Harden is the best player in the NBA

Moderators: Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285

NBA Fan 1234
RealGM
Posts: 48,653
And1: 28,365
Joined: Jul 16, 2009

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#121 » by NBA Fan 1234 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:42 pm

LivingLegend wrote:
kayman3 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Not hating on him Im just pointing out he is a very inefficient player. If the 3 ball is the case then he should probably take 4-5 less per game and mix in some more quality possessions. Ive watched Harden play enough to know of the 21 shots he takes per game, about 6 of them are complete low percentage heaves. Usually on a 3 point shot.


I think you still don't understand the concept of efficiency.

If a player A takes 10 two pointers and hits them at 50%, then he's made 5 two pointers. He produced 10 points in total.

If a player B takes 10 three pointers and this them at 40%, then he's made 4 three pointers. He produced 12 points in total.

Player B has lower FG%, but produced more points with the same amount of shot attempts.

This is why nobody says DeAndre Jordan (who regularly averages 60+ FG%) is more efficient than Curry.


I understand that and that would def. be the case if Harden ranked in the top 10 perimeter players in FG% of 30+mpg players. But he doesnt, Hes not even in the top 40 of non centers in FG% that play over 30mins a game.


Of the qualified players on BBRef, he's #16 in the league in TS%, third for guards, and second for guards playing > 30 MPG.
kayman3
Ballboy
Posts: 23
And1: 40
Joined: Nov 10, 2017

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#122 » by kayman3 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:42 pm

Knickstape1214 wrote:
kayman3 wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:
Not hating on him Im just pointing out he is a very inefficient player. If the 3 ball is the case then he should probably take 4-5 less per game and mix in some more quality possessions. Ive watched Harden play enough to know of the 21 shots he takes per game, about 6 of them are complete low percentage heaves. Usually on a 3 point shot.


I think you still don't understand the concept of efficiency.

If a player A takes 10 two pointers and hits them at 50%, then he's made 5 two pointers. He produced 10 points in total.

If a player B takes 10 three pointers and his them at 40%, then he's made 4 three pointers. He produced 12 points in total.

Player B has lower FG%, but produced more points with the same amount of shot attempts.

This is why nobody says DeAndre Jordan (who regularly averages 60+ FG%) is more efficient than Curry.


DJ is statistically more efficient than Curry.


Yeah DJ was a bad example, although obviously the volume has to be considered here.

DeRozan would be more appropriate.
NBA Fan 1234
RealGM
Posts: 48,653
And1: 28,365
Joined: Jul 16, 2009

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#123 » by NBA Fan 1234 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:47 pm

kayman3 wrote:
Knickstape1214 wrote:
kayman3 wrote:
I think you still don't understand the concept of efficiency.

If a player A takes 10 two pointers and hits them at 50%, then he's made 5 two pointers. He produced 10 points in total.

If a player B takes 10 three pointers and his them at 40%, then he's made 4 three pointers. He produced 12 points in total.

Player B has lower FG%, but produced more points with the same amount of shot attempts.

This is why nobody says DeAndre Jordan (who regularly averages 60+ FG%) is more efficient than Curry.


DJ is statistically more efficient than Curry.


Yeah DJ was a bad example, although obviously the volume has to be considered here.

DeRozan would be more appropriate.


Bigs like DJ and Capella will always be super efficient because of the shots they take. You're right in comparing his efficiency to someone like DD because that actually fits. I've literally never seen anyone make the argument that Harden is not efficient.
Rednation91
Pro Prospect
Posts: 803
And1: 524
Joined: Jul 05, 2016
     

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#124 » by Rednation91 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:47 pm

Impuniti wrote:
gmoney411 wrote:
Impuniti wrote:Did that include the time where he played vs superstar players like Draymond and Klay when Curry was out to completely **** the bed? Or was the offensive load the reason why he averaged 8 turnovers per game in the last 3 games of the last 3 years he got eliminated by another team?


Did you watch that series? Nobody else on the Rockets could do anything. Harden had amazing moments but he couldn't single handedly beat that Warriors team. They weren't going to allow one player to beat them. Even LeBron couldn't get over 40% shooting when it was just him versus that defense.

And yes, the offensive load is why he averaged that many turnovers. Nobody else on the team could create for others. Just go look at his turnovers this year compared to last year when CP3 plays. He's averaging 2 less a game.

He's averaging 1.3TOs less per game, not 2. And it's at 4.4 which is still an incredibly awful amount. Lebron played vs that team and Curry. Curry was either injured or missing through most of that series, I can't believe you're giving excuses to him having too much of a burned going vs Klay and Draymond. And yes I did watch the series. It was pathetic watching a superstar being unable to do anything vs a top that lost its engine due to injury.

And since cp3 has been back, hardens to per game is like 3.3 and curry is at 2.9 to per game for the season. That's pretty close considering harden still handles the ball and passes more than curry. Amazing what having just one other capable ball handler does huh? While gsw has Dray, Iggy, Livingston to handle ball handling duties for curry
User avatar
INKtastic
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 23,259
And1: 5,027
Joined: May 26, 2003
Location: Ohio
Contact:
     

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#125 » by INKtastic » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:48 pm

ThatBoyNick wrote:
INKtastic wrote:
ThatBoyNick wrote:
Lmao! This is such a terrible, terrible take.

Harden is 4th in TS% for players who make more then 6 field goals per game, with a whopping 63.4%. He's more effecient then KD and Thompson for example.

https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=TS_PCT&dir=-1&CF=FGM_PG*GE*6&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Considering he leads the league and scoring, and assist %, his effeciency is absolutely fantastic this year.


Which puts him just 3 spots behind the best player in the league and his TS% of "a whopping" 65.8%



My comment had nothing to do with Harden being the best player in the league, or Lebron at all? It was strictly Hardens effeciency. I said Harden was 4th which would imply he's not 1st correct?

And yes, Lebron is having an absolutely mind blowing offensive season.


Fair enough, I was addressing the topic of the thread. Harden is having a fantastic season, and at an absolute minimum is a top 4 player in the league right now (if you assume that Curry and Durant pull down each other's raw stats), possibly higher. I just don't think he's ahead of LeBron, who is playing at a ridiculous level himself, especially for his 15th season.

I also think the Warriors have to be pretty concerned about CP3 teaming up with Harden. The Rockets have yet to lose with Chris Paul, and he was huge in the win last night.

And I absolutely agree the main point of your post, that raw FG% is a terrible way to gauge efficiency.
http://www.inktastic.com/ Custom T-Shirts and more
Gil
Starter
Posts: 2,379
And1: 1,283
Joined: Feb 15, 2012

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#126 » by Gil » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:49 pm

NBA Fan 1234
RealGM
Posts: 48,653
And1: 28,365
Joined: Jul 16, 2009

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#127 » by NBA Fan 1234 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:51 pm

Gil wrote:
Zingod wrote:He always chokes when it matters.

Arizona state
Okc 2012 finals
Meltdown last year
Etc etc



:-?


(Put in spoilers just so I'm not quoting a million videos taking up the screen :lol: )

He took a trash ASU team to two great seasons including one NCAA birth where he was the ONLY perimeter creator. He might not have played well at ASU, but he was the sole focus of opposing defenses both games. I wouldn't call that choking.
Upperclass
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,869
And1: 2,204
Joined: Aug 09, 2005

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#128 » by Upperclass » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:51 pm

People discredit Harden because he doesnt look like he should be as good as he is. He also doesnt slap the floor or yell or scream, or grit his teeth and scowl. He just laughs and dances around and dominates you on the court.

Currently he is top 2. It's LeBron and Harden and then everyone else. Curry, Irving, Kawhi, KD etc. He's playing in a system tailor made for him. But so is Curry and to a lesser degree, Durant.. as is Kawhi.. as is Westbrook(iso-heavy). Newsflash.. playing a system that works for the player.. makes more sense than creating a system and shoehorning it on players that dont fit.

If he was a better defender and acted like he cares about winning and losing vs not caring whether he wins or loses.. he'd get far more respect.
kayman3
Ballboy
Posts: 23
And1: 40
Joined: Nov 10, 2017

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#129 » by kayman3 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:53 pm

Knickstape1214 wrote:
kayman3 wrote:
Knickstape1214 wrote:
DJ is statistically more efficient than Curry.


Yeah DJ was a bad example, although obviously the volume has to be considered here.

DeRozan would be more appropriate.


Bigs like DJ and Capella will always be super efficient because of the shots they take. You're right in comparing his efficiency to someone like DD because that actually fits. I've literally never seen anyone make the argument that Harden is not efficient.


It happens quite frequently because Harden's FG% is not that impressive, but his TS% has always been very good. Because many people still think FG% = efficiency, yeah Harden gets that a lot.
NBA Fan 1234
RealGM
Posts: 48,653
And1: 28,365
Joined: Jul 16, 2009

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#130 » by NBA Fan 1234 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:56 pm

kayman3 wrote:
Knickstape1214 wrote:
kayman3 wrote:
Yeah DJ was a bad example, although obviously the volume has to be considered here.

DeRozan would be more appropriate.


Bigs like DJ and Capella will always be super efficient because of the shots they take. You're right in comparing his efficiency to someone like DD because that actually fits. I've literally never seen anyone make the argument that Harden is not efficient.


It happens quite frequently because Harden's FG% is not that impressive, but his TS% has always been very good. Because many people still think FG% = efficiency, yeah Harden gets that a lot.


Still not something I've seen on RealGM.
TheHartBreakKid
General Manager
Posts: 8,125
And1: 4,818
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
 

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#131 » by TheHartBreakKid » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:57 pm

While I don't agree necessarily, it's crazy to think that we live in a time where a significant enough percentage of NBA fans actually have Harden as the best player from the 2012 OKC big three.



Hindsight is a bitch, but man, that trade will be infamous in the long run.....it'll be popping up in Bleacher Report lists in 2070 with young kids thinking 'who the hell are the guys" the way that we look at the 1960's celtics now, if the 1960's Celtics broke up before they started winning.
Ballings7
RealGM
Posts: 24,110
And1: 1,979
Joined: Jan 04, 2006

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#132 » by Ballings7 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:41 am



Okay,

That can be done selectively with several others as well, like Chris Paul or Steve Nash or Amare or Carmelo, etc.

But for Harden,

Other than the Spurs series in 2012, where he indeed matched up well against their defensive line-ups (and was a beneficiary, but he made the shots and plays) -- he lost all the series above, or they were in the 1st/2nd round -- so at the end of the day it just adds to his individual ability at regular-season and early post-season levels (where he's an MVP candidate yearly and a world-beater offensively (still questionable and below-average defensively) ), but not actual success or progressive capabilities on teams, in the latter part of post-season.

Like, how come he played so great before Game 6 against the Spurs? But in G6 -- without Kawhi (in G6) --- he doesn't get it done or even play well, in a loss, at home?? Just inexcusable really.

Also, conveniently overlook the 2012 Finals after the Spurs series where he still wasn't a leading focal point of the defense, and didn't have even almost the series he had against San Antonio or Dallas.
The Playoffs don't care about your Analytics
Rednation91
Pro Prospect
Posts: 803
And1: 524
Joined: Jul 05, 2016
     

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#133 » by Rednation91 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:58 am

Ballings7 wrote:


Okay,

That can be done selectively with several others as well, like Chris Paul or Steve Nash or Amare or Carmelo, etc.

But for Harden,

Other than the Spurs series in 2012, where he indeed matched up well against their defensive line-ups (and was a beneficiary, but he made the shots and plays) -- he lost all the series above, or they were in the 1st/2nd round -- so at the end of the day it just adds to his individual ability at regular-season and early post-season levels (where he's an MVP candidate yearly and a world-beater offensively (still questionable and below-average defensively) ), but not actual success or progressive capabilities on teams, in the latter part of post-season.

Like, how come he played so great before Game 6 against the Spurs? But in G6 -- without Kawhi (in G6) --- he doesn't get it done or even play well, in a loss, at home?? Just inexcusable really.

Also, conveniently overlook the 2012 Finals after the Spurs series where he still wasn't a leading focal point of the defense, and didn't have even almost the series he had against San Antonio or Dallas.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that defenses load up on harden in the playoffs and when that happens, it makes it tough for ANY LONE STAR to succeed. For example, look at curry in 13-14 when he had no Kerr system and Dray wasn't an all star yet.
Curry PO's 13-14
+6mpg
44%fg(-3.1% from rs)
38.6% 3pt(-3.8% from rs)
18.8 PER(24.1 PER in RS)
59.9 TS%(-1.1% from RS)
53.4 efg%(-3.2% from rs)
GreatWhiteStiff
RealGM
Posts: 15,263
And1: 12,684
Joined: Oct 17, 2011
Location: Overusing finna
 

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#134 » by GreatWhiteStiff » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:08 am

LivingLegend wrote:
ThatBoyNick wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:Not hating on him Im just pointing out he is a very inefficient player.


Dude, you are VERY wrong.


lol cmon man, Im not saying it makes him a bad player or anything but there are 3 things that clearly stick out about James Hardens game in a nutshell. 1) Turnovers 2) Low% volume scoring 3) below average defense.

He is a incredible scorer and finisher, but efficient is not a word in the top 20 I dont think anybody would use to describe his game.

He shoots a league high 21 shots per game and 11 threes. He better be scoring 30+ with those numbers.


I was raving about his efficiency before people realized he was a star (though he had been playing like one already). HIs efficiency is outstanding and that goes back to OKC, when he was almost traded for Jonas Valanciunas.
Image

Let's playin for 9th!

"OG puts the clamps on point guards like Trae Young." -DelAbbot
karkinos
Head Coach
Posts: 6,285
And1: 2,060
Joined: Nov 06, 2009

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#135 » by karkinos » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:17 am

LivingLegend wrote:lol cmon man, Im not saying it makes him a bad player or anything but there are 3 things that clearly stick out about James Hardens game in a nutshell. 1) Turnovers 2) Low% volume scoring 3) below average defense.

He is a incredible scorer and finisher, but efficient is not a word in the top 20 I dont think anybody would use to describe his game.

He shoots a league high 21 shots per game and 11 threes. He better be scoring 30+ with those numbers.


and he is...his scoring average is 32ppg. i mean, how many ppg were you thinking was averaging this year? :lol:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html
NBA Fan 1234
RealGM
Posts: 48,653
And1: 28,365
Joined: Jul 16, 2009

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#136 » by NBA Fan 1234 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:26 am

kayman3 wrote:
Knickstape1214 wrote:
kayman3 wrote:
Hey, I'm not authorised to send PMs.


Can you confirm what I asked in the PM at least?

Make a post on the feedback forum and you should get access.


Yeah, that's because my first username was kinda complicated and I couldn't remember it. I thought I lost the account for good so made an another one, then found the username after. Wasn't anything intentional tho.


You've been using the other account to and-1 posts...you can't have two accounts.
kayman3
Ballboy
Posts: 23
And1: 40
Joined: Nov 10, 2017

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#137 » by kayman3 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:27 am

Knickstape1214 wrote:
kayman3 wrote:
Knickstape1214 wrote:
Can you confirm what I asked in the PM at least?

Make a post on the feedback forum and you should get access.


Yeah, that's because my first username was kinda complicated and I couldn't remember it. I thought I lost the account for good so made an another one, then found the username after. Wasn't anything intentional tho.


You've been using the other account to and-1 posts...you can't have two accounts.


You can delete my first account if that's the policy. Again, wasn't intentional.
ThatBoyNick
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,677
And1: 3,629
Joined: Jul 12, 2014
 

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#138 » by ThatBoyNick » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:23 am

LivingLegend wrote:
ThatBoyNick wrote:
LivingLegend wrote:Not hating on him Im just pointing out he is a very inefficient player.


Dude, you are VERY wrong.


lol cmon man, Im not saying it makes him a bad player or anything but there are 3 things that clearly stick out about James Hardens game in a nutshell. 1) Turnovers 2) Low% volume scoring 3) below average defense.

He is a incredible scorer and finisher, but efficient is not a word in the top 20 I dont think anybody would use to describe his game.

He shoots a league high 21 shots per game and 11 threes. He better be scoring 30+ with those numbers.


1. He's averaging over a 2-1 assit to turnover ratio while leading the league in scoring as well as being 2nd in assist. Do some reasearch, that is GOOD.

2. Again, I can't tell if your trolling or what, Harden has ELITE scoring effeciency. He's not just average, he's not just good, he's ELITE, one of the most effecient offensive players in NBA history.

3. This season he's an average defender, check all the advanced stats.

You are either trolling or are seriously confused on how to evaluate NBA stats.
User avatar
azcatz11
RealGM
Posts: 31,226
And1: 34,936
Joined: Apr 13, 2017
Location: Phoenix
     

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#139 » by azcatz11 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:40 am

Zingod wrote:He always chokes when it matters.

Arizona state
Okc 2012 finals
Meltdown last year
Etc etc


He didn't choke at ASU. He's one of the best players ever in the pac 10.
Praying for Burrow
TooBad
Starter
Posts: 2,231
And1: 1,193
Joined: Mar 03, 2016

Re: Harden is the best player in the NBA 

Post#140 » by TooBad » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:04 am

Fearthebeard wrote:Yeah, I said it come at me with all you got. Rockets have the best record in league. Now you can see what harden can do with a top 10 player on his team in his prime. Move over everyone else. Harden and the Rockets time is now. Fear the beard.



He is one of the worst defenders in the league how the f*ck could he be better than guys who do both?

Return to The General Board