Offseason Thread 6: The Not So Mexican Stand-off Continues

[Saberestar]

So Suns can take their chance with an injury prone EB on the QO for $3m next year, and worst case scenario lose him for nothing and have a boat load of money to reup Morri and Goran and sign (healthy) stars who want to be in PHX in '15 and beyond with new CBA? Ok fine.

Otherwise, wait out EB at $12m / year

Yes, a lot of stars are looking for play in Phoenix..
In the last 10 years we have signed...ummmm...Grant Hill??I think he is the best by a wide margin, and he was like 35.

[bwgood77]

We're willing to pay KD the max too but that doesn't mean we have the ability to or have the assets to make a deal happen either.

Action speak louder than words. Thus far, no team who have/or had the ability to offer max had made any moves to allow them to make that offer.

I am wondering if that is too logical for some?

Exactly. This is the most recent stunt by Paul and co and it's meaningless. I'm interested in offering Giselle $500 billion to marry me. Unfortunately, I don't have $500 billion, and Tom Brady would have a say in that, so I'm out of luck. That a team with less than $2 mill in cap space would accept a sign and trade in which they unloaded all their crap contracts for a near all star isn't news, and quite frankly shouldn't impact our negotiation with Bledsoe at all. He's not getting a max because nobody who had that room offered it to him, and now nobody has that cap space.

True, and it's crazy that all of this nonsense has actually worked on some of the fans. There is absolutely no reason to budge on the offer until he sits down to negotiate, and not until Sept 30th. If he was going to take the QO then why not already take it? They are still bluffing. Both sides will cave to some extent when they are up against the deadline. The only question is who will budge the most. I'm guessing the Suns will, but I don't think they have to. Meeting in the middle is 4/56 and they will probably end up at that and it will be settled. I'm just glad this is likely to be over in a little more than a week.

I'll still be personally surprised if they take the QO. I almost think it is more likely they allow it to expire and continue to hold out or try to get a higher QO. (not more likely than settling on a deal which I'd still put at 90% or better)

[SideSwipe]

Bledsoe has two teams willing to pay him the max. They just are not willing to pay him the max AND give up assets. That's the rub. I've been preaching this for a while now.

He can get a max contract. The only thing stopping him is Phoenix.

That's why he is butthurt. We are using RFA against him and then saying his market value isn't a max when two teams will pay him the max.

He's got a legit beef. It's just the rules, man.

While I very much appreciate your inside information, I think your take on this is a little off. "The only thing stopping him is Phoenix" is not accurate at all. What is actually stopping him is his players association in the negotiations of the CBA. If they didn't want RFA status in there they could have fought harder against it. His problem is that he expected the team to bend to his will. The only place he should have been hunting for max deals was to teams with the room to do it, the rest are just pie in the sky.

You need to look at Net Present Value. The sum total of where his value is today. Not last year, or next year. Today his value is dictated by the Suns and teams with cap space. That's it. The other MAX teams may have to rid themselves of bad or overpaid contracts to be able to qualify to establish value for Bledsoe. That in essence says they have to include those bad contracts in the total value equation for Bledsoe's contract. You cannot separate the two when calculating value.

All of that said, if a team did offer Bledsoe the Max, I think PHX will match. That's how good agents negotiators and players play RFA. They find a team that's willing to play chicken with the incumbent team for a chance to lure the player away. It blew up in DAL's face this year, didn't work out for CHA. It did work out for ATL and Joe Johnson years ago. It did work out for HOU with Lin. That's why the agent gets paid- not to drag your name and reputation through the mud while they try to make up for screwing up early in the free agent negotiating period. That's why Paul and Termini have failed Bledsoe in this process. They have not effectively protected him from negative press through this process. As such they have diminished his already slightly bloated value, making it even more difficult to get him a deal.

[LukasBMW]

The issue with the 64/4 offer is there is no negotiation involved. We very well may be in favor of reaching an agreement at 64/4 but the guy won't even come to the table to discuss and show why he's worth it. There's no reason why we should give him a max deal with no negotiation when no team is willing to man up with an offer, unless of course the teams are not tied to any sort of CBA guidelines and could offer max deals above the hard cap.

BOOM. Exactly!

As a fan I thought it made sense to match a 4/64 offer. Even now after a summer of drama, I'd be willing to offer him 4/64, but I'd want to meet with him and hear him say: "I want to be here."

If Bledsoe isn't even willing to meet up with the Suns crew and show enthusiasm to be in Phoenix, then why offer him a max?

[JJ13]

So Suns can take their chance with an injury prone EB on the QO for $3m next year, and worst case scenario lose him for nothing and have a boat load of money to reup Morri and Goran and sign (healthy) stars who want to be in PHX in '15 and beyond with new CBA? Ok fine.

Otherwise, wait out EB at $12m / year

Yes, a lot of stars are looking for play in Phoenix..
In the last 10 years we have signed...ummmm...Grant Hill??I think he is the best by a wide margin, and he was like 35.

What cap space and/or talent have we had to sign good players...with credible management running our team?

[lilfishi22]

The issue with the 64/4 offer is there is no negotiation involved. We very well may be in favor of reaching an agreement at 64/4 but the guy won't even come to the table to discuss and show why he's worth it. There's no reason why we should give him a max deal with no negotiation when no team is willing to man up with an offer, unless of course the teams are not tied to any sort of CBA guidelines and could offer max deals above the hard cap.

BOOM. Exactly!

As a fan I thought it made sense to match a 4/64 offer. Even now after a summer of drama, I'd be willing to offer him 4/64, but I'd want to meet with him and hear him say: "I want to be here."

If Bledsoe isn't even willing to meet up with the Suns crew and show enthusiasm to be in Phoenix, then why offer him a max?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHu8QrpvCvA[/youtube]

That's all we want.

[AtheJ415]

So Suns can take their chance with an injury prone EB on the QO for $3m next year, and worst case scenario lose him for nothing and have a boat load of money to reup Morri and Goran and sign (healthy) stars who want to be in PHX in '15 and beyond with new CBA? Ok fine.

Otherwise, wait out EB at $12m / year

Yes, a lot of stars are looking for play in Phoenix..
In the last 10 years we have signed...ummmm...Grant Hill??I think he is the best by a wide margin, and he was like 35.

With the core we have now it's a different story. With Nash guys wanted to play here, but we didn't always have the space to get other guys here, or else we used it on bad players like Turkoglu or Warrick. But Phoenix has done quite well in FA relative to the rest of the league sans a few teams over its history. Phoenix is in a great position to improve via FA or trade or the draft. But it has to be moves for the right guys.

[WTFsunsFTW]

I wouldnt be surprised if our plan is to let him take the QO, and match whatever he gets in UFA next season but either adding a 5th year (possibly as a team option) or boosting the overall value via higher annual raises. I think he would still be fine kicking ass for the suns if we paid him a notch above market value next year.


Here are your 2014-2015 Phoenix Suns
Bledsoe/Thomas/Ennis
Goran/Green/Zoran
Tucker/Marcus/Warren
Markieff/Tolliver/Randolph
Plumlee/Len/

[NBA Fiend]

From the suns perspective it's a six year 83.7 million deal. That's 14 million a year. I had not thought about this in that context. If bledsoe comes out and tears up the league the suns will still have the advantage of giving him that fifth year. I know a lot of people talk about hurt feelings but I wonder if bledsoe would turn down that fifth year.

Now I question with the revenue going up would he opt to do a two or three year deal. With Lebron advising him this seems plausible. Like I said earlier the most the suns can pay over 6 years is 83.7, so what would possess the suns to do 5 and 80 now. Especially with the knee situation. How about a three year deal with the third year being a team option? Something like 14/14.5/15 third year team option seems more than fair.

[Saberestar]

Zoran Dragic will be able to leave for the NBA also after October 5, when the ACB season starts, according to La Opinion de Malaga.
The new contract signed by the Slovenian combo guard with the Spanish team doesn’t have any deadline for the NBA as previously reported.
Zoran Dragic could leave also after October 5 for the Suns who are negotiating a two-year contract with Goran’s younger brother.
Goran Dragic will likely pay part of the buyout to let his brother Zoran go to the NBA to be one of his teammates.

http://www.sportando.com/en/europe/spai ... e-nba.html

[carey]

I wouldnt be surprised if our plan is to let him take the QO, and match whatever he gets in UFA next season but either adding a 5th year (possibly as a team option) or boosting the overall value via higher annual raises. I think he would still be fine kicking ass for the suns if we paid him a notch above market value next year.

It's an interesting thought. However, I still think that he'd rather make slightly less and play in that gaudy purple & gold in Los Angeles than play for the Suns if he hits UFA. Although I personally feel he has the personality of a door nail, I imagine that his handlers believe the endorsement opportunities in L.A. would easily make up the salary gap.

I'll be honest, I'm having trouble figuring out if I can root for the guy next year or not. Anyone else conflicted? Usually I root for whoever is wearing a Suns jersey. There's just something about the way he's handled his off-season that has really turned me off. It's weird... I usually am all for athletes making as much as they can while they can. I know they can't play the sport forever. I've just never, in my many decades of watching sports, seen a FA for a team I support behave this way. At least Drew Brees, who was holding my Saints for ransom, was constantly negotiating with the team.

[Frank Lee]

I dont think you will have to worry about it Carey. At this point, I think he has pissed off the Front Office more than the fans. Look at their reactions.... They are already moving beyond him. They know his instructions/intentions. When he takes the QO, I hope we just tell him to stay home, until some team shows enough interest to part with some reasonable asset. One thing for certain, I blame James for this fiasco as much as anyone and will continue my dislike for him and hope his assembled assmunchers fall short in their quest.


Can someone create a GIF for us... with LeBron as a JackAssian Centaur, with all of his cleveland minions jumping into his asscheeks..(Bledsoe included as the last one struggling to get in) then have James, with a strained bowel passing expression, expel Chris Bosh and Pat Riley.

[King4Day]

I wouldnt be surprised if our plan is to let him take the QO, and match whatever he gets in UFA next season but either adding a 5th year (possibly as a team option) or boosting the overall value via higher annual raises. I think he would still be fine kicking ass for the suns if we paid him a notch above market value next year.

It's an interesting thought. However, I still think that he'd rather make slightly less and play in that gaudy purple & gold in Los Angeles than play for the Suns if he hits UFA. Although I personally feel he has the personality of a door nail, I imagine that his handlers believe the endorsement opportunities in L.A. would easily make up the salary gap.

I'll be honest, I'm having trouble figuring out if I can root for the guy next year or not. Anyone else conflicted? Usually I root for whoever is wearing a Suns jersey. There's just something about the way he's handled his off-season that has really turned me off. It's weird... I usually am all for athletes making as much as they can while they can. I know they can't play the sport forever. I've just never, in my many decades of watching sports, seen a FA for a team I support behave this way. At least Drew Brees, who was holding my Saints for ransom, was constantly negotiating with the team.

I feel the same way too. I'll root for the team (and him) regardless, but I feel betrayed even though he didn't really do anything wrong.

The best we can hope for is the EB plays well and a team that will have space next offseason will offer us something decent for him.
I don't believe we'll trade him though. If he has a great year, I believe our front office would prefer having a shot at keeping him.

Assuming he takes the QO, does anyone know if we can do a sign and trade next offseason with him? 5 years to the team that wants him?
Or is it, 5 with us, or 4 with anyone else?
Can any sort of sign and trade be done? This way we can at least nab a trade exception?

[Years90Suns]

I am sure many of the GMs have to be laughing at Paul's manouvres to get his client a max contract. All this Minnesota max seems to be a little bit ridiculous. In addition, I am sure Bledsoe does not want to go to Minnesota. He wants us to offer a max contract or he wants other teams to buy into it and offer a max contract.
Paul convincing the press (because I highly doubt Minny would officialy say anything on that) and probably getting Sanders to speak only if needed is really a child's game.
This is a children's action. I can imagine Paul, LBJ and EB getting together to make up a strategy as any non proffesional would do. This is so ridiculous that makes me laugh everytime I think more about this.

Even the LAL did not offer a contract, when they just have Kobe at 38 and a bunch of guys who are not bad players, but they form a group of strange players that need a system and a good PG to start over.

All that said, I believe we should play the guy through his QO season, but give time to Thomas and Ennis so they can share the BC with Dragic and Goods next year and we can save money for the twins, Green and any good FA.

[NotTraxxe]

Zoran Dragic will be able to leave for the NBA also after October 5, when the ACB season starts, according to La Opinion de Malaga.
The new contract signed by the Slovenian combo guard with the Spanish team doesn’t have any deadline for the NBA as previously reported.
Zoran Dragic could leave also after October 5 for the Suns who are negotiating a two-year contract with Goran’s younger brother.
Goran Dragic will likely pay part of the buyout to let his brother Zoran go to the NBA to be one of his teammates.

http://www.sportando.com/en/europe/spai ... e-nba.html

The only difference here from what I know is that it is a three year deal with a partially guaranteed third year.

[RunDogGun]

Zoran Dragic will be able to leave for the NBA also after October 5, when the ACB season starts, according to La Opinion de Malaga.
The new contract signed by the Slovenian combo guard with the Spanish team doesn’t have any deadline for the NBA as previously reported.
Zoran Dragic could leave also after October 5 for the Suns who are negotiating a two-year contract with Goran’s younger brother.
Goran Dragic will likely pay part of the buyout to let his brother Zoran go to the NBA to be one of his teammates.

http://www.sportando.com/en/europe/spai ... e-nba.html

The only difference here from what I know is that it is a three year deal with a partially guaranteed third year.

That makes sense since they really wanted to bring him over next year instead of this year. I also love seeing my birthday show up in reports about the Suns.

[RunDogGun]

I wouldnt be surprised if our plan is to let him take the QO, and match whatever he gets in UFA next season but either adding a 5th year (possibly as a team option) or boosting the overall value via higher annual raises. I think he would still be fine kicking ass for the suns if we paid him a notch above market value next year.

It's an interesting thought. However, I still think that he'd rather make slightly less and play in that gaudy purple & gold in Los Angeles than play for the Suns if he hits UFA. Although I personally feel he has the personality of a door nail, I imagine that his handlers believe the endorsement opportunities in L.A. would easily make up the salary gap.

I'll be honest, I'm having trouble figuring out if I can root for the guy next year or not. Anyone else conflicted? Usually I root for whoever is wearing a Suns jersey. There's just something about the way he's handled his off-season that has really turned me off. It's weird... I usually am all for athletes making as much as they can while they can. I know they can't play the sport forever. I've just never, in my many decades of watching sports, seen a FA for a team I support behave this way. At least Drew Brees, who was holding my Saints for ransom, was constantly negotiating with the team.

I feel the same way too. I'll root for the team (and him) regardless, but I feel betrayed even though he didn't really do anything wrong.

The best we can hope for is the EB plays well and a team that will have space next offseason will offer us something decent for him.
I don't believe we'll trade him though. If he has a great year, I believe our front office would prefer having a shot at keeping him.

Assuming he takes the QO, does anyone know if we can do a sign and trade next offseason with him? 5 years to the team that wants him?
Or is it, 5 with us, or 4 with anyone else?
Can any sort of sign and trade be done? This way we can at least nab a trade exception?

I'm pretty sure if we sign him next offseason to a fifth year, we would have to wait until Dec to trade him.

[spaceballer]

I wouldnt be surprised if our plan is to let him take the QO, and match whatever he gets in UFA next season but either adding a 5th year (possibly as a team option) or boosting the overall value via higher annual raises. I think he would still be fine kicking ass for the suns if we paid him a notch above market value next year.

It's an interesting thought. However, I still think that he'd rather make slightly less and play in that gaudy purple & gold in Los Angeles than play for the Suns if he hits UFA. Although I personally feel he has the personality of a door nail, I imagine that his handlers believe the endorsement opportunities in L.A. would easily make up the salary gap.

I'll be honest, I'm having trouble figuring out if I can root for the guy next year or not. Anyone else conflicted? Usually I root for whoever is wearing a Suns jersey. There's just something about the way he's handled his off-season that has really turned me off. It's weird... I usually am all for athletes making as much as they can while they can. I know they can't play the sport forever. I've just never, in my many decades of watching sports, seen a FA for a team I support behave this way. At least Drew Brees, who was holding my Saints for ransom, was constantly negotiating with the team.

I feel the same way too. I'll root for the team (and him) regardless, but I feel betrayed even though he didn't really do anything wrong.

The best we can hope for is the EB plays well and a team that will have space next offseason will offer us something decent for him.
I don't believe we'll trade him though. If he has a great year, I believe our front office would prefer having a shot at keeping him.

Assuming he takes the QO, does anyone know if we can do a sign and trade next offseason with him? 5 years to the team that wants him?
Or is it, 5 with us, or 4 with anyone else?
Can any sort of sign and trade be done? This way we can at least nab a trade exception?

Yes, even if he takes the QO, the Suns can still sign-and-trade him next summer. But this is unlikely.

A sign-and-trade cannot pay him more than he can get from if he just signed with a team that had cap space.

He only gets 5yrs or 7.5% raises if he stays with the incumbent team. If he's doing a sign-and-trade, then he is limited to 4yrs and 4.5% raises. If he signs with another team in UFA, with no sign-and-trade, he is similarly limited to 4yrs and 4.5% raises.

Thus, if a team next summer has cap space to sign him, then there is no real reason for either that team or Bledsoe to seek a sign-and-trade. The only way it would be a sign-and-trade is if the other team is capped out and doesn't have the cap space to sign Bledsoe, thus requiring the facilitation of the Suns taking back salary matching contracts (like the crap contracts that Minny is trying to offload).

So it would be highly unlikely that the Suns can get a trade exception out of sign-and-trading Bledsoe, because any sign-and-trade partner would be capped out and have no cap space to give a trade exception. If they were under the cap enough to be able to offer a trade exception to the Suns, then why would they bother with a sign-and-trade in the first place instead of just signing Bledsoe directly and bypassing the Suns in UFA?

A sign-and-trade cannot pay Bledsoe any more money than he can get just by signing directly with another team that has cap space. This is why the Lakers lost Howard to the Rockets for nothing. The Rockets were under the cap and could sign Howard directly, and sign-and-trade wouldn't have paid Howard extra money.

The new CBA stopped the loophole in the previous CBA. Under the previous CBA, free agents could get more money via sign-and-trade. They can't under the current CBA. Might as well just sign directly and avoid a sign-and-trade altogether.

The only circumstance where it would be a sign-and-trade for a UFA is if the destination team is capped out and has to off-load unwanted contracts.

I wouldn't put the chances of a sign-and-trade netting something back for a UFA next season to be high. And it certainly will NOT be a trade exception to the Suns. Mostly likely a mix of crap contracts and assets, if it does happen. Kind of like what Minny is offering.

The days of free agents seeking out and preferring sign-and-trades are over. The new CBA closed that loophole. Players can't have their cake and eat it, too, now. Only way he benefits from bird rights (5yrs, 7.5% raises) is if he stays on the incumbent team. Leaving, whether via directly signing with another team with cap space or via a sign-and-trade, makes no difference. He can't get more money that way. And the other team won't seek a sign-and-trade unless they don't have the cap space to sign him directly and have to unload unwanted contracts.

[HurricaneKid]

I wouldnt be surprised if our plan is to let him take the QO, and match whatever he gets in UFA next season but either adding a 5th year (possibly as a team option) or boosting the overall value via higher annual raises. I think he would still be fine kicking ass for the suns if we paid him a notch above market value next year.

It's an interesting thought. However, I still think that he'd rather make slightly less and play in that gaudy purple & gold in Los Angeles than play for the Suns if he hits UFA. Although I personally feel he has the personality of a door nail, I imagine that his handlers believe the endorsement opportunities in L.A. would easily make up the salary gap.

I'll be honest, I'm having trouble figuring out if I can root for the guy next year or not. Anyone else conflicted? Usually I root for whoever is wearing a Suns jersey. There's just something about the way he's handled his off-season that has really turned me off. It's weird... I usually am all for athletes making as much as they can while they can. I know they can't play the sport forever. I've just never, in my many decades of watching sports, seen a FA for a team I support behave this way. At least Drew Brees, who was holding my Saints for ransom, was constantly negotiating with the team.

I feel the same way too. I'll root for the team (and him) regardless, but I feel betrayed even though he didn't really do anything wrong.

The best we can hope for is the EB plays well and a team that will have space next offseason will offer us something decent for him.
I don't believe we'll trade him though. If he has a great year, I believe our front office would prefer having a shot at keeping him.

Assuming he takes the QO, does anyone know if we can do a sign and trade next offseason with him? 5 years to the team that wants him?
Or is it, 5 with us, or 4 with anyone else?
Can any sort of sign and trade be done? This way we can at least nab a trade exception?

If he takes the QO he has veto rights on any trade made next year. And the team that trades for him is severely limited, including not being able to offer a 5th year, in their ability to resign him.

From an outsider's perspective, the Suns really haven't shown HIM the love here and I'm rather floored that people here are souring on HIM. RiPaul had no business demanding a 5 yr deal (that no one else could offer him anyways). But a 4 yr Max seems like a good deal and several other teams would be happy to pay it. They just aren't going to pay the price to dump salary and players to have him sign the offer sheet only to be matched anyhow. and no one is going to offer an All-Star for the right to pay him the max, which is what appears to be the asking price.

There is no question Bledsoe is the best player to have ever faced his team playing such hard ball on a QO. People keep bringing up Lawson/Curry and the deals they signed. Well they signed those deals over a year earlier than where Bledsoe is now. So they had a year to play on their rookie deals when they were given enormous piles of guaranteed money.

I thought Wash gave Wall his massive 5 year deal early (they gave it to him a year before they needed to). And voiced my disapproval at the time. Someone I greatly respect explained to me at the time that it was a players league and you have to treat the players right or other players take note and it really impacts your ability to do business in the future. Phoenix wasn't exactly a FA destination before but I really think we are getting to the point where the Suns are hurting their future by letting this continue to drag on.

[HurricaneKid]

I keep seeing mention of a 5th year. The only way a team can offer a 5 year deal it to pay the supermax. Which would be 5/90. Given that no one here wants to pay 4/64 its really not even a consideration. You CANNOT pay him say 5/75 next offseason. Its either 4 years or 5/90.

If you force him to play out the QO, which no one of his quality has ever been forced to do, you cannot envision a scenario where he resigns. And I believe you will see some serious "moping" during this season.

I don't claim to know the end game here. It certainly looks like they are planning a future without him. Maybe the best training staff in the history of the world told the team not to proceed with him. Maybe they are waiting for the trade offers to improve. But if the goal is to get him to play on a QO and hope that he wants to sign with a team that is over the cap next year, I just don't see that playing out very well for the Suns.