Sacramento early offseason in review (HW/bondom34/dbrandon/Slava)

[LightTheBeam]

The WCS conundrum is rebounding and a history of stagnated offensive skill development. Force feeding him as a PF ignores that basic fact.

Ideally SAC slides him to center next to a skilled 4 and length at the 2/3.

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The thing is that WCS isn't that great of a rebounder. He relies on his athleticism and doesn't use his body, often getting beat for position on the glass. He works with Cousins though, and you can call him the 4 if you want. It's all semantics really. He's never going to be used as an offensive threat, he's purely hustle plays and second chance opportunities when it comes to the offensive end of the floor. He works well with Cousins because he's long, athletic and can guard multiple positions and be a good weak side shot blocker, something we've needed with Boogie for a long time. The numbers in that chart can be deceiving because his PF minutes are probably slotted with Koufos who he doesn't fit very well with. Having Tolliver will probably decrease the amount of time WCS and Koufos are on the floor together so that should help his productivity itself.

Completely agreed with this. You will never find the perfect fit with Cousins, you either go with a plus weak side defender or a with a stretch 4. As I said before there's pretty much 1 guy in the nba who can do both in Ibaka. Koufos and Tolliver work well together as well. Excited for this year let's see what's in store.

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[HartfordWhalers]

You mentioned earlier that having Richardson and Bogdan on the team shouldn't impact us wanting to make a trade because Bogdan doesn't even play for the Kings yet and Richardson was a pick in the 20's. I say that its silly to make long term moves for injury prone players when we cant afford those moves and are excited about our young future.

Kings need to make long term moves, either to get good enough to convince Cousins to stay, or to prepare for a future without him.

If they want to plan for without Cousins and a long term rebuild, thats fine. Maybe those players will turn out to be good and Sacramento will be set long term, maybe they won't and Sac will go to the well and draft another sg until it sticks. (Or maybe the one that works out is really a sf). But if they are not only focusing on the post Cousins future, then given what they have at the position current I would absolutely double down on "Gordon is pretty needed there." He is, the team needs more talent, and complimentary talent, at every position (but Center).

In regards to Gay. I understand he's an expiring but I think you are really underestimating what he brings to this team. His first 2 years he was very efficient and was a reliable second scorer. The combination of Collison/Gay/Cousins was incredible together with Mclemore and Thompson. The way us Kings fan see it is now we are getting back to a coaching style wr had with Malone by going to Joerger, afflalo and WCS are infinitely better than McLemore and Thompson. For that reason we want to keep Rudy around. I also think Rondo was the worst thing to happen to Rudy. By starting Rondo over Collison it killed our spacing and Rudy's room to operate. He's not a spot up shooter you are right. He's a guy who can create his own shot when it's needed. I've said before I agree I wish Casspi would start over him and then let Rudy come in and control the bench. That won't happen but I disagree with the way our roster is set up that trading Rudy for Gordon would be beneficial.

And I think you are valuing him for something he won't do and isn't all that helpful of a thing on a good team. The value of a guy that needs space and has as his main skill creating so so offense only for himself and probably won't come off the bench while in a contract year and already having issues with the team isn't really something I put as all that worthwhile.

[Mystical Apples]

The WCS conundrum is rebounding and a history of stagnated offensive skill development. Force feeding him as a PF ignores that basic fact.

Ideally SAC slides him to center next to a skilled 4 and length at the 2/3.

The thing is that WCS isn't that great of a rebounder. He relies on his athleticism and doesn't use his body, often getting beat for position on the glass. He works with Cousins though, and you can call him the 4 if you want. It's all semantics really. He's never going to be used as an offensive threat, he's purely hustle plays and second chance opportunities when it comes to the offensive end

That's what I was driving at. Covering for his rebounding shortcomings at the 5 are more reasonable, however, than expecting him to acquire the necessary ball skills to ever not be clunky with a defensive 5 like Koufos.

I do think he can be additive offensively at the 5 in PnR using his mobility to move the defense. With Boogie though it's an offensive usage/space issue for both of them. WCS' PnR frequency of 14% was leaving waaaay too much on the table @ 1.14 PPP. He should be up around 25% and > 150 attempts.

He works well with Cousins because he's long, athletic and can guard multiple positions and be a good weak side shot blocker, something we've needed with Boogie for a long time. Having Tolliver will probably decrease the amount of time WCS and Koufos are on the floor together so that should help his productivity itself.

Tolliver isn't great but I'd bank on him getting plenty of run with Cousins - at the least we know he's comfortable defensively in space (high PnR and Spot Up defensive usage). If Joeger insists on starting WCS ideally Tolliver would replace him early and then WCS would return at C with Tolliver still on the floor. Need to move Koufous though.

[c3j3h]

It cracks me up that so many Kings fans think WCS is a PF. None of you were making that argument when he was in college. None of you projected him as an NBA 4 leading up to the draft. And nobody would be arguing he was a PF if he played for any other team.

The way to play Boogie is to pair him next to a stretch-4 that can defend the wings and protect the rim a bit. Perhaps somebody like Myles Turner. If only the Kings had a shot at Myles Turner in that 2015 draft...

[tmorgan]

It cracks me up that so many Kings fans think WCS is a PF. None of you were making that argument when he was in college. None of you projected him as an NBA 4 leading up to the draft. And nobody would be arguing he was a PF if he played for any other team.

The way to play Boogie is to pair him next to a stretch-4 that can defend the wings and protect the rim a bit. Perhaps somebody like Myles Turner. If only the Kings had a shot at Myles Turner in that 2015 draft...

I like seeing a critical perspective from a Kings fan, but... what makes you think Myles Turner can defend the wings? He's not particularly mobile now, at a young age, and that's likely only to get more pronounced as he builds strength. Turner is a 5... a five with range on his shot.

[sacking123]

How would you rate their draft if they'd taken Skal at 13 (projected in that range), Malachi at 22 and Papagiannis at 28?

Outside of a few popular publications Skal was closer to 20's, Richardson early to mid 2nd, and Papagiannis late 2nd to UD. Again, not awful in isolation but in totality leaves the impression a former player is running the FO without leaning on his analytics department.

Papa late 2nd to UD?
Well on draft day he wasn't lasting to the #22 pick so those publications were flat out wrong. Possibly because they didn't know anything about him?

[c3j3h]

How would you rate their draft if they'd taken Skal at 13 (projected in that range), Malachi at 22 and Papagiannis at 28?

Outside of a few popular publications Skal was closer to 20's, Richardson early to mid 2nd, and Papagiannis late 2nd to UD. Again, not awful in isolation but in totality leaves the impression a former player is running the FO without leaning on his analytics department.

Papa late 2nd to UD?
Well on draft day he wasn't lasting to the #22 pick so those publications were flat out wrong. Possibly because they didn't know anything about him?

Every single mock draft site had Papagiannis as a mid-late 2nd round pick up until the morning of draft day. I would assume the only reason he moved on the last day was because they heard Vlade was into him.

Check out Papagiannis' profile on DraftExpress. He was the 50th ranked prospect in the 2016 draft class. He was like the 3rd or 4th highest European Center prospect...Terrible pick. Completely out of left field. I'm still mad about it.

[Mystical Apples]

How would you rate their draft if they'd taken Skal at 13 (projected in that range), Malachi at 22 and Papagiannis at 28?

Outside of a few popular publications Skal was closer to 20's, Richardson early to mid 2nd, and Papagiannis late 2nd to UD. Again, not awful in isolation but in totality leaves the impression a former player is running the FO without leaning on his analytics department.

Papa late 2nd to UD?
Well on draft day he wasn't lasting to the #22 pick so those publications were flat out wrong. Possibly because they didn't know anything about him?

Draft models.

[sacking123]

Outside of a few popular publications Skal was closer to 20's, Richardson early to mid 2nd, and Papagiannis late 2nd to UD. Again, not awful in isolation but in totality leaves the impression a former player is running the FO without leaning on his analytics department.

Papa late 2nd to UD?
Well on draft day he wasn't lasting to the #22 pick so those publications were flat out wrong. Possibly because they didn't know anything about him?

Every single mock draft site had Papagiannis as a mid-late 2nd round pick up until the morning of draft day. I would assume the only reason he moved on the last day was because they heard Vlade was into him.

Check out Papagiannis' profile on DraftExpress. He was the 50th ranked prospect in the 2016 draft class. He was like the 3rd or 4th highest European Center prospect...Terrible pick. Completely out of left field. I'm still mad about it.

Yes I understand they did, doesn't mean Papa wasn't lasting until #22. I believe Vlade even said it was in his plans to try for #22 but then knew a team was taking him before that. He also said they had been watching him for years. (meaning Vlade had been lol).

So where Vlade went wrong was either a) listening to another team talking about picking Papa (which I don't think he would have let out of the bag he wanted him) or b) not making another small trade of let's say #13 for #18 plus future asset.

[codydaze]

It cracks me up that so many Kings fans think WCS is a PF. None of you were making that argument when he was in college. None of you projected him as an NBA 4 leading up to the draft. And nobody would be arguing he was a PF if he played for any other team.

The way to play Boogie is to pair him next to a stretch-4 that can defend the wings and protect the rim a bit. Perhaps somebody like Myles Turner. If only the Kings had a shot at Myles Turner in that 2015 draft...

So basically Serge Ibaka? Because there aren't a whole lot of players that fit this mold, you might get two out of the three at most and Willie has the latter two. I've never viewed him as a 4 vs a 5 or vice versa, just as someone who would be a good complement to Cousins' game. I also think the Turner/WCS debate is still up for grabs for either one of those guys.

Player A:
61% Center/39% PF
15.4 PER
53.1 TS%
0.8 OWS/2.3 DWS
-3.61 ORPM/0.25 DRPM
49.8 FG%
10.3 PPG
5.5 RPG
1.4 BPG
0.4 SPG

Player A:
58% Center/42% PF
15.3 PER
58.8 TS%
2.4 OWS/1.4 DWS
-0.93 ORPM/-0.95 DRPM
56.3 FG%
7.0 PPG
5.3 RPG
1.0 BPG
0.7 SPG

[blind prophet]

It cracks me up that so many Kings fans think WCS is a PF. None of you were making that argument when he was in college. None of you projected him as an NBA 4 leading up to the draft. And nobody would be arguing he was a PF if he played for any other team.

The way to play Boogie is to pair him next to a stretch-4 that can defend the wings and protect the rim a bit. Perhaps somebody like Myles Turner. If only the Kings had a shot at Myles Turner in that 2015 draft...

What are you talking about?

WCS was the consensus in Laimbeer's mock for those reasons

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1390531

Here's a short from the Bee with that in mind

http://www.sacbee.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/leading-off/article15541196.html

Here's another

2015 NBA Draft: Willie Cauley-Stein the "overwhelming favorite" in Sacramento

http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2015/6/2/8708175/2015-nba-draft-willie-cauley-stein-sacramento-kings-favorite

The NBA Draft is 23 days away and pre-draft workouts have begun. The last time we did a mock draft roundup, Kentucky Center Willie Cauley-Stein was almost unanimously selected for the Sacramento Kings. While there's a bit more shakeup this time around as various sites have shaken up their order, it still appears that Cauley-Stein is a favorite to go to Sacramento should he be available.

And there is no power forward or center in a WCS & Cousins lineup.

Cousins usually guards the bigger guy on the inside or may change considering on foul trouble.

[blind prophet]

It cracks me up that so many Kings fans think WCS is a PF. None of you were making that argument when he was in college. None of you projected him as an NBA 4 leading up to the draft. And nobody would be arguing he was a PF if he played for any other team.

The way to play Boogie is to pair him next to a stretch-4 that can defend the wings and protect the rim a bit. Perhaps somebody like Myles Turner. If only the Kings had a shot at Myles Turner in that 2015 draft...

So basically Serge Ibaka? Because there aren't a whole lot of players that fit this mold, you might get two out of the three at most and Willie has the latter two. I've never viewed him as a 4 vs a 5 or vice versa, just as someone who would be a good complement to Cousins' game. I also think the Turner/WCS debate is still up for grabs for either one of those guys.

Player A:
61% Center/39% PF
15.4 PER
53.1 TS%
0.8 OWS/2.3 DWS
-3.61 ORPM/0.25 DRPM
49.8 FG%
10.3 PPG
5.5 RPG
1.4 BPG
0.4 SPG

Player A:
58% Center/42% PF
15.3 PER
58.8 TS%
2.4 OWS/1.4 DWS
-0.93 ORPM/-0.95 DRPM
56.3 FG%
7.0 PPG
5.3 RPG
1.0 BPG
0.7 SPG

He's way off with this.

We do however need a facilitator good enough to incorporate WCS in the offense.

I'm not sure we have one currently.

[bpcox05]

Funny, as I think Labissiere has the tools to be a Serge Ibaka type player (athletic, shot blocking, 3pt shooting). If Labissiere could become that player in the future, starting him next to Cousins with Cauley-Stein as the first big off the bench is a pretty exciting rotation to think about.

[codydaze]

Funny, as I think Labissiere has the tools to be a Serge Ibaka type player (athletic, shot blocking, 3pt shooting). If Labissiere could become that player in the future, starting him next to Cousins with Cauley-Stein as the first big off the bench is a pretty exciting rotation to think about.

I definitely think that's the ideal rotation. Let Willie be the energy big off the bench in the Scott Pollard type role.

[sackings916]

The way to play Boogie is to pair him next to a stretch-4 that can defend the wings and protect the rim a bit.

A big who can shoot it, protect the rim AND is quick enough to defend wings?! Why didn't the Kings think of this?! You need to be in the front office ASAP!!!