felt it was necessary to move on from John Wall. We agreed to pay a price to do it: a R1 pick. We may wind up paying less than that. I didn't like the move, but events are proving me wrong.

Given the way Russ is playing, & if he remains healthy & able to perform at this level, he should be worth more in the off season or at the deadline next year than he is now -- & certainly worth more than what it looks like John's value is.

The key "reload on the fly" move -- & mistake -- was signing Bertans. Secondarily, we brought in a few veterans on 1-year deals. That was minor. Would we better off if we had Nathan Knight & either Mason Jones or Nate Hinton now instead of Lopez & Neto? Of course we would: not b/c we'd have a better record but b/c we'd be feeding our future. Still... minor.

Re-signing Bertans was the only truly costly mistake. Davis has to go. He's a great guy, & he has a single very entertaining (& valuable) skill, but he is an impediment to our future.

When you make a mistake, you pay for it. Every time. No exceptions. What you want to avoid is making another mistake in the deal you put together to get rid of your mistake. That was what Ernie used to do over & over.

Trading Davis Bertans for expiring salaries & absolutely any pick whatever in the upcoming draft would be acceptable. The higher the pick the better, of course, but the key thing is to get that salary off our books for next year.

In the end, even Davis for expiring salaries & NO pick is better than keeping him. In fact, it may wind up being Davis & one of our young players for an expiring & a R2 pick. Take a deep breath & do it.

[pcbothwel]

PIF... We need to really boil down the Bertans situation. I agree that moving him for a pick and reallocating resources is probably best, but I think you are getting a little too negative about it.
What is the point of trading Bertans? To me, it would be to gain an asset and be able to use the Full MLE, and not go into the tax.

However, if no pick in the top 45 is at play and Ted is fine going a little over the tax to start the year... then what is the point?

I made my ideal scenario of Otto for the MLE, but that could very well not happen. Look at the rest of the FA market and gauge the MLE landscape. Its not more enticing than Bertans.
Its really Hardaway, Danny Green, Oubre, Mills, Millsap, McDermott, Bjelica, and Burks... Sorry, but all those guys are clearly worse than Bertans and/or in their 30's.
There a bunch of Centers like Drummond, KO, Theis, Noel, Holmes, Zeller, and Dieng... But Im not sure thats a huge improvement and puts more money at the Center spot.

Again, Moving Bertans allows us to be more flexible, but I wouldn't characterize it the way you have as a "Costly mistake".

[nate33]

PIF... We need to really boil down the Bertans situation. I agree that moving him for a pick and reallocating resources is probably best, but I think you are getting a little too negative about it.
What is the point of trading Bertans? To me, it would be to gain an asset and be able to use the Full MLE, and not go into the tax.

However, if no pick in the top 45 is at play and Ted is fine going a little over the tax to start the year... then what is the point?

I made my ideal scenario of Otto for the MLE, but that could very well not happen. Look at the rest of the FA market and gauge the MLE landscape. Its not more enticing than Bertans.
Its really Hardaway, Danny Green, Oubre, Mills, Millsap, McDermott, Bjelica, and Burks... Sorry, but all those guys are clearly worse than Bertans and/or in their 30's.
There a bunch of Centers like Drummond, KO, Theis, Noel, Holmes, Zeller, and Dieng... But Im not sure thats a huge improvement and puts more money at the Center spot.

Again, Moving Bertans allows us to be more flexible, but I wouldn't characterize it the way you have as a "Costly mistake".

Exactly. Bertans is movable now. He'll be movable next year. I'd do it if we had better things to do with the money, or if we could get a pick in the trade. But I'm not feeling this urgency or desperation that PIF is feeling.

[payitforward]

I agree that it would be great to get out of Russ's contract -- even though he has played well recently (& absolutely great the other night against Utah). If it could be done w/o costing us another asset, I'm all for it. If we got Zubac & expirings, great.

But, I think it would be even more advantageous to move Bertans. We have enough young players that with Davis gone we can get through the 2 years left on Russ's deal without paying luxtax. & Russ is playing extremely well now.

OTOH, with Russ gone & Davis still here, we are a worse team now & have to carry his salary forward through more years. This is especially important, because Davis Bertans just isn't all that good a player. & he is not of an age where he's likely to set higher levels for himself.

Now, if Russ gets hurt again & goes back to the way he played earlier this season, then the equation changes. Of course, you could say something similar about Davis for that matter.

I'm open-minded to trading Bertans, but I don't feel the same sense of urgency because I figure he'll be the same player next year as he was this year (maybe a bit better since he'll have the opportunity to work out). So, sure, if we can trade Bertans for some value now, do it. But if we can't, no biggie. We can try again next year. In the meantime, the team is terrible at shooting 3's and can really benefit from Bertans' presence, as the on/off data consistently shows.

But with Westbrook, I think we might have a unique and fleeting opportunity to dump that salary painlessly - an opportunity that will never present itself again as Westbrook ages. If the Clippers would go for some variant of my proposal, I think we should do it with the quickness.

Actually, despite what I wrote this morning, I have to agree that this makes a lot of sense. If Bertans can be traded now, then it would seem very likely that he can be traded in the off season or next year for at least as good a return.

Westbrook isn't in that "steady state" Bertans is in, so the decision is a lot more complex.

He is playing great right now. If that continues or he gets even closer to the guy that got traded for a huge number of assets 2 years ago -- terrific! We'd likely clean up in a trade. If he oscillates back in the opposite direction, we might be forced to ride out the contract. & even in the first of those 2 cases, the market has to be limited b/c of how big his salary is.

Of course, in either case a lot will depend on the deal on the table -- so, in the end, I have to think that they should both be on the market!

[payitforward]

PIF... We need to really boil down the Bertans situation. I agree that moving him for a pick and reallocating resources is probably best, but I think you are getting a little too negative about it.
What is the point of trading Bertans? To me, it would be to gain an asset and be able to use the Full MLE, and not go into the tax.

However, if no pick in the top 45 is at play and Ted is fine going a little over the tax to start the year... then what is the point?

I made my ideal scenario of Otto for the MLE, but that could very well not happen. Look at the rest of the FA market and gauge the MLE landscape. Its not more enticing than Bertans.
Its really Hardaway, Danny Green, Oubre, Mills, Millsap, McDermott, Bjelica, and Burks... Sorry, but all those guys are clearly worse than Bertans and/or in their 30's.
There a bunch of Centers like Drummond, KO, Theis, Noel, Holmes, Zeller, and Dieng... But Im not sure thats a huge improvement and puts more money at the Center spot.

Again, Moving Bertans allows us to be more flexible, but I wouldn't characterize it the way you have as a "Costly mistake".

Resigning him was certainly a "costly mistake:" he's overpaid, signed long-term, & doesn't help much if at all. Even playing at last year's level Bertans isn't worth his contract. What you most want is guys who help a lot but don't cost a lot.

Your list of (mostly) veteran "replacements" for Bertans via the MLE don't weigh heavily in my thinking, because unlike you I have recognized that, as nate put it, "this rebuild on the fly thing isn't working." IOW, I don't want any of those guys on your first list either!

As to Centers, my words above apply: "What you most want is guys who help a lot but don't cost a lot."

We can certainly improve on Lopez at Center next year -- & for a lot less $$. For starters, re-sign Len on the cheap. He has been exceptionally productive overall. Before replying with all he doesn't do, reread these 3 key words: "on the cheap."

Why Len? Well, first off, have you seen his girlfriend?
https://www.deviantart.com/lowerrider/art/Essence-Townsend-shorts-320818113 -- I'll let you guess which of the 4 women in this picture is the one.

Ok, forget that.... Alex Len is playing very well for us. Above all, he is scoring with great efficiency, & he is blocking a ton of shots. At a salary of under $1.3m. Sign him cheap, & let him rebuild his career here.

For the rest, I'm not interested in veterans, because I want to contend for a title, & we cannot possibly put that team together by paying market prices for players. Nobody can.

There are only 2 kinds of bargain contracts: 1. superstar contracts & 2. rookie contracts. Plus the occasional accidental lucky break like a productive veteran minimum guy.

[pcbothwel]

Im not sure what your entire post was even about.
Bertans did not take up cap space that can be used for a FA, nor did he put us into the tax.
What has he cost us in terms of opportunity cost?

"Rebuilding on the fly". What does this even mean? Have we cut corners that I am unaware of? I'd say the opposite.
We drafted Brown, Rui, and Deni in 3 straight drafts. All 3 were either the youngest players in their class (Brown & Deni) and/or raw in terms of experience with upside (Rui).
So we keep our draft picks and choose the best prospects, not the high floor/low ceiling guys that could help immediately.

How do you think Charlotte fans felt a year ago? Capped out with no elite talent or prospects, now they have LaMelo & Hayward.

How about the Suns a year ago? They were 26-39 (.400 is the same as the Wiz now) when COVID shut the season down in March with their "Future" of Booker and Ayton looking like they would never be who they hoped.

Point is. A top 6 pick, a new coach, some natural growth/improvement from our young guys, a savvy trade/pickup here or there. Boom. Different ball game. Far from certain, but very possible.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

PIF... We need to really boil down the Bertans situation. I agree that moving him for a pick and reallocating resources is probably best, but I think you are getting a little too negative about it.
What is the point of trading Bertans? To me, it would be to gain an asset and be able to use the Full MLE, and not go into the tax.

However, if no pick in the top 45 is at play and Ted is fine going a little over the tax to start the year... then what is the point?

I made my ideal scenario of Otto for the MLE, but that could very well not happen. Look at the rest of the FA market and gauge the MLE landscape. Its not more enticing than Bertans.
Its really Hardaway, Danny Green, Oubre, Mills, Millsap, McDermott, Bjelica, and Burks... Sorry, but all those guys are clearly worse than Bertans and/or in their 30's.
There a bunch of Centers like Drummond, KO, Theis, Noel, Holmes, Zeller, and Dieng... But Im not sure thats a huge improvement and puts more money at the Center spot.

Again, Moving Bertans allows us to be more flexible, but I wouldn't characterize it the way you have as a "Costly mistake".

Exactly. Bertans is movable now. He'll be movable next year. I'd do it if we had better things to do with the money, or if we could get a pick in the trade. But I'm not feeling this urgency or desperation that PIF is feeling.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yhyeqmme

Bertans and Troy Brown to Golden State for

Oubre and Looney who give both cap relief and more wins

[gambitx777]

Gs is in an interesting spot. They are way over the tax too the point that they are gonna struggle to add value pieces with out eating money. Would they be willing to trade kelly which is basically a trade exception on legs to make sure they can have a guy signed next year for anything. Maybe but I doubt it would be Bertans.

PIF... We need to really boil down the Bertans situation. I agree that moving him for a pick and reallocating resources is probably best, but I think you are getting a little too negative about it.
What is the point of trading Bertans? To me, it would be to gain an asset and be able to use the Full MLE, and not go into the tax.

However, if no pick in the top 45 is at play and Ted is fine going a little over the tax to start the year... then what is the point?

I made my ideal scenario of Otto for the MLE, but that could very well not happen. Look at the rest of the FA market and gauge the MLE landscape. Its not more enticing than Bertans.
Its really Hardaway, Danny Green, Oubre, Mills, Millsap, McDermott, Bjelica, and Burks... Sorry, but all those guys are clearly worse than Bertans and/or in their 30's.
There a bunch of Centers like Drummond, KO, Theis, Noel, Holmes, Zeller, and Dieng... But Im not sure thats a huge improvement and puts more money at the Center spot.

Again, Moving Bertans allows us to be more flexible, but I wouldn't characterize it the way you have as a "Costly mistake".

Exactly. Bertans is movable now. He'll be movable next year. I'd do it if we had better things to do with the money, or if we could get a pick in the trade. But I'm not feeling this urgency or desperation that PIF is feeling.

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yhyeqmme

Bertans and Troy Brown to Golden State for

Oubre and Looney who give both cap relief and more wins

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[gambitx777]

Saw an article today talking about of Bertans is now available but not likely to be traded. I wonder where that came from. Like did it come from the wiz or are there actually trade talks for him happening, or is there actually interest from teams. Like I can see teams in the 3-9 spots seeing Bertans as a good solid plan C if they feel they NEED an upgrade.

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[WallToWall]

Saw an article today talking about of Bertans is now available but not likely to be traded. I wonder where that came from. Like did it come from the wiz or are there actually trade talks for him happening, or is there actually interest from teams. Like I can see teams in the 3-9 spots seeing Bertans as a good solid plan C if they feel they NEED an upgrade.

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IF it came from the front office, then maybe they have realized the fate of the current team, and so are willing to trade older players to bring in youth and/or picks.

[NatP4]

Wiz interested in Jarret Allen.

[payitforward]

Im not sure what your entire post was even about.
Bertans did not take up cap space that can be used for a FA, nor did he put us into the tax.
What has he cost us in terms of opportunity cost?...

I cannot understand how you can write this, honestly.

The way you win in the NBA is by putting players on the floor who are better than average for the $$ they are paid. Period. In a league with a cap, that is the only way you win. No team is perfect at doing this, but some are better than others.

Davis Bertans isn't producing at a high enough level to be paid $16m/year on a (almost entirely) guaranteed 5 year deal. Not only isn't he producing at a high enough level this year, but his production last year didn't warrant that contract. On top of which, he is a single-skill player. When that skill fails him, he has nothing much else to draw on. Guys like that are risky at any $$ but especially long-term & for a lot of $$.

"Rebuilding on the fly". What does this even mean? Have we cut corners that I am unaware of? I'd say the opposite....

The phrase isn't mine, it's nate's. He can tell you what he means.

We drafted Brown, Rui, and Deni in 3 straight drafts. All 3 were either the youngest players in their class (Brown & Deni) and/or raw in terms of experience with upside (Rui).
So we keep our draft picks and choose the best prospects, not the high floor/low ceiling guys that could help immediately. ...

Well, I don't think we can claim the phrase I've highlighted with any certainty -- but, it's fair to say we tried to do that. So what? We also evidenced no strategy to increase our glean from the draft -- look at what Memphis did in the most recent draft for a clear & obvious difference in how a team handles a draft.

Plus, instead of getting max value out of the draft, we brought over a guy from Russia & we signed veterans with no role in our future -- as if we'd done enough "rebuilding" & now were ready to glean the benefits (I think this is at least part of what nate means by "rebuilding on the fly").

...How do you think Charlotte fans felt a year ago? Capped out with no elite talent or prospects, now they have LaMelo & Hayward....

Charlotte has a 14-man roster. 9 of the 14 players are from the last 3 drafts. All guys they picked -- not wash-outs on a visit. We have a 15-man roster. We have 3 players who meet the above description. Plus we have Robinson on a visit, Wagner who was given away & whose option we declined, & Bonga who was also given away.

Charlotte's 2 most expensive players make $47m combined. Our 2 most expensive make $70m. They have way way more roster flexibility, way more prospects, way more room to move & make deals, etc. than we do. Is it really necessary to explain these obvious facts?

Oh, & they also have a much better record than we do.

...How about the Suns a year ago? They were 26-39 (.400 is the same as the Wiz now) when COVID shut the season down in March with their "Future" of Booker and Ayton looking like they would never be who they hoped.

No, .400 is not the same .366. & anyway that wasn't their record at the end of the season, was it? In fact, Phoenix went 34-39 last year, didn't they? We were 25-47.

...Point is. A top 6 pick, a new coach, some natural growth/improvement from our young guys, a savvy trade/pickup here or there. Boom. Different ball game. Far from certain, but very possible.

"Boom?"

Hey, may the force be with you! I mean with us. But "Boom" is not a plan. "Boom" is magical thinking. "Boom" is not a strategy. "Boom" just affirms that miracles are possible.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Saw an article today talking about of Bertans is now available but not likely to be traded. I wonder where that came from. Like did it come from the wiz or are there actually trade talks for him happening, or is there actually interest from teams. Like I can see teams in the 3-9 spots seeing Bertans as a good solid plan C if they feel they NEED an upgrade.

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I would trade Bertans for Kelly Oubre right now.

I would love to see Davis get his confidence back. He would be another splash brother. AND...Kelly Oubre needs to come back to Washington because we need a player just like him right now