PG: Kemba Rises From the Ashes. Knicks Still Ass

[god shammgod]

Players are human and being put in the wrong role is going to have negative consequences.

And he is getting paid what a 3rd option should be paid. But is asked to carry a team. Which he isn't equipped to do.

i don't know. usually you want a 3rd option to hit some outside shots because they can't dominate the ball. he doesn't do that or play defense.

yup

I don't think it works that way. A 3rd option has to be more EFF with less looks. Randle isn't a C&S guy and he isn't a difference maker on defense. He thrives last year because he was very EFF with high usage. He know has **** EFF with high usage.

Its not automatic that as they take away his usage he will automatically become more EFF because his game is contested mid range shots...he made a lot of inefficient last year...maybe it was just a fluke.

kevin love and chris bosh had to just stand outside mostly once they became 3rd options. that's what randle would have to do with most teams. i guess he could be like draymond on golden state but he doesn't play defense like draymond and he doesn't have the passing iq. so now you need a center who shoots 3s, defends and can pass a bit and two guards who are great from 3. how much work do you have to do to build around this motherf*cker ? it aint worth it.

[mpharris36]

I think we have a rare instance where playing the young guys is our best win now move

yup but there are more politics in the NBA that we would like to acknowledge. The FO committed to a lot of these guys.

Its not like Thibs can just bench Fournier. He benched Walker because its probably the easiest contract to get out of. But guys like Fournier/Rose/Burks are all going to play because we have commitments to them.

Maybe you get spot minutes now from Grimes but we all know thibs is going to ride the vets. The only reason the young guys were player was thibs hand was forced.

I don't think this is something that will happen tomorrow, but I do think the FO has to be thinking about pivoting if we don't make it out of this soft stretch at .500 or better.

The FO drafted these guys. I bet they'd rather roll the dice with those guys than the vets.

I do think they will give Thibs until the deadline before they sell pieces off though.

Yeah but that would signal a pretty big tear down. If they do move Rose/Burks that would clearly open up mins for McBride and Grimes. And the defense would pick up for sure. But the offense would take a hit as well.

Also Fournier just isn't movable at this point with his contract and the way he defends. So he is here for the foreseeable future. That 3rd guaranteed year is a tough pill to swallow.

[Enzo954]

People who think trading Randle is going to be easy are the same who think the Knicks are going to lose enough to get a top lottery pick

Who said it was going to be easy? We expect those guys in the front office who get paid millions of dollars to figure it out and do their damn job.

You could be the best gm ever, but if there is no market you can’t create it

That's a cop out. There are teams who would want Randle. He'd be solid as a 3rd option on other teams. His play just doesn't mesh with where we're at right now. We have him as a #1 option, and we have a coach who doesn't put him in check.

[Im Coming Home]

Dude, go take a shower. You talking crazy now. It's bad but don't make it worse.

How would it make it worse?

We're not winning sh*t this year or next, and this would allow us to get Randle off the books. We could just play the kids and run and gun.

Trading for Wall is honestly logical, we would open up cap space not this summer upcoming but the next instead of being locked into Randle til 2026.

He makes almost double Randles salary and all Thibs will do is turn him into the new Randle. If you care about the kids you don't trade for yet another overpaid bust of a veteran.

Its all about the contract. You wanna pay Randle til 2026, or pay Wall for this season and next?

Could maybe even get rid of another contract too with it, like Fournier or something since Wall's contract is so expensive.

[Deeeez Knicks]

It’s a shame Kemba was made the escape goat. He is not the same but can still help a team.

[FutureKnicksGM]

Hes being asked to not kill our momentum every other play, and to play hard.

He is being asked to generate the offense on a team that lacks creators way too much.

That's a myth. The only thing you need to create offense in this league is pick and roll and the fact that yet again Noel,Taj and Mitch combine for 5 shot attempts tell you that it's something we don't employ. Most of Kemba and Fourniers shots tonight were shots you'd otherwise think are heat check shots and weren't necessarily a result of multiple passes and the defense scurrying around with the same confused look we had in the 4rth. No no no no no.


THIBS can't generate offense, his SYSTEM doesn't generate offense. If anything we have
Kemba
Rose
Quickley
Burks
Randle who all can create thier own offense if you were ok watching them iso all game. What this team lacks isn't shot creators, what we lack is a dynamic system of off ball movement, passing for the sake of finding the open man, any level of misdirection. So no, it's not that Randle lacks guys who can create so he's forced to. What's happening is he and Thibs are forcing the rest of the team to stand around, watch and if they're lucky get thier own chance to make something happen with 5 seconds left on the shot clock.


Don't perpetuate that bull.

Why can't you run a system of offball movement from a post up? Doesn't have to be from a pick and roll.

[mpharris36]

i don't know. usually you want a 3rd option to hit some outside shots because they can't dominate the ball. he doesn't do that or play defense.

yup

I don't think it works that way. A 3rd option has to be more EFF with less looks. Randle isn't a C&S guy and he isn't a difference maker on defense. He thrives last year because he was very EFF with high usage. He know has **** EFF with high usage.

Its not automatic that as they take away his usage he will automatically become more EFF because his game is contested mid range shots...he made a lot of inefficient last year...maybe it was just a fluke.

kevin love and chris bosh had to just stand outside mostly once they became 3rd options. that's what randle would have to do with most teams. i guess he could be like draymond on golden state but he doesn't play defense like draymond. so now you need a center who shoots 3s and defends and two guards who are great from 3. how much work do you have to do to build around this motherf*cker ? it aint worth it.

If you have to get that creative in terms of building around someone...he probably shouldn't be built around.

What separates Draymond is he captains one of the best defenses in the NBA. Randle couldn't get even 10% to that level if he tried.

Love is probably the best comp in terms of potential on court impact as a 3rd option in terms of pts and boards and solid assists.

But Love a sniper from 3 and a great C&S guy. You don't have to consistently guard randle when he doesn't have the ball because I don't think teams fear him from deep. Why would you? He has had one year his entire career of being above league avg 3 pt shooter. We paid him to hopefully build on last year...when it looks like last year seems to be just an anomaly with his success in terms of outside shots.

[GONYK]

yup but there are more politics in the NBA that we would like to acknowledge. The FO committed to a lot of these guys.

Its not like Thibs can just bench Fournier. He benched Walker because its probably the easiest contract to get out of. But guys like Fournier/Rose/Burks are all going to play because we have commitments to them.

Maybe you get spot minutes now from Grimes but we all know thibs is going to ride the vets. The only reason the young guys were player was thibs hand was forced.

I don't think this is something that will happen tomorrow, but I do think the FO has to be thinking about pivoting if we don't make it out of this soft stretch at .500 or better.

The FO drafted these guys. I bet they'd rather roll the dice with those guys than the vets.

I do think they will give Thibs until the deadline before they sell pieces off though.

Yeah but that would signal a pretty big tear down. If they do move Rose/Burks that would clearly open up mins for McBride and Grimes. And the defense would pick up for sure. But the offense would take a hit as well.

Also Fournier just isn't movable at this point with his contract and the way he defends. So he is here for the foreseeable future. That 3rd guaranteed year is a tough pill to swallow.

Trade Burks. I'm not sure about Rose.

Trade Kemba, obviously.

I think Fournier is movable. He's pretty established in the league and 30 games doesn't outweigh 7 years. At the same time we'd probably take back trash. So iffy on that this season.

I don't think it will be a full scale teardown unless there is a deal for Julius on the table (Fox?). Just enough to get the young guys on the floor.

[DowNY]

I hope we send Randle to Utah. Win win for us and his wife.

[Nazrmohamed]

You can get away with Kemba’s defense, if you had a lock down defender at the 2 spot, having Kemba’s defense with Fournier will never work. With that said I’d still let walker start because they need his offense, but who plays the #2 spot is the problem

But why give him that luxury? Cause once in 5 nights he can get hot by himself. Remember defense isn't the only problem with Kemba. He's not a skilled passer. So its not like he improves our offense. If one were to be tricked into thinking he could sustain play like tonight at best maybe he and Julius take turns playing hero ball.

[EnigmatiC]

Fire Leon Rose

And yet you love all the young players he drafted..so which is it?

Huh? I do?

[DowNY]

Thibs worn out his welcome too.
Usually it’s a 3 year cycle for him but he surprised us a year sooner, nice.

[knickstape4ever]

let's brainstorm....which teams could realistically be interested in Randle?

[EnigmatiC]

Fire Leon Rose

fire everyone. this team is going nowhere. hire a FO that is willing to rebuild b/c that's what we need

none of our vets are must-keeps. Randle isn't someone to build around. we need to accumulate picks and keep drafting and focusing on developing (rather than signing vets to take away their minutes) to find cornerstone players

Leon set us back 5 years with Randle and Fournier. He gambled and lost big on free agency. As I’ve said before the Perry extension was a dead giveaway he was clueless.

[knickstape4ever]

Thibs worn out his welcome too.
Usually it’s a 3 year cycle for him but he surprised us a year sooner, nice.

Read on Twitter

I didn't like this comment on Kemba. came across as cold

IMO they need to go rebuild/play the youth and he ain't the coach for a team going in that direction

[RHODEY]

Hes being asked to not kill our momentum every other play, and to play hard.

He is being asked to generate the offense on a team that lacks creators way too much.

That's a myth. The only thing you need to create offense in this league is pick and roll and the fact that yet again Noel,Taj and Mitch combine for 5 shot attempts tell you that it's something we don't employ. Most of Kemba and Fourniers shots tonight were shots you'd otherwise think are heat check shots and weren't necessarily a result of multiple passes and the defense scurrying around with the same confused look we had in the 4rth. No no no no no.


THIBS can't generate offense, his SYSTEM doesn't generate offense. If anything we have
Kemba
Rose
Quickley
Burks
Randle who all can create thier own offense if you were ok watching them iso all game. What this team lacks isn't shot creators, what we lack is a dynamic system of off ball movement, passing for the sake of finding the open man, any level of misdirection. So no, it's not that Randle lacks guys who can create so he's forced to. What's happening is he and Thibs are forcing the rest of the team to stand around, watch and if they're lucky get thier own chance to make something happen with 5 seconds left on the shot clock.


Don't perpetuate that bull.

This is an excellent post. And really the purpose is not to come down on any one player but to identify the strength and weaknesses of our squad. The system is flawed and Randle is a the main cog in this system. Our strength are depth and youth.

So fixing this starts with fixing the flawed system. Do we need to immediately trade Randle to accomplish this?...I don't think so. And that's good because from a PR perspective that would be bad. But his role in the offense has to change.


Do we need to fire Thibs?....I think so...maybe not mid season but if things don't change certainly after the season ends.

[Deeeez Knicks]

yup

I don't think it works that way. A 3rd option has to be more EFF with less looks. Randle isn't a C&S guy and he isn't a difference maker on defense. He thrives last year because he was very EFF with high usage. He know has **** EFF with high usage.

Its not automatic that as they take away his usage he will automatically become more EFF because his game is contested mid range shots...he made a lot of inefficient last year...maybe it was just a fluke.

kevin love and chris bosh had to just stand outside mostly once they became 3rd options. that's what randle would have to do with most teams. i guess he could be like draymond on golden state but he doesn't play defense like draymond. so now you need a center who shoots 3s and defends and two guards who are great from 3. how much work do you have to do to build around this motherf*cker ? it aint worth it.

If you have to get that creative in terms of building around someone...he probably shouldn't be built around.

What separates Draymond is he captains one of the best defenses in the NBA. Randle couldn't get even 10% to that level if he tried.

Love is probably the best comp in terms of potential on court impact as a 3rd option in terms of pts and boards and solid assists.

But Love a sniper from 3 and a great C&S guy. You don't have to consistently guard randle when he doesn't have the ball because I don't think teams fear him from deep. Why would you? He has had one year his entire career of being above league avg 3 pt shooter. We paid him to hopefully build on last year...when it looks like last year seems to be just an anomaly with his success in terms of outside shots.

Any way you look at it Randle has to go.

[EnigmatiC]

Worst part about all of this is we will be picking 8-12 for the next few years.

[GONYK]

I sincerely doubt Thibs is anywhere near the hot seat

[mpharris36]

I don't think this is something that will happen tomorrow, but I do think the FO has to be thinking about pivoting if we don't make it out of this soft stretch at .500 or better.

The FO drafted these guys. I bet they'd rather roll the dice with those guys than the vets.

I do think they will give Thibs until the deadline before they sell pieces off though.

Yeah but that would signal a pretty big tear down. If they do move Rose/Burks that would clearly open up mins for McBride and Grimes. And the defense would pick up for sure. But the offense would take a hit as well.

Also Fournier just isn't movable at this point with his contract and the way he defends. So he is here for the foreseeable future. That 3rd guaranteed year is a tough pill to swallow.

Trade Burks. I'm not sure about Rose.

Trade Kemba, obviously.

I think Fournier is movable. He's pretty established in the league and 30 games doesn't outweigh 7 years. At the same time we'd probably take back trash. So iffy on that this season.

I don't think it will be a full scale teardown unless there is a deal for Julius on the table (Fox?). Just enough to get the young guys on the floor.

Kemba is not in the rotation so that technically wouldn't open up minutes but I get your point. Burks can be moved and that would probably open up mins for Grimes or McBride.

Fournier is going to be really tough to move unless we are willing to take a bad contract back in return who is worse player just to open up minutes. That probably would make basketball sense but it also signals the FO is pulling the plug on the entire offseason they sold us on...they would have to swallow a lot of pride and a tough sell to an owner. Not sure you can have many more offseasons like that if you are trying to trade nearly every pieces you signs to multi year deals in year 1 of there deals because they aren't performing.