Better player next season: Simmons or Doncic?

[memento]

Doncic, because he is overall just better bb player. He is not afraid to take responsibility of taking a shot when nedeed more like he is better when game is on the line. His efficiency in crunch times stats proves that.

Simmons becomes liability in crunch time because there is no shooting threat from him and good defense like Raptors one can exploit that.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Is he not still on his rookie deal??? Doesn't his extension kick in next summer

and Ben doesn't guard PGs so yea he is a point forward

True his max doesn’t kick in until next summer. But regarding position, point forward is typically used to describe forwards that facilitate half court offense without dribbling the ball up the court. Ben is a true PG that can guard 5 positions.

How is he a true pg if he doesn't guard pgs??? You are the position you defend, not the position your coach puts you in on offense. When does Ben guard the PG??

I just said he guards 5 positions, which includes PG. Simmons and Richardson are our primary perimeter defenders.

Either way I agree with HBK that PG is a function of offense, hence Magic Johnson being universally recognized as a PG.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Okay crap joke but in a playoff situation, it's too easy to game-plan against Simmons, he's not even comfortable taking a wide open mid-range jumper on a consistent basis, until he shows that on the floor, which I don't believe he will this season given that he just got paid the max, he's just fine dishing it off, I don't want to speculate, but I want to know WHY?

Ben has been working his ass off on his jumper this offseason.

As for the playoffs/game planning argument, I think he trumped that by being a clear net positive on one of the best playoff teams. People are just mad he didn’t score more, which he didn’t have to playing with Embiid/Butler/Tobias/Redick.

I'm sure he's worked on it every offseason since he's been in the league, but I don't see any progress or signs he will shoot, see him in scrimmage videos and he plays the same damn way, it's frustrating.

To your playoff point, yes he is a positive but they had Butler, now they need to be the primary playmaker, and without the jumpshot, he's just mediocre in that role; they need him to step up, and not be a clog in the half-court

That's the thing, he really didn't. It wasn't a priority for him until this year.

[moistnessfiscal]

Ben has been working his ass off on his jumper this offseason.

As for the playoffs/game planning argument, I think he trumped that by being a clear net positive on one of the best playoff teams. People are just mad he didn’t score more, which he didn’t have to playing with Embiid/Butler/Tobias/Redick.

I'm sure he's worked on it every offseason since he's been in the league, but I don't see any progress or signs he will shoot, see him in scrimmage videos and he plays the same damn way, it's frustrating.

To your playoff point, yes he is a positive but they had Butler, now they need to be the primary playmaker, and without the jumpshot, he's just mediocre in that role; they need him to step up, and not be a clog in the half-court

That's the thing, he really didn't. It wasn't a priority for him until this year.

Out of curiosity, how do you know?

[FlatearthZorro]

Luka. Put him on 76ers instead of Ben and it's a CHAMPIONSHIP.

Agreed. Imo, the match between Embiid and Simmons ain't too great. It could change if Simmons starts shooting, but imo both need the ball in their hands, neither is good at spotting up(Embiid hits them here and there, but when he misses it's some heavy bricks), and they kinda shrink the floor for one another. What the C's did last year and this was double Embiid at times using Simmons' man. Doncic would fit there sooo much better.

I'd take Doncic for now, but both have room for improvement.

[BigSleep333]

im not the biggest simmons fan cause of his poor shooting but that voting result is ridiculously lopsided.

yall ignore defense

[GeorgeMarcus]

I'm sure he's worked on it every offseason since he's been in the league, but I don't see any progress or signs he will shoot, see him in scrimmage videos and he plays the same damn way, it's frustrating.

To your playoff point, yes he is a positive but they had Butler, now they need to be the primary playmaker, and without the jumpshot, he's just mediocre in that role; they need him to step up, and not be a clog in the half-court

That's the thing, he really didn't. It wasn't a priority for him until this year.

Out of curiosity, how do you know?

After the Celtics series last year, Ben was asked if he planned to work on his jump shot. He laughed at the question and responded with "I'm going to work on being a better player" which demonstrated to me he wasn't taking it seriously.

After the Raptors series this year, both he and Brett Brown listed his jump shot as an offseason priority. That was before any of these jump shot videos started coming out. No, shooting in an empty gym is not the same as shooting in the game, but the fact that it's a priority for him is the important difference.

[GeorgeMarcus]

im not the biggest simmons fan cause of his poor shooting but that voting result is ridiculously lopsided.

yall ignore defense

It's a marriage between Euro-love and anti-Simmons sentiment

[TheNG]

Comparing Doncic to Simmons is like comparing Jordan to LeBron

[SappySkunk]

Two sides of the ball. Lets see where lukas athleticism takes him. If he becomes a 2 way player, he's way more offensively talented. Simmons is a 6'10 pass 1st point fwd with elite defense. Different styles, but i believe simmons has way more 2 way potential, but luka has better closing ability. I voted ben, but i enjoy both players.

[moistnessfiscal]

That's the thing, he really didn't. It wasn't a priority for him until this year.

Out of curiosity, how do you know?

After the Celtics series last year, Ben was asked if he planned to work on his jump shot. He laughed at the question and responded with "I'm going to work on being a better player" which demonstrated to me he wasn't taking it seriously.

After the Raptor's series this year, both he and Brett Brown listed his jump shot as an offseason priority. That was before any of these jump shot videos started coming out. No, shooting in an empty gym is not the same as shooting in the game, but the fact that it's a priority for him is the important difference.

Okay, all that being said, he still won't be an efficient shooter, the free-throw rate is a justifiable precedent and learning to shoot off the dribble takes time. I believe you that he's placed it as a priority, but one offseason Isn't enough, he's still too young to accept drastic change, with the style of play so entrenched in his mind, I think it'll take him a couple more years to adapt. Shooting 30% from three and bricking pull-up mid-ranges is what's going to happen next season if he decides to shoot them, I think this is the most realistic expectation for him and I hope we can agree upon that. Just taking them isn't enough.

[LKN]

If Simmons really hasn't made his shooting a real priority until now that is a huge indictment of him and/or the Sixers organization. I mean I honestly find that hard to believe. How the hell could he not be working on perhaps the most important skill for any perimeter player?

[moistnessfiscal]

If Simmons really hasn't made his shooting a real priority until now that is a huge indictment of him and/or the Sixers organization. I mean I honestly find that hard to believe. How the hell could he not be working on perhaps the most important skill for any perimeter player?

100% agree. Spends too much time courting the Kardashians and dude doesn't care much about ball, how much has he actually improved since college, one could argue minimal progression, which is a shame because he's gifted

[GeorgeMarcus]

Out of curiosity, how do you know?

After the Celtics series last year, Ben was asked if he planned to work on his jump shot. He laughed at the question and responded with "I'm going to work on being a better player" which demonstrated to me he wasn't taking it seriously.

After the Raptor's series this year, both he and Brett Brown listed his jump shot as an offseason priority. That was before any of these jump shot videos started coming out. No, shooting in an empty gym is not the same as shooting in the game, but the fact that it's a priority for him is the important difference.

Okay, all that being said, he still won't be an efficient shooter, the free-throw rate is a justifiable precedent and learning to shoot off the dribble takes time. I believe you that he's placed it as a priority, but one offseason Isn't enough, he's still too young to accept drastic change, with the style of play so entrenched in his mind, I think it'll take him a couple more years to adapt. Shooting 30% from three and bricking pull-up mid-ranges is what's going to happen next season if he decides to shoot them, I think this is the most realistic expectation for him and I hope we can agree upon that.

Bruce Bowen shot 44.1% from 3 the same year he shot 40.4% from the line. More than any other part of basketball, jump shooting can be improved with practice. We are seeing that more and more, especially with modern bigs who have been tasked with spreading the court. I've been preaching "incremental progress" for Ben, so 30% from 3 would be a welcomed improvement in my book. That said I see no reason to cap my expectations at "bricking pull-up mid-range" jumpers.

[Clyde Frazier]

If doncic is better this season that isn't necessarily a slight to Simmons.

[TheProfessor]

Luka "Jesus" Doncic. I am a big Simmons fan, I just think 1) Simmons is playing the wrong position 2) He and Embiid will never coexist. Put Simmons on a team like ATL, Minni and let him play the 4 or 5 or even trade him to Denver for Murray and he becomes one of the best players in the nba. But Simmons in PHI<<Doncic in Dallas.

[TheBallsDeeper]

True his max doesn’t kick in until next summer. But regarding position, point forward is typically used to describe forwards that facilitate half court offense without dribbling the ball up the court. Ben is a true PG that can guard 5 positions.

How is he a true pg if he doesn't guard pgs??? You are the position you defend, not the position your coach puts you in on offense. When does Ben guard the PG??

I just said he guards 5 positions, which includes PG. Simmons and Richardson are our primary perimeter defenders.

Either way I agree with HBK that PG is a function of offense, hence Magic Johnson being universally recognized as a PG.

There are two problems with DreamTeam09's post.

(1) Simmons does guard point guards, and 3 other positions, depending on matchups. Was he a point guard in the Series against Brooklyn when he dominated Russel? Under "he is what he gaurds", is he a PG, SG, SF and PF all in the one game, or does it vary game to game what you classify him as?

(2) According to DreamTeam09 - Robert Covington is a point guard.

[moistnessfiscal]

After the Celtics series last year, Ben was asked if he planned to work on his jump shot. He laughed at the question and responded with "I'm going to work on being a better player" which demonstrated to me he wasn't taking it seriously.

After the Raptor's series this year, both he and Brett Brown listed his jump shot as an offseason priority. That was before any of these jump shot videos started coming out. No, shooting in an empty gym is not the same as shooting in the game, but the fact that it's a priority for him is the important difference.

Okay, all that being said, he still won't be an efficient shooter, the free-throw rate is a justifiable precedent and learning to shoot off the dribble takes time. I believe you that he's placed it as a priority, but one offseason Isn't enough, he's still too young to accept drastic change, with the style of play so entrenched in his mind, I think it'll take him a couple more years to adapt. Shooting 30% from three and bricking pull-up mid-ranges is what's going to happen next season if he decides to shoot them, I think this is the most realistic expectation for him and I hope we can agree upon that.

Bruce Bowen shot 44.1% from 3 the same year he shot 40.4% from the line. More than any other part of basketball, jump shooting can be improved with practice. We are seeing that more and more, especially with modern bigs who have been tasked with spreading the court. I've been preaching "incremental progress" for Ben, so 30% from 3 would be a welcomed improvement in my book. That said I see no reason to cap my expectations at "bricking pull-up mid-range" jumpers.

Yes, but Bruce Bowen has had a track record of making three-pointers at a decent rate before that season, Ben has no such track record and all other indicators do not point towards him having the season Bruce had. What you have pointed out is anomalous and is not completely fitting to the context of Ben's situation. Yes, there is reason to not cap expectation to the aforementioned limits, but I find it highly optimistic to the point of impracticable. Would like to hear what you thinking he will realistically average next season and his %'s.

[RoyceDa59]

I will go against the grain here and say Simmons.


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[Duke4life831]

If Simmons really hasn't made his shooting a real priority until now that is a huge indictment of him and/or the Sixers organization. I mean I honestly find that hard to believe. How the hell could he not be working on perhaps the most important skill for any perimeter player?

Because the reports on him putting in a brand new dedication to his jumper pops up like every single year. I remember prior to his year at LSU, all the talk was about his bad jumper and all the talk was he was spending all summer on it and it was going to be a weapon. We all saw how that played out. Then I remember the talks of him missing his first year and the talks was he has even more time now to work on his jumper since he came back by like February but they decided to sit him for the rest of the year. Then last year it was a bunch of videos of him shooting 3s in practice and in pickup games and so on.

This happens basically every year for almost every player when it comes to their weaknesses (unless you're Jabari Parker and come right out with it and say you don't care about defense). If its a player that has been in bad shape, we hear how hard he's been hitting the gym over the summer. If he is injury prone we hear how this is the healthiest he's ever been. If its a question with his drive, they talk about how he lived in the gym all summer.