76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[Nate505]

he's the best defensive player in the league the moment he steps back on the court, hardly a wuss.

Yet he's not on the court now. He's out pouting and scared to play. Therefore he's a wuss.

He's making a stand. Sacrificing money for freedom of player movement. Messiah, not a wuss.

It would be one thing if he was sacrificing money on principle What he tried to do instead was go "wah, my mental health, wah, please pay me, wah, I don't want to be here but please pay me because of my mental health, wah." It didn't work, but not for his lack of weaselness.

[sikma42]

he's the best defensive player in the league the moment he steps back on the court, hardly a wuss.

I am really wondering where this myth is coming from.
He's lacking the interior an help defense to be that.

There's an obsession with on ball wing defenders and it's been going on for decades. I don't get it but it is what it is.

I’d put him as a top 5ish defender. He can guard anyone 1-4 very well and he is a great player guard the pick and roll. Plus he is a tenuous on ball defender and good rebounder. He is definitely a top defender.


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[dhsilv2]

I am really wondering where this myth is coming from.
He's lacking the interior an help defense to be that.

There's an obsession with on ball wing defenders and it's been going on for decades. I don't get it but it is what it is.

I’d put him as a top 5ish defender. He can guard anyone 1-4 very well and he is a great player guard the pick and roll. Plus he is a tenuous on ball defender and good rebounder. He is definitely a top defender.


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He's great but the top defenders are always the guys who can guard the rim. It's just how basketball works. And while sometimes wings like Ben or Leonard DO have impact better than some of the bigs, there's always through nba history been better players. Case and point Ben's own teammate Embiid is a better defender.

[sikma42]

There's an obsession with on ball wing defenders and it's been going on for decades. I don't get it but it is what it is.

I’d put him as a top 5ish defender. He can guard anyone 1-4 very well and he is a great player guard the pick and roll. Plus he is a tenuous on ball defender and good rebounder. He is definitely a top defender.


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He's great but the top defenders are always the guys who can guard the rim. It's just how basketball works. And while sometimes wings like Ben or Leonard DO have impact better than some of the bigs, there's always through nba history been better players. Case and point Ben's own teammate Embiid is a better defender.

Ben is a top 5ish defensive player. Leonard was a beast during his athletic peak. In the modern NBA, switchable guys like Ben and Leonard also hold huge value, especially in high leverage situations (the ones I value most).

If Ben being too 5ish is off then it shouldn’t be hard to name 10 guys better than him


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[dhsilv2]

I’d put him as a top 5ish defender. He can guard anyone 1-4 very well and he is a great player guard the pick and roll. Plus he is a tenuous on ball defender and good rebounder. He is definitely a top defender.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

He's great but the top defenders are always the guys who can guard the rim. It's just how basketball works. And while sometimes wings like Ben or Leonard DO have impact better than some of the bigs, there's always through nba history been better players. Case and point Ben's own teammate Embiid is a better defender.

Ben is a top 5ish defensive player. Leonard was a beast during his athletic peak. In the modern NBA, switchable guys like Ben and Leonard also hold huge value, especially in high leverage situations (the ones I value most).

If Ben being too 5ish is off then it shouldn’t be hard to name 10 guys better than him


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Last year....

Gobert, Green, Turner, Capella, Poetli (SP?), Covington, Noel, Lopez, Giannis...

dunno if I can get 10 but there's 8.

[Sixerscan]

What trade was available that the 76ers passed up for Ben Simmons this summer?

Best I saw was Brodgon and a first, which is worse than the CJ, Simons or Little and a first offer that Woj or whoever reported this week. I guess we're not sure if that's literally on the table today but I didn't see anyone connected to the league say the Blazers would never do that.

As I said at the time, the concern trolling about Simmons' trade value during the preseason and the beginning of the year was backwards. Morey's assumption by waiting is not that other teams are just going to change their mind about Ben Simmons one day, but that some of the other teams are going to change their mind about their own players and players are going to change their mind about their teams.

Every year like 25 teams convince themselves preseason they can be playoff teams as constructed. The thing is, because the rules only allow 16 playoff teams, invariably some of those teams will disappoint. When that happens, like you are already seeing with the Blazers and Pacers, I assume more teams will join them, it forces those teams (and players on those teams) to face the reality that their roster isn't as good as they thought it was. At which point trading for Simmons becomes more attractive to them.

For example, the Blazers convinced themselves this off season that the issue with their defense was Stott's system and Chauncey was going to fix it. Now that they're still getting lit up every night, you may start thinking it is more of a personnel issue, and maybe a DPOY runner up looks more useful, or maybe blowing it up and starting over with a 25 year old all star makes more sense...

We'll see how it plays out. That's the theory though, not that teams are going to suddenly forget he doesn't shoot jump shots or how he's acted recently.

The flaw in this theory is it presumes that Simmons and Philly is the only player/team in town to trade with. If/When the Blazers announce Lillard is available, there'll be many teams bidding for him and there will surely be better offers than someone described so eloquently by Nate505 as:

"Yeah, that and because Simmons is a head case who has proven he'll just sit out on a team when his precious feelings are hurt, as he's not cut out to be a professional athlete. And because he's about as unprofessional as it gets. And because he can't shoot. And because he doesn't work on his game...."

Simmons' value today is what it is and won't increase because a real star, for example Lillard, is open to being traded. The only person that can increase Simmons' value is Simmons himself... but that ship has long sailed.

Not necessarily the case. For example, there were only two teams bidding for Harden. I'm sure you could find other packages around the league that a team might like better than Simmons, doesn't mean they are going to be offered though. You could fill two all star teams with all the guys the Celtics "totally could have traded Jaylen Brown for" but didn't end up offering him. And it's not just about Lillard, it's about any acceptable target that comes available over time.

Anyway, my point isn't that it's guaranteed to work, just explaining the potential benefits of waiting. If anyone wants to point me to this great offer the Sixers passed on this offseason feel free. If it's true that the Blazers would still do that CJ offer it seems pretty obvious his value hasn't dropped despite all the concern trolling.

[cdubbz]

Still can’t believe Ben Simmons isn’t playing. He’s getting millions to play a game and doesn’t like his team.

This is the beginning of the end to player empowerment

[KHRICH]

He's great but the top defenders are always the guys who can guard the rim. It's just how basketball works. And while sometimes wings like Ben or Leonard DO have impact better than some of the bigs, there's always through nba history been better players. Case and point Ben's own teammate Embiid is a better defender.

Ben is a top 5ish defensive player. Leonard was a beast during his athletic peak. In the modern NBA, switchable guys like Ben and Leonard also hold huge value, especially in high leverage situations (the ones I value most).

If Ben being too 5ish is off then it shouldn’t be hard to name 10 guys better than him


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Last year....

Gobert, Green, Turner, Capella, Poetli (SP?), Covington, Noel, Lopez, Giannis...

dunno if I can get 10 but there's 8.

Lmao I'll give you gobert but no way in hell you can say last year all those guys were better. Ben hate is blinding you.

[sikma42]

Ben is a top 5ish defensive player. Leonard was a beast during his athletic peak. In the modern NBA, switchable guys like Ben and Leonard also hold huge value, especially in high leverage situations (the ones I value most).

If Ben being too 5ish is off then it shouldn’t be hard to name 10 guys better than him


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Last year....

Gobert, Green, Turner, Capella, Poetli (SP?), Covington, Noel, Lopez, Giannis...

dunno if I can get 10 but there's 8.

Lmao I'll give you gobert but no way in hell you can say last year all those guys were better. Ben hate is blinding you.

Yea, I didn’t even wanna respond. It just not even debatable for a lot of these


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[links135]

There's an obsession with on ball wing defenders and it's been going on for decades. I don't get it but it is what it is.

I’d put him as a top 5ish defender. He can guard anyone 1-4 very well and he is a great player guard the pick and roll. Plus he is a tenuous on ball defender and good rebounder. He is definitely a top defender.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

He's great but the top defenders are always the guys who can guard the rim. It's just how basketball works. And while sometimes wings like Ben or Leonard DO have impact better than some of the bigs, there's always through nba history been better players. Case and point Ben's own teammate Embiid is a better defender.

Wellllll, Gobert couldn't really do much to defend the 3 point shot against the Clippers last year, even without Kawhi, so yeahhhhhh.

Maybe not quite so much.

[Pythagoras]

He's great but the top defenders are always the guys who can guard the rim. It's just how basketball works. And while sometimes wings like Ben or Leonard DO have impact better than some of the bigs, there's always through nba history been better players. Case and point Ben's own teammate Embiid is a better defender.

Ben is a top 5ish defensive player. Leonard was a beast during his athletic peak. In the modern NBA, switchable guys like Ben and Leonard also hold huge value, especially in high leverage situations (the ones I value most).

If Ben being too 5ish is off then it shouldn’t be hard to name 10 guys better than him


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Last year....

Gobert, Green, Turner, Capella, Poetli (SP?), Covington, Noel, Lopez, Giannis...

dunno if I can get 10 but there's 8.

You certainly named 8 players, but he asked for players that were actually more impactful defenders than Simmons.

[JujitsuFlip]

Ben is a top 5ish defensive player. Leonard was a beast during his athletic peak. In the modern NBA, switchable guys like Ben and Leonard also hold huge value, especially in high leverage situations (the ones I value most).

If Ben being too 5ish is off then it shouldn’t be hard to name 10 guys better than him


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Last year....

Gobert, Green, Turner, Capella, Poetli (SP?), Covington, Noel, Lopez, Giannis...

dunno if I can get 10 but there's 8.

You certainly named 8 players, but he asked for players that were actually more impactful defenders than Simmons.

I’d put him as a top 5ish defender. He can guard anyone 1-4 very well and he is a great player guard the pick and roll. Plus he is a tenuous on ball defender and good rebounder. He is definitely a top defender.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

He's great but the top defenders are always the guys who can guard the rim. It's just how basketball works. And while sometimes wings like Ben or Leonard DO have impact better than some of the bigs, there's always through nba history been better players. Case and point Ben's own teammate Embiid is a better defender.

Wellllll, Gobert couldn't really do much to defend the 3 point shot against the Clippers last year, even without Kawhi, so yeahhhhhh.

Maybe not quite so much.

Last year....

Gobert, Green, Turner, Capella, Poetli (SP?), Covington, Noel, Lopez, Giannis...

dunno if I can get 10 but there's 8.

Lmao I'll give you gobert but no way in hell you can say last year all those guys were better. Ben hate is blinding you.

Yea, I didn’t even wanna respond. It just not even debatable for a lot of these


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Ben is a top 5ish defensive player. Leonard was a beast during his athletic peak. In the modern NBA, switchable guys like Ben and Leonard also hold huge value, especially in high leverage situations (the ones I value most).

If Ben being too 5ish is off then it shouldn’t be hard to name 10 guys better than him


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Last year....

Gobert, Green, Turner, Capella, Poetli (SP?), Covington, Noel, Lopez, Giannis...

dunno if I can get 10 but there's 8.

Lmao I'll give you gobert but no way in hell you can say last year all those guys were better. Ben hate is blinding you.

Well, this wasn't hard guys.

Giannis, Noel, Draymond, Butler, Gobert, Jokic, and Bam all had a better DBPM than Ben last season.

There are 70 guys better than Ben in DRAPTOR last season... Including, Giannis, Noel, Draymond, Butler, Gobert, Bam, Turner, Covington, Capella, Lopez, and Poeltl.

We can look at individual play type defensive metrics as well if any of you all want.

[Pythagoras]

There are 70 guys better than Ben in DRAPTOR last season... Including, Giannis, Noel, Draymond, Butler, Gobert, Bam, Turner, Covington, Capella, Lopez, and Poeltl.

Nicolas Claxton was 2nd in DRAPTOR last year and Blake Griffin is 3rd this year. Why do those wacky Nets keep burying their elite defense bigs on the bench?

[JujitsuFlip]

There are 70 guys better than Ben in DRAPTOR last season... Including, Giannis, Noel, Draymond, Butler, Gobert, Bam, Turner, Covington, Capella, Lopez, and Poeltl.

Nicolas Clayton was 2nd in DRAPTOR last year and Blake Griffin is 3rd this year. Why do those wacky Nets keep burying their elite defense bigs on the bench?

Clayton? lol I think you mean Claxton but ya know when a guy is in the 95th percentile in post defense in the league, that may tend to happen... But ya know, that's tracking stats for ya

[Pythagoras]

There are 70 guys better than Ben in DRAPTOR last season... Including, Giannis, Noel, Draymond, Butler, Gobert, Bam, Turner, Covington, Capella, Lopez, and Poeltl.

Nicolas Clayton was 2nd in DRAPTOR last year and Blake Griffin is 3rd this year. Why do those wacky Nets keep burying their elite defense bigs on the bench?

Clayton? lol I think you mean Claxton but ya know when a guy is in the 95th percentile in post defense in the league, that may tend to happen... But ya know, that's tracking stats for ya

Apologies. I posted from my phone and for some reason it decided to autocorrect Claxton to Clayton and I didn’t bother to proofread.

But just to be clear, you’re doubling down on the idea that that Claxton was a top 5 defender last year? And that Griffin is one this year?

[JujitsuFlip]

Nicolas Clayton was 2nd in DRAPTOR last year and Blake Griffin is 3rd this year. Why do those wacky Nets keep burying their elite defense bigs on the bench?

Clayton? lol I think you mean Claxton but ya know when a guy is in the 95th percentile in post defense in the league, that may tend to happen... But ya know, that's tracking stats for ya

Apologies. I posted from my phone and for some reason it decided to autocorrect Claxton to Clayton and I didn’t bother to proofread.

But just to be clear, you’re doubling down on the idea that that Claxton was a top 5 defender last year? And that Griffin is one this year?

These are your examples, not mine. I do not rely simply on RAPTOR, you just parsed it that way.

Griffin is in the 93rd percentile against spot up shooters this season.

To answer your question about the Nets, it's almost like there is another end of the floor or something, huh?

I can tell you this for certain, both are performing better on defense this season than Ben Simmons lol

[dhsilv2]

Ben is a top 5ish defensive player. Leonard was a beast during his athletic peak. In the modern NBA, switchable guys like Ben and Leonard also hold huge value, especially in high leverage situations (the ones I value most).

If Ben being too 5ish is off then it shouldn’t be hard to name 10 guys better than him


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Last year....

Gobert, Green, Turner, Capella, Poetli (SP?), Covington, Noel, Lopez, Giannis...

dunno if I can get 10 but there's 8.

Lmao I'll give you gobert but no way in hell you can say last year all those guys were better. Ben hate is blinding you.

I've been one of the most vocal fans of Ben on this forum who isn't a 76ers fan. I'm a full on fan of his and go out of my way to watch the 76ers because of how much I enjoy his game.

I also understand how low value on ball defense is in the NBA. If you can't protect the rim, your value is just not going to be there at those elite levels.

[dhsilv2]

Last year....

Gobert, Green, Turner, Capella, Poetli (SP?), Covington, Noel, Lopez, Giannis...

dunno if I can get 10 but there's 8.

You certainly named 8 players, but he asked for players that were actually more impactful defenders than Simmons.

He's great but the top defenders are always the guys who can guard the rim. It's just how basketball works. And while sometimes wings like Ben or Leonard DO have impact better than some of the bigs, there's always through nba history been better players. Case and point Ben's own teammate Embiid is a better defender.

Wellllll, Gobert couldn't really do much to defend the 3 point shot against the Clippers last year, even without Kawhi, so yeahhhhhh.

Maybe not quite so much.

Lmao I'll give you gobert but no way in hell you can say last year all those guys were better. Ben hate is blinding you.

Yea, I didn’t even wanna respond. It just not even debatable for a lot of these


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Last year....

Gobert, Green, Turner, Capella, Poetli (SP?), Covington, Noel, Lopez, Giannis...

dunno if I can get 10 but there's 8.

Lmao I'll give you gobert but no way in hell you can say last year all those guys were better. Ben hate is blinding you.

Well, this wasn't hard guys.

Giannis, Noel, Draymond, Butler, Gobert, Jokic, and Bam all had a better DBPM than Ben last season.

There are 70 guys better than Ben in DRAPTOR last season... Including, Giannis, Noel, Draymond, Butler, Gobert, Bam, Turner, Covington, Capella, Lopez, and Poeltl.

We can look at individual play type defensive metrics as well if any of you all want.

Didn't look at RAPTOR for that list but...that's actually one of the few metrics that should BENEFIT someone like Ben because it looks at the play type data which focuses on the on ball defense results while most other impact metrics are more on/off focused. Which just goes to show the insane level of bias that's built into fans ball watching, and really all this goes to make my point. Even people here who I generally think know their stuff, and a few of these contrarians absolutely do imo, they still are skewed to the bias created from how games are shown the ball watching that goes with that.

[dhsilv2]

There are 70 guys better than Ben in DRAPTOR last season... Including, Giannis, Noel, Draymond, Butler, Gobert, Bam, Turner, Covington, Capella, Lopez, and Poeltl.

Nicolas Claxton was 2nd in DRAPTOR last year and Blake Griffin is 3rd this year. Why do those wacky Nets keep burying their elite defense bigs on the bench?

lol, RAPTOR can be a complete mess with on ball defenders. They skew grossly towards some of those tracking stats. It creates a really off center and tilted metric. It directionally is pretty good but there's massive noise.

[dhsilv2]

I’d put him as a top 5ish defender. He can guard anyone 1-4 very well and he is a great player guard the pick and roll. Plus he is a tenuous on ball defender and good rebounder. He is definitely a top defender.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

He's great but the top defenders are always the guys who can guard the rim. It's just how basketball works. And while sometimes wings like Ben or Leonard DO have impact better than some of the bigs, there's always through nba history been better players. Case and point Ben's own teammate Embiid is a better defender.

Wellllll, Gobert couldn't really do much to defend the 3 point shot against the Clippers last year, even without Kawhi, so yeahhhhhh.

Maybe not quite so much.

In what world would you want Gobert defending the 3? That jazz defense in the playoffs was horrible. It was so bad Gobert had to break out of his zone to makeup for terrible play by his teammates.