Replace Lebron with Peak Kawhi on the 2009 & 2010 Cavs

[HBK_Kliq_33]

I haven’t even participated in this thread or the other one. What is my agenda?

In the past, I remember you have implied that raptors played better with Leonard on the bench in a playoff game thread. You are biased against kawhi and too high on Lebron from what I can tell. Leonard is definitely not on your favorite player list. Besides that you are a good poster for the most part.

LeBron is, at worst, the 2nd best player of all time. It's hard to be "too high" on him. None of us dislike Kawhi. I honestly don't care about him at all. But when you come in making the outrageous Kawhi claims that you consistently make, people are going to push back.

Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, Kawhi all have comparable peaks in the last 30 years. The big four.

[70sFan]

I haven’t even participated in this thread or the other one. What is my agenda?

In the past, I remember you have implied that raptors played better with Leonard on the bench in a playoff game thread. You are biased against kawhi and too high on Lebron from what I can tell. Leonard is definitely not on your favorite player list. Besides that you are a good poster for the most part.

LeBron is, at worst, the 2nd best player of all time. It's hard to be "too high" on him. None of us dislike Kawhi. I honestly don't care about him at all. But when you come in making the outrageous Kawhi claims that you consistently make, people are going to push back.

Hold on, don't do that. There are quite a few players with very reasonable cases over James - Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Duncan, even Wilt. Kawhi isn't one of them but don't exaggarate.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

They easily win the Championship both seasons. Kawhi really does make players better. he is a great play maker. He likes to get into the defense, draw the triple teams then pass out and let the ball skip around to the most open closest shot. He makes his teams better at passing. There is more 4-5 pass possessions which build team moral and success. There are more ways to create offense than just one pass and one shot.

also Kawhi is Dennis Rodman level on Defense, He can shut down all 5 positions. If he is guarding a 7'2 player then he coaches his centers in a nice way even on how to shut them down. Embiid is a 27 ppg center and averaged 17.6 on 37% shooting in the second round of the playoffs.

I never heard about the coaches his centers thing but the rest of this is accurate.

[infinite11285]

Is this a serious thread?

In that Magic ECF, LeBron averaged 39 ppg / 8 rbs / 8 ast / 44 mins / 59 TS% / 52 eFG% / 39 USG%

There's NO version of Kawhi that even comes remotely close to that kind of output.

[Bringyourgame]

Is this a serious thread?

In that Magic ECF, LeBron averaged 39 ppg / 8 rbs / 8 ast / 44 mins / 59 TS% / 52 eFG% / 39 USG%

There's NO version of Kawhi that even comes remotely close to that kind of output.

It's how many points you keep the other team from scoring. D. Howard is not averaging 25 / 15 and 15FTA on a Leonard Led team. Sorry it's just not happening. Also Hedo is not putting up 19 / 5 / 5 on Leonard. sorry.

[infinite11285]

Is this a serious thread?

In that Magic ECF, LeBron averaged 39 ppg / 8 rbs / 8 ast / 44 mins / 59 TS% / 52 eFG% / 39 USG%

There's NO version of Kawhi that even comes remotely close to that kind of output.

It's how many points you keep the other team from scoring. D. Howard is not averaging 25 / 15 and 15FTA on a Leonard Led team. Sorry it's just not happening. Also Hedo is not putting up 19 / 5 / 5 on Leonard. sorry.

How many Magic players is Kawhi guarding in this hypothetical? It's just a Kawhi for James swap. Kawhi by himself is going to make the likes of Delonte West, Varejao, Mo Williams, and Boobie Gibson able to guard D. Howard, Hedo, Lewis, and Pietrus?

Leonard also isn't putting up the points LeBron did, nor is he creating for everyone else, so the Cavs end up getting swept rather than losing in 6.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Is this a serious thread?

In that Magic ECF, LeBron averaged 39 ppg / 8 rbs / 8 ast / 44 mins / 59 TS% / 52 eFG% / 39 USG%

There's NO version of Kawhi that even comes remotely close to that kind of output.

Dwight is soft. Kawhi averaged 35/10/4 63% TS and 41PPG in 3/4 wins vs embiid and butler 76ers.

76ers were more stacked overall than that magjc team. Butler is more impactful than Rashard Lewis. Butler carried towels to a top 5 offense and defense by himself. 76ers wing defenders are superior over magic wing defenders and Embiid is arguably the best defensive player in the NBA and a much better offensive player than Dwight ever was.

[infinite11285]

Is this a serious thread?

In that Magic ECF, LeBron averaged 39 ppg / 8 rbs / 8 ast / 44 mins / 59 TS% / 52 eFG% / 39 USG%

There's NO version of Kawhi that even comes remotely close to that kind of output.

Dwight is soft. Kawhi averaged 35/10/4 63% TS and 41PPG in 3/4 wins vs embiid and butler 76ers.

76ers were more stacked overall than that magjc team. Butler is more impactful than Rashard Lewis. Butler carried towels to a top 5 offense and defense by himself. 76ers wing defenders are superior over magic wing defenders and Embiid is arguably the best defensive player in the NBA and a much better offensive player than Dwight ever was.

2009 Dwight was one of the best players in the league. Not only was he a DPOY in 2009, but he also gave you 25/12 nightly. He was no scrub. Lewis put up 18/6, Hedo put up 18/6/6, and Pietrus and Alston both averaged double figures. Let's not pretend they sucked.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

LeBron is, at worst, the 2nd best player of all time. It's hard to be "too high" on him. None of us dislike Kawhi. I honestly don't care about him at all. But when you come in making the outrageous Kawhi claims that you consistently make, people are going to push back.

Hold on, don't do that. There are quite a few players with very reasonable cases over James - Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Duncan, even Wilt. Kawhi isn't one of them but don't exaggarate.

If Kawhi wins a Championship in LA then he is in serious talks as top 3 all time.

A championship? I see 2-4 championships coming.

[ardee]

There is literally nothing Kawhi does better than LeBron except maybe midrange game. Two different classes of player.

Maybe win like 48-50 games both years. Probably like the 4th seed, meaning they lose to Orlando in the second round both years.

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[infinite11285]

It's how many points you keep the other team from scoring. D. Howard is not averaging 25 / 15 and 15FTA on a Leonard Led team. Sorry it's just not happening. Also Hedo is not putting up 19 / 5 / 5 on Leonard. sorry.

How many Magic players is Kawhi guarding in this hypothetical? It's just a Kawhi for James swap. Kawhi by himself is going to make the likes of Delonte West, Varejao, Mo Williams, and Boobie Gibson able to guard D. Howard, Hedo, Lewis, and Pietrus?

Leonard also isn't putting up the points LeBron did, nor is he creating for everyone else, so the Cavs end up getting swept rather than losing in 6.

You are being biased in your writings acting like the Cavs had nothing. West probably wouldn't play. He doesn't fit with Kawhi He is replaceable by the next guy on the Bench like Danny Green.

The same Danny Green that was in the D-League less than two years later? He nearly was out of the league altogether if not for a massive turnaround in Reno. The Magic had 5 key guys that contributed on both ends, and your only rebuttal is a rookie Danny Green?

Kawhi defended and shut down Butler and Simmons. he also helped out on doubles every time with Embiid. They would switch him back and forth from Butler and Simmons depending on if they made a shot or two then they would put Kawhi on them and they wouldn't even want to shoot anymore.
Kawhi guarded 3 players simultaneously?

You are underestimating Kawhi. Kawhi was dribble and has moves also he does pass alot. most of his passes get skipped again to a dive man or a 16 foot jumper. So he gets the hockey assist. This is actually a better form of passing.

Kawhi is really 3-0 in the Finals if not for a mistake by Popovich. Also he was up 30 points on Durant, Curry, Thompson, Green and Iggy.

also ask GS who the best player they have ever played. I remember one game in the Regular season where Kawhi and the Spurs were up 25 on the Prime Durant Warriors and they needed 10 Straight threes to get back in the game. Relying on 10 straight made 3s isn't going to win most of the time.

This is so subjective it doesn't merit a response. And yet, you allege I'm being overly biased? Pretending as if Kawhi even comes close to the playmaking responsibility James had on those Cavs teams is a pure delusion. Believing he could have similar success to James in those situations is pure insanity.

[thebigbird]

In the past, I remember you have implied that raptors played better with Leonard on the bench in a playoff game thread. You are biased against kawhi and too high on Lebron from what I can tell. Leonard is definitely not on your favorite player list. Besides that you are a good poster for the most part.

LeBron is, at worst, the 2nd best player of all time. It's hard to be "too high" on him. None of us dislike Kawhi. I honestly don't care about him at all. But when you come in making the outrageous Kawhi claims that you consistently make, people are going to push back.

Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, Kawhi all have comparable peaks in the last 30 years. The big four.

Lmao. Dude, just stop. This is why people "hate" on Kawhi.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

LeBron is, at worst, the 2nd best player of all time. It's hard to be "too high" on him. None of us dislike Kawhi. I honestly don't care about him at all. But when you come in making the outrageous Kawhi claims that you consistently make, people are going to push back.

Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, Kawhi all have comparable peaks in the last 30 years. The big four.

Lmao. Dude, just stop. This is why people "hate" on Kawhi.

732 points, led team in rebounds and steals, led finals starting five in blocks. How many players have done all this? Being able to score that much points in the playoffs on that type of efficiency, lead his team in rebounds and steals, all while winning the title. Never been done before.

[thebigbird]

Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, Kawhi all have comparable peaks in the last 30 years. The big four.

Lmao. Dude, just stop. This is why people "hate" on Kawhi.

732 points, led team in rebounds and steals, led finals starting five in blocks. How many players have done all this? Being able to score that much points in the playoffs on that type of efficiency, lead his team in rebounds and steals, all while winning the title. Never been done before.

Cool. LeBron led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in the 2016 finals. Kawhi beat a decimated Warriors team. Congrats. Stop overrating the crap out of him and people will stop hating on him.

[70sFan]

LeBron is, at worst, the 2nd best player of all time. It's hard to be "too high" on him. None of us dislike Kawhi. I honestly don't care about him at all. But when you come in making the outrageous Kawhi claims that you consistently make, people are going to push back.

Hold on, don't do that. There are quite a few players with very reasonable cases over James - Russell, Kareem, Jordan, Duncan, even Wilt. Kawhi isn't one of them but don't exaggarate.

If Kawhi wins a Championship in LA then he is in serious talks as top 3 all time.

Not even close, he wouldn't touch Russell or Kareem even with the best season of his career.

I say this as someone who hopes Clippers will at least get to the finals.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Lmao. Dude, just stop. This is why people "hate" on Kawhi.

732 points, led team in rebounds and steals, led finals starting five in blocks. How many players have done all this? Being able to score that much points in the playoffs on that type of efficiency, lead his team in rebounds and steals, all while winning the title. Never been done before.

Cool. LeBron led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in the 2016 finals. Kawhi beat a decimated Warriors team. Congrats. Stop overrating the crap out of him and people will stop hating on him.

LeBron had Draymond out a game, Kawhi had Klay out a game and 3 quarters. Draymond is more valuable than Klay. Kawhi won in 6, LeBron it took 7. Kawhi was only 27 years old and already matched LeBron's career defining accomplishment in beating Warriors.

[mcraft]

732 points, led team in rebounds and steals, led finals starting five in blocks. How many players have done all this? Being able to score that much points in the playoffs on that type of efficiency, lead his team in rebounds and steals, all while winning the title. Never been done before.

Cool. LeBron led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in the 2016 finals. Kawhi beat a decimated Warriors team. Congrats. Stop overrating the crap out of him and people will stop hating on him.

LeBron had Draymond out a game, Kawhi had Klay out a game and 3 quarters. Draymond is more valuable than Klay. Kawhi won in 6, LeBron it took 7. Kawhi was only 27 years old and already matched LeBron's career defining accomplishment in beating Warriors.

What about that Kevin Durant guy?

[infinite11285]

ok buddy, Tell me the evidence where Kawhi is not a winner and can't beat a washed up Celtics team or
hedo turkulo. Maybe you have the evidence that Kawhi is a loser. You are biased just cause he only average around 10 ppg as a rookie so you have him ranked from that. Some players get better. That's actually the type you want on a team.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said Kawhi was a loser in any capacity. Stay on topic of the thread at hand.

Again, in that Magic ECF, LeBron AVERAGED:
39 ppg / 8 rbs / 8 ast / 44 mins / 59 TS% / 52 eFG% / 39 USG%. And he was 2nd in DPOY voting that same year.

Those are facts.

Compare that output to any from Kawhi in any one series. You choose. Compare the stat lines, and come back to me.

Wilt averaged 50 ppg and still lost in the playoffs. an individual's ppg average doesn't equate to wins. The question is would Leonard win not whether he would average 40ppg or not. you are the one changing the question.

Jordan averaged 50 ppg in the playoffs one season and still lost.

Kawhi is just a winner and finds ways to win.

I didn't ask you about Jordan or Wilt.

The topic of the thread is how the 2009 & 2010 Cavs would fair if you swapped LeBron for "peak" Kawhi. Your argument is, "Kawhi would find a way" while providing zero evidence of such a claim. It's pure conjecture. If Kawhi, "always finds ways to win" despite all odds then what's the excuse for series he's lost? The notion he, himself, can overcome entire teams is nonsense and defies reality. He would lose against the Magic in 2009 AND the Celtics in 2010.

[kayess]

UBF has lost his goddamned mind. That team, with Peak Kawhi, would be nasty on defense?

To be fair, he hasn't found a way to shoehorn Kobe into this yet (unlike that WOAT post where he goes "yeah GOAT is subjective, there's different GOATs" and proceeds to drop Kobe as being the guy with the GOAT skills - like people wouldn't notice and just agree because the rest of his list wasn't too bad), but this is still one of the worst takes I've ever seen from him.

[70sFan]

If Kawhi wins a Championship in LA then he is in serious talks as top 3 all time.

Not even close, he wouldn't touch Russell or Kareem even with the best season of his career.

I say this as someone who hopes Clippers will at least get to the finals.

He's better than Kareem and Russell. There were 2 teams in the 60's. One was stacked and the other slightly less stacked.
in the 70's the NBA was not as good as now.

also it's not about invididual seasons or games. It's about the Complete Package. The totality of their careers.

Nothing but opinions and lies. NBA was never smaller than 8 teams and Russell won in a league with 14 teams.


Kareem was the best player in the world for 12 seasons, Kawhi at best has one season like that so far. So if you mean totality of their careers, then the gap is even larger and one ring won't change that.