Donovan Mitchell could have had Jalen Brunson as a Teammate, What an Idiot! Fire his Agent/Advisors!!!

[cgf]

I will say there is a 'similarity' perception of this Knicks team to the team two years ago.

Both exceeded the expectations many had for them so how it ended crashing last time may subconsciously rub off on this season's team. Even though it's clearly apparent it's a much improved team there's this haunting doub about it echoing from the reminder of the past also including the past 20 years not just two years ago.

This isn't lost on Knicks fans, they live with the effects of battered fan syndrome every day.

The Cavs were in a batter position as a franchise to take the risk in giving up so much in draft capital for Mitchell and they also didn't have to give up any of their 3 top core players. All they need to do now is fill in the blanks with a couple of superglue role players as well as let some player development takes place to become contenders.

The Knicks couldn't take that risk going all in with where the franchise was at last summer, they had too many unanswered questions. Yet now they are further along than anticipated because of the rise to stardom by Brunson, some solid youth development and adding a couple of those superglue role players.

Even though the Knicks are just below the level of contender status since they are missing that one top dog player and well positioned to add that piece, they have to be careful. Pick the wrong player to add and it can wipe away this opportunity, there are some landmines out there they have to avoid. Don't blow it.

Luckily with all of their spare picks and our FO's tendency to trade back on draft night, the FO has the wiggle room to make some big moves and still maintain the flexibility to offer a KD-like package if those moves don't work.

Not arguing our FO should do this...but if they wanted to accelerate things next season they could conceivably trade Barrett + Grimes + Toppin + 3-5 of DAL / DET / MIL / 24 NYK / WSH FRPs for Lavine/Beal + Anunoby this summer, leaving them with something like this next season:

Brunson | Quickley | McBride
Lavine/Beal
Anunoby | Hart
Randle | MLE
Robinson | Hartenstein | Sims

and if that didn't prove to be enough for them to contend, the following summer they could offer Lavine/Beal + 25, 27, 29, 31 NYKs + all available swaps + whichever of those protected FRPs were left; for a true top 10 guy if one hit the tradeblock.

Again that's not what I'm hoping for...I'm praying for a cheaper 3&D guy like DFS, and Jaylen Brown if we do anything big...but our FO could afford an offseason like that this summer without losing their opportunity for a true title-caliber #1.

[stuporman]

I will say there is a 'similarity' perception of this Knicks team to the team two years ago.

Both exceeded the expectations many had for them so how it ended crashing last time may subconsciously rub off on this season's team. Even though it's clearly apparent it's a much improved team there's this haunting doub about it echoing from the reminder of the past also including the past 20 years not just two years ago.

This isn't lost on Knicks fans, they live with the effects of battered fan syndrome every day.

The Cavs were in a batter position as a franchise to take the risk in giving up so much in draft capital for Mitchell and they also didn't have to give up any of their 3 top core players. All they need to do now is fill in the blanks with a couple of superglue role players as well as let some player development takes place to become contenders.

The Knicks couldn't take that risk going all in with where the franchise was at last summer, they had too many unanswered questions. Yet now they are further along than anticipated because of the rise to stardom by Brunson, some solid youth development and adding a couple of those superglue role players.

Even though the Knicks are just below the level of contender status since they are missing that one top dog player and well positioned to add that piece, they have to be careful. Pick the wrong player to add and it can wipe away this opportunity, there are some landmines out there they have to avoid. Don't blow it.

Luckily with all of their spare picks and our FO's tendency to trade back on draft night, the FO has the wiggle room to make some big moves and still maintain the flexibility to offer a KD-like package if those moves don't work.

Not arguing our FO should do this...but if they wanted to accelerate things next season they could conceivably trade Barrett, Grimes, Toppin, + 3-5 of DAL / DET / MIL / 24 NYK / WSH FRPs for Lavine/Beal + Anunoby this summer, leaving them with something like this next season:

Brunson | Quickley | McBride
Lavine/Beal | Hart
Anunoby | MLE
Randle
Robinson | Hartenstein | Sims

and if that didn't prove to be enough for them to contend, the following summer they could offer Lavine/Beal + 25, 27, 29, 31 NYKs + all available swaps + whichever of those protected FRPs were left; for a true top 10 guy if one hit the tradeblock.

Again that's not what I'm hoping for...I'm praying for a cheaper 3&D guy like DFS, and Jaylen Brown if we do anything big...but our FO could afford an offseason like that this summer without losing their opportunity for a true title-caliber #1.

I said avoid the landmines...

A stack of picks along with youth for just turned 30 and bloated contract of Beal or injury plagued and bloated contract Lavine is exactly the thing the knicks need to avoid. Then having to trade first round picks into the next decade to fix the mistake as if there will be another team that will hand over their true number one option to take on that money without even more compensation isn't a position the Knicks want to be in.

There are a few more names I could add to that landmine list but I won't divulge them at the moment to not draw the ire of their fans on the GB.

The Knicks are in a great position right now, they'd have a better path to adding that player by continuing fiscal sensibility and allowing the $30mil+ in non-rotation salary to come off their books over the next two seasons. With the cap increase and being able to retain their own drafted players there is a chance they could sign and trade for a star FA while retaining much of their assets if they couldn't create enough space outright like they did this past summer.

FOs of other teams still appear to have a Knicks tax in thinking they can just pillage them in a trade and why feed into that perception, the Knicks aren't desperate anymore and should behave accordingly.

[cgf]

I will say there is a 'similarity' perception of this Knicks team to the team two years ago.

Both exceeded the expectations many had for them so how it ended crashing last time may subconsciously rub off on this season's team. Even though it's clearly apparent it's a much improved team there's this haunting doub about it echoing from the reminder of the past also including the past 20 years not just two years ago.

This isn't lost on Knicks fans, they live with the effects of battered fan syndrome every day.

The Cavs were in a batter position as a franchise to take the risk in giving up so much in draft capital for Mitchell and they also didn't have to give up any of their 3 top core players. All they need to do now is fill in the blanks with a couple of superglue role players as well as let some player development takes place to become contenders.

The Knicks couldn't take that risk going all in with where the franchise was at last summer, they had too many unanswered questions. Yet now they are further along than anticipated because of the rise to stardom by Brunson, some solid youth development and adding a couple of those superglue role players.

Even though the Knicks are just below the level of contender status since they are missing that one top dog player and well positioned to add that piece, they have to be careful. Pick the wrong player to add and it can wipe away this opportunity, there are some landmines out there they have to avoid. Don't blow it.

Luckily with all of their spare picks and our FO's tendency to trade back on draft night, the FO has the wiggle room to make some big moves and still maintain the flexibility to offer a KD-like package if those moves don't work.

Not arguing our FO should do this...but if they wanted to accelerate things next season they could conceivably trade Barrett, Grimes, Toppin, + 3-5 of DAL / DET / MIL / 24 NYK / WSH FRPs for Lavine/Beal + Anunoby this summer, leaving them with something like this next season:

Brunson | Quickley | McBride
Lavine/Beal | Hart
Anunoby | MLE
Randle
Robinson | Hartenstein | Sims

and if that didn't prove to be enough for them to contend, the following summer they could offer Lavine/Beal + 25, 27, 29, 31 NYKs + all available swaps + whichever of those protected FRPs were left; for a true top 10 guy if one hit the tradeblock.

Again that's not what I'm hoping for...I'm praying for a cheaper 3&D guy like DFS, and Jaylen Brown if we do anything big...but our FO could afford an offseason like that this summer without losing their opportunity for a true title-caliber #1.

I said avoid the landmines...

A stack of picks along with youth for just turned 30 and bloated contract of Beal or injury plagued and bloated contract Lavine is exactly the thing the knicks need to avoid. Then having to trade first round picks into the next decade to fix the mistake as if there will be another team that will hand over their true number one option to take on that money without even more compensation isn't a position the Knicks want to be in.

There are a few more names I could add to that landmine list but I won't divulge them at the moment to not draw the ire of their fans on the GB.

The Knicks are in a great position right now, they'd have a better path to adding that player by continuing fiscal sensibility and allowing the $30mil+ in non-rotation salary to come off their books over the next two seasons. With the cap increase and being able to retain their own drafted players there is a chance they could sign and trade for a star FA while retaining much of their assets if they couldn't create enough space just by themselves like they did this past summer.

FOs of other teams still appear to have a Knicks tax in thinking they can just pillage them in a trade and why feed into that perception, the Knicks aren't desperate anymore and should behave accordingly.

I'm not saying that our FO should do it.

It's not what I want our FO to do.

I'm not arguing for it.

...if we do anything big I'm hoping for Jaylen Brown, but I'd be thrilled if we just swapped Obi & one of our protected FRPs for someone like DFS, DeAndre Hunter, or Pat Williams.

Hopefully that clarifies my position I'm just saying that our FO could afford to spend big on improving the team for next season, and still be in great shape for that KD/Kawhi trade that they'd (almost certainly) still need to make at some point.

[Woodsanity]

Randle playing would be a win for the Cavs. He's predictable, one-dimensional, and the biggest playoff choker in the league this side of Harden and Embiid.

comparing a guy who had one play off appearance to two guys who have an extensive history of choking. y’all are hilarious

Yes but Randle's single playoff appearance was so horrendous that it may legitimately be the worst playoff dropoff in history.

Randle struggles without a competent PG and he is not a first option.

During those playoffs he had to be first option and had no real PG.

With Brunson his level of play is a lot higher than without Brunson.

Will he struggle again? Maybe but probably not nearly as bad if Brunson is healthy.

[stuporman]

Luckily with all of their spare picks and our FO's tendency to trade back on draft night, the FO has the wiggle room to make some big moves and still maintain the flexibility to offer a KD-like package if those moves don't work.

Not arguing our FO should do this...but if they wanted to accelerate things next season they could conceivably trade Barrett, Grimes, Toppin, + 3-5 of DAL / DET / MIL / 24 NYK / WSH FRPs for Lavine/Beal + Anunoby this summer, leaving them with something like this next season:

Brunson | Quickley | McBride
Lavine/Beal | Hart
Anunoby | MLE
Randle
Robinson | Hartenstein | Sims

and if that didn't prove to be enough for them to contend, the following summer they could offer Lavine/Beal + 25, 27, 29, 31 NYKs + all available swaps + whichever of those protected FRPs were left; for a true top 10 guy if one hit the tradeblock.

Again that's not what I'm hoping for...I'm praying for a cheaper 3&D guy like DFS, and Jaylen Brown if we do anything big...but our FO could afford an offseason like that this summer without losing their opportunity for a true title-caliber #1.

I said avoid the landmines...

A stack of picks along with youth for just turned 30 and bloated contract of Beal or injury plagued and bloated contract Lavine is exactly the thing the knicks need to avoid. Then having to trade first round picks into the next decade to fix the mistake as if there will be another team that will hand over their true number one option to take on that money without even more compensation isn't a position the Knicks want to be in.

There are a few more names I could add to that landmine list but I won't divulge them at the moment to not draw the ire of their fans on the GB.

The Knicks are in a great position right now, they'd have a better path to adding that player by continuing fiscal sensibility and allowing the $30mil+ in non-rotation salary to come off their books over the next two seasons. With the cap increase and being able to retain their own drafted players there is a chance they could sign and trade for a star FA while retaining much of their assets if they couldn't create enough space just by themselves like they did this past summer.

FOs of other teams still appear to have a Knicks tax in thinking they can just pillage them in a trade and why feed into that perception, the Knicks aren't desperate anymore and should behave accordingly.

I'm not saying that our FO should do it.

It's not what I want our FO to do.

I'm not arguing for it.

...if we do anything big I'm hoping for Jaylen Brown, but I'd be thrilled if we just swapped Obi & one of our protected FRPs for someone like DFS, DeAndre Hunter, or Pat Williams.

Hopefully that clarifies my position I'm just saying that our FO could afford to spend big on improving the team for next season, and still be in great shape for that KD/Kawhi trade that they'd (almost certainly) still need to make at some point.

Why even put it out there as an option is you don't want them to do it? It's not even 'shrug sure' options, it's 'eff no' options.

While Brown isn't a clear cut number one type option he's more in line with the type of player the Knicks should target even if it would cost them to get. He fits their team philosophy and he can fit into starting group. Right now two way big wing/forward is what they need and Brown represents one of the best potential options. He'd be a great get.

I don't see the Knicks spending big on a terrible option under the guise of possible 'improvement' then having to recover from that mistake as any way to operate. Also, adding a player at the position which blocks the two improving young players on their roster is not the way to go about it. Knicks need height and length at the 3/4, not another 2.

If they were going empty the asset bag for a 2 then Mitchell would have been the move to make even if there are concerns about defense in the back court. He's a clear number one option on offense and you figure out how to build a team defense to compensate for the weakness in the back court. The Cavs already had the pieces to do that so why it was worth the risk.

[cgf]

I said avoid the landmines...

A stack of picks along with youth for just turned 30 and bloated contract of Beal or injury plagued and bloated contract Lavine is exactly the thing the knicks need to avoid. Then having to trade first round picks into the next decade to fix the mistake as if there will be another team that will hand over their true number one option to take on that money without even more compensation isn't a position the Knicks want to be in.

There are a few more names I could add to that landmine list but I won't divulge them at the moment to not draw the ire of their fans on the GB.

The Knicks are in a great position right now, they'd have a better path to adding that player by continuing fiscal sensibility and allowing the $30mil+ in non-rotation salary to come off their books over the next two seasons. With the cap increase and being able to retain their own drafted players there is a chance they could sign and trade for a star FA while retaining much of their assets if they couldn't create enough space just by themselves like they did this past summer.

FOs of other teams still appear to have a Knicks tax in thinking they can just pillage them in a trade and why feed into that perception, the Knicks aren't desperate anymore and should behave accordingly.

I'm not saying that our FO should do it.

It's not what I want our FO to do.

I'm not arguing for it.

...if we do anything big I'm hoping for Jaylen Brown, but I'd be thrilled if we just swapped Obi & one of our protected FRPs for someone like DFS, DeAndre Hunter, or Pat Williams.

Hopefully that clarifies my position I'm just saying that our FO could afford to spend big on improving the team for next season, and still be in great shape for that KD/Kawhi trade that they'd (almost certainly) still need to make at some point.

Why even put it out there as an option is you don't want them to do it? It's not even 'shrug sure' options, it's 'eff no' options.

While Brown isn't a clear cut number one type option he's more in line with the type of player the Knicks should target even if it would cost them to get. He fits their team philosophy and he can fit into starting group. Right now two way big wing/forward is what they need and Brown represents one of the best potential options. He'd be a great get.

I don't see the Knicks spending big on a terrible option under the guise of possible 'improvement' then having to recover from that mistake as any way to operate. Also, adding a player at the position which blocks the two improving young players on their roster is not the way to go about it. Knicks need height and length at the 3/4, not another 2.

If they were going empty the asset bag for a 2 then Mitchell would have been the move to make even if there are concerns about defense in the back court. He's a clear number one option on offense and you figure out how to build a team defense to compensate for the weakness in the back court. The Cavs already had the pieces to do that so why it was worth the risk.

Because they are options that I think/worry there is a good chance that our FO will pursue if they can't land someone better instead (read: Brown). I didn't want Mitchell either, but our FO still pursued him until the price got too steep for them to add him & make that next move we would have still needed.

As long as they don't touch any unprotected FRPs past next summer it wouldn't affect our ability to make that bigger move the following summer...having a Beal or Lavine instead of Barrett to add all those unprotected picks too, could actually make it easier to make that next trade.

...and given how much we need a #1 option, adding either of them while swapping Grimes for Anunoby, would make us more likely to win a series or two next season so that we could build on the momentum of this season instead of standing pat and risking regression.

If they would have to "empty the bag" for Beal or Lavine then just like with Spida I suspect/hope they'd pull out...but our 2024 FRP + those protected FRPs isn't emptying the bag as long as those future unprotected FRPs are untouched.

[stuporman]

I'm not saying that our FO should do it.

It's not what I want our FO to do.

I'm not arguing for it.

...if we do anything big I'm hoping for Jaylen Brown, but I'd be thrilled if we just swapped Obi & one of our protected FRPs for someone like DFS, DeAndre Hunter, or Pat Williams.

Hopefully that clarifies my position I'm just saying that our FO could afford to spend big on improving the team for next season, and still be in great shape for that KD/Kawhi trade that they'd (almost certainly) still need to make at some point.

Why even put it out there as an option is you don't want them to do it? It's not even 'shrug sure' options, it's 'eff no' options.

While Brown isn't a clear cut number one type option he's more in line with the type of player the Knicks should target even if it would cost them to get. He fits their team philosophy and he can fit into starting group. Right now two way big wing/forward is what they need and Brown represents one of the best potential options. He'd be a great get.

I don't see the Knicks spending big on a terrible option under the guise of possible 'improvement' then having to recover from that mistake as any way to operate. Also, adding a player at the position which blocks the two improving young players on their roster is not the way to go about it. Knicks need height and length at the 3/4, not another 2.

If they were going empty the asset bag for a 2 then Mitchell would have been the move to make even if there are concerns about defense in the back court. He's a clear number one option on offense and you figure out how to build a team defense to compensate for the weakness in the back court. The Cavs already had the pieces to do that so why it was worth the risk.

Because they are options that I think there is a good chance that our FO will pursue if they can't land someone better instead (read: Brown). As long as they don't touch any unprotected FRPs past next summer it wouldn't affect our ability to make that bigger move the following summer...having a Beal or Lavine instead of Barrett to add all those unprotected picks too, could actually make it easier to make that next trade...and it would make us more likely to win a series or two next season so that we can build on the momentum of this season.

I hope the Knicks' FO is smarter than thinking Lavine or Beal are a player to risk opportunity cost and actual assets for.

Beal is fine, he's a great scorer but getting long in the tooth and hella expensive even with a cap increase, wrong timeline. Lavine is a dynamic scorer and looks like he's getting his athleticism back after the last injury but he's never led a team to any sustained winning...and hella expensive.

If they do anything with those two they aren't helping the Knicks much, they'd be locking them into treadmilling and costing them assets to do it. Hard pass.

[JonFromVA]

I think youre clouded on what Lauri is now. We don't know what RJ would become had he been in Utah this year. Lauri wasn't considered more than a role player at best.

Some considered him much more.

Ainge most certainly wouldn't have settled for a "role player at best" just to get Mitchell off his chest. The Cavs offered Love and Ainge refused.

What RJ would become in Utah...? Yeah, we don't know either what the rest of the league would become in Utah. Maybe better just stick to the facts we have in our disposal, ok.

From what was being reported at the time, it was the 3rd unprotected FRP that we were refusing to give up, which swung things in favor of the Cavs once they got involved...not the prospects coming along with those picks. I'm sure Ainge hoped that Lauri & Sexton would both be allstars for the Jazz, but he wasn't banking on that to justify the trade.

All depends which rumors you believe, and it was problematic that the eligibility of various players to even be included in the deal was shifting as the Knicks got tired of waiting on Ainge and extended Mitchell and Barrett.

In the end, it's the total package and however it was Ainge valued the pieces and/or thought he could get for them in a follow on trade.

For instance, maybe Ainge equated the Knicks including Grimes to be about as valuable as the Cavs including Agbaji. If the Knicks refused to include him, how do they make up the value? Certainly not by eliminating a protected pick from their offer.

Was Barrett worth more than Markkanen? Clearly some thought so, but at upwards of $30M/year there's no guarantee that Ainge thought so.

[cgf]

Why even put it out there as an option is you don't want them to do it? It's not even 'shrug sure' options, it's 'eff no' options.

While Brown isn't a clear cut number one type option he's more in line with the type of player the Knicks should target even if it would cost them to get. He fits their team philosophy and he can fit into starting group. Right now two way big wing/forward is what they need and Brown represents one of the best potential options. He'd be a great get.

I don't see the Knicks spending big on a terrible option under the guise of possible 'improvement' then having to recover from that mistake as any way to operate. Also, adding a player at the position which blocks the two improving young players on their roster is not the way to go about it. Knicks need height and length at the 3/4, not another 2.

If they were going empty the asset bag for a 2 then Mitchell would have been the move to make even if there are concerns about defense in the back court. He's a clear number one option on offense and you figure out how to build a team defense to compensate for the weakness in the back court. The Cavs already had the pieces to do that so why it was worth the risk.

Because they are options that I think there is a good chance that our FO will pursue if they can't land someone better instead (read: Brown). As long as they don't touch any unprotected FRPs past next summer it wouldn't affect our ability to make that bigger move the following summer...having a Beal or Lavine instead of Barrett to add all those unprotected picks too, could actually make it easier to make that next trade...and it would make us more likely to win a series or two next season so that we can build on the momentum of this season.

I hope the Knicks' FO is smarter than thinking Lavine or Beal are a player to risk opportunity cost and actual assets for.

Beal is fine, he's a great scorer but getting long in the tooth and hella expensive even with a cap increase, wrong timeline. Lavine is a dynamic scorer and looks like he's getting his athleticism back after the last injury but he's never led a team to any sustained winning...and hella expensive.

If they do anything with those two they aren't helping the Knicks much, they'd be locking them into treadmilling and costing them assets to do it. Hard pass.

Only thing I'd disagree with is the 'locking themselves in' part. As long as they don't touch any future unprotected FRPs past 2024, then at least they would still have the draft capital to take that final step if/when a title-caliber #1 hit the market, and break past the treadmill.

But yeah, I'm hoping that they don't let Brunson & Randle's seasons cause them to rush things this summer if the right move isn't there.

[stuporman]

Because they are options that I think there is a good chance that our FO will pursue if they can't land someone better instead (read: Brown). As long as they don't touch any unprotected FRPs past next summer it wouldn't affect our ability to make that bigger move the following summer...having a Beal or Lavine instead of Barrett to add all those unprotected picks too, could actually make it easier to make that next trade...and it would make us more likely to win a series or two next season so that we can build on the momentum of this season.

I hope the Knicks' FO is smarter than thinking Lavine or Beal are a player to risk opportunity cost and actual assets for.

Beal is fine, he's a great scorer but getting long in the tooth and hella expensive even with a cap increase, wrong timeline. Lavine is a dynamic scorer and looks like he's getting his athleticism back after the last injury but he's never led a team to any sustained winning...and hella expensive.

If they do anything with those two they aren't helping the Knicks much, they'd be locking them into treadmilling and costing them assets to do it. Hard pass.

Only thing I'd disagree with is the 'locking themselves in' part. As long as they don't touch any future unprotected FRPs past 2024, then at least they would still have the draft capital to take that final step if/when a title-caliber #1 hit the market, and break past the treadmill.

But yeah, I'm hoping that they don't let Brunson & Randle's seasons cause them to rush things this summer if the right move isn't there.

Their yearly salary is what locks a team in to them if they aren't worth the cost of it, not just the assets costing them to acquire them. At that salary it has to be the clear number one option difference maker, not just a hope it works out piece.

[Mr Loggins]

I’d still rather play with Garland

[cgf]

I hope the Knicks' FO is smarter than thinking Lavine or Beal are a player to risk opportunity cost and actual assets for.

Beal is fine, he's a great scorer but getting long in the tooth and hella expensive even with a cap increase, wrong timeline. Lavine is a dynamic scorer and looks like he's getting his athleticism back after the last injury but he's never led a team to any sustained winning...and hella expensive.

If they do anything with those two they aren't helping the Knicks much, they'd be locking them into treadmilling and costing them assets to do it. Hard pass.

Only thing I'd disagree with is the 'locking themselves in' part. As long as they don't touch any future unprotected FRPs past 2024, then at least they would still have the draft capital to take that final step if/when a title-caliber #1 hit the market, and break past the treadmill.

But yeah, I'm hoping that they don't let Brunson & Randle's seasons cause them to rush things this summer if the right move isn't there.

Their yearly salary is what locks a team in to them if they aren't worth the cost of it, not just the assets costing them to acquire them. At that salary it has to be the clear number one option difference maker, not just a hope it works out piece.

I think we make a much bigger deal out of what good players are paid than do NBA teams. Thus all of the "overpays" we see every year and the rumors we hear about teams being interested in guys that we fans think are "untradeable" or "negative values". So as long as Beal/Lavine wouldn't fall apart completely for us, I don't think their trade values would be hurt by their salaries.

[cgf]

Some considered him much more.

Ainge most certainly wouldn't have settled for a "role player at best" just to get Mitchell off his chest. The Cavs offered Love and Ainge refused.

What RJ would become in Utah...? Yeah, we don't know either what the rest of the league would become in Utah. Maybe better just stick to the facts we have in our disposal, ok.

From what was being reported at the time, it was the 3rd unprotected FRP that we were refusing to give up, which swung things in favor of the Cavs once they got involved...not the prospects coming along with those picks. I'm sure Ainge hoped that Lauri & Sexton would both be allstars for the Jazz, but he wasn't banking on that to justify the trade.

All depends which rumors you believe, and it was problematic that the eligibility of various players to even be included in the deal was shifting as the Knicks got tired of waiting on Ainge and extended Mitchell and Barrett.

In the end, it's the total package and however it was Ainge valued the pieces and/or thought he could get for them in a follow on trade.

For instance, maybe Ainge equated the Knicks including Grimes to be about as valuable as the Cavs including Agbaji. If the Knicks refused to include him, how do they make up the value? Certainly not by eliminating a protected pick from their offer.

Was Barrett worth more than Markkanen? Clearly some thought so, but at upwards of $30M/year there's no guarantee that Ainge thought so.

That's certainly true and we can't know for sure, but our FO's resistance to include a 3rd unprotected pick was a pretty consistently reported detail by most sources, as was Utah's insistence on receiving a 3rd unprotected pick. And the final package did include three unprotected FRPs, so I do tend to buy that part of the reporting.

But you're right, we don't know that for sure and likely never will.

[Michael Jackson]

Jalen "Damn" Son just dropped 48 Points on the Cavs!

Why didn't Donovan Mitchell work the back channels and let Danny Ainge know that if he got traded that he only wanted to play for the New York Knicks?

He really dropped the ball here. He played Mr. Nice guy and let Trader Danny know it didn't matter where he got traded. His Agent and Advisors really selfishly hurt his Career!

And Think about all the Extra Money Donovan would have made in Endorsements because he's in the World's Biggest Market

Imagine a Jalen "Damn" Son & Donovan Mitchell backcourt?!?!

Only an idiot of the highest order would trade for RJ Barrett instead of Lauri. Ainge isn't that.

RJ had more value than Lauri at the time of the trade. There isn't much debating that.

Maybe. I think there is some debate as Lauri even with the Bulls had good numbers and was rounding a corner with the Cavs because he was hurt and the Bulls mismanaged him. Lauri has been fairly consistent though through his career, someone has the numbers but I think Him and RJ (and I am not an RJ hater) have been on par for most of their careers up until this year. Lauri breakout year but next year might be RJ's? My point though is at the time I guess on name only RJ might have seemed more valuable but Lauri never had bad stats. He found a perfect solution in Utah this year to become more noticed FWIW but not like he was ever trash. Interesting strange skillset.

[Michael Jackson]

I will say there is a 'similarity' perception of this Knicks team to the team two years ago.

Both exceeded the expectations many had for them so how it ended crashing last time may subconsciously rub off on this season's team. Even though it's clearly apparent it's a much improved team there's this haunting doub about it echoing from the reminder of the past also including the past 20 years not just two years ago.

This isn't lost on Knicks fans, they live with the effects of battered fan syndrome every day.

The Cavs were in a batter position as a franchise to take the risk in giving up so much in draft capital for Mitchell and they also didn't have to give up any of their 3 top core players. All they need to do now is fill in the blanks with a couple of superglue role players as well as let some player development takes place to become contenders.

The Knicks couldn't take that risk going all in with where the franchise was at last summer, they had too many unanswered questions. Yet now they are further along than anticipated because of the rise to stardom by Brunson, some solid youth development and adding a couple of those superglue role players.

Even though the Knicks are just below the level of contender status since they are missing that one top dog player and well positioned to add that piece, they have to be careful. Pick the wrong player to add and it can wipe away this opportunity, there are some landmines out there they have to avoid. Don't blow it.

Luckily with all of their spare picks and our FO's tendency to trade back on draft night, the FO has the wiggle room to make some big moves and still maintain the flexibility to offer a KD-like package if those moves don't work.

Not arguing our FO should do this...but if they wanted to accelerate things next season they could conceivably trade Barrett + Grimes + Toppin + 3-5 of DAL / DET / MIL / 24 NYK / WSH FRPs for Lavine/Beal + Anunoby this summer, leaving them with something like this next season:

Brunson | Quickley | McBride
Lavine/Beal
Anunoby | Hart
Randle | MLE
Robinson | Hartenstein | Sims

and if that didn't prove to be enough for them to contend, the following summer they could offer Lavine/Beal + 25, 27, 29, 31 NYKs + all available swaps + whichever of those protected FRPs were left; for a true top 10 guy if one hit the tradeblock.

Again that's not what I'm hoping for...I'm praying for a cheaper 3&D guy like DFS, and Jaylen Brown if we do anything big...but our FO could afford an offseason like that this summer without losing their opportunity for a true title-caliber #1.

Stacked team but is having Beal and Levine on the same team logical? Fairly similar skillset, I think I take Lavine at this point but man a lot of salary. Seems kinda an unrealistic scenario too and Beal is not going to be happy coming off the bench nor would Lavine. Both are still prime.

[cgf]

I will say there is a 'similarity' perception of this Knicks team to the team two years ago.

Both exceeded the expectations many had for them so how it ended crashing last time may subconsciously rub off on this season's team. Even though it's clearly apparent it's a much improved team there's this haunting doub about it echoing from the reminder of the past also including the past 20 years not just two years ago.

This isn't lost on Knicks fans, they live with the effects of battered fan syndrome every day.

The Cavs were in a batter position as a franchise to take the risk in giving up so much in draft capital for Mitchell and they also didn't have to give up any of their 3 top core players. All they need to do now is fill in the blanks with a couple of superglue role players as well as let some player development takes place to become contenders.

The Knicks couldn't take that risk going all in with where the franchise was at last summer, they had too many unanswered questions. Yet now they are further along than anticipated because of the rise to stardom by Brunson, some solid youth development and adding a couple of those superglue role players.

Even though the Knicks are just below the level of contender status since they are missing that one top dog player and well positioned to add that piece, they have to be careful. Pick the wrong player to add and it can wipe away this opportunity, there are some landmines out there they have to avoid. Don't blow it.

Luckily with all of their spare picks and our FO's tendency to trade back on draft night, the FO has the wiggle room to make some big moves and still maintain the flexibility to offer a KD-like package if those moves don't work.

Not arguing our FO should do this...but if they wanted to accelerate things next season they could conceivably trade Barrett + Grimes + Toppin + 3-5 of DAL / DET / MIL / 24 NYK / WSH FRPs for Lavine/Beal + Anunoby this summer, leaving them with something like this next season:

Brunson | Quickley | McBride
Lavine/Beal
Anunoby | Hart
Randle | MLE
Robinson | Hartenstein | Sims

and if that didn't prove to be enough for them to contend, the following summer they could offer Lavine/Beal + 25, 27, 29, 31 NYKs + all available swaps + whichever of those protected FRPs were left; for a true top 10 guy if one hit the tradeblock.

Again that's not what I'm hoping for...I'm praying for a cheaper 3&D guy like DFS, and Jaylen Brown if we do anything big...but our FO could afford an offseason like that this summer without losing their opportunity for a true title-caliber #1.

Stacked team but is having Beal and Levine on the same team logical? Fairly similar skillset, I think I take Lavine at this point but man a lot of salary. Seems kinda an unrealistic scenario too and Beal is not going to be happy coming off the bench nor would Lavine. Both are still prime.

My bad for not being clearer. That's supposed to be Beal or Lavine, not both. We have a significant warchest, but not that significant

[stuporman]

Only thing I'd disagree with is the 'locking themselves in' part. As long as they don't touch any future unprotected FRPs past 2024, then at least they would still have the draft capital to take that final step if/when a title-caliber #1 hit the market, and break past the treadmill.

But yeah, I'm hoping that they don't let Brunson & Randle's seasons cause them to rush things this summer if the right move isn't there.

Their yearly salary is what locks a team in to them if they aren't worth the cost of it, not just the assets costing them to acquire them. At that salary it has to be the clear number one option difference maker, not just a hope it works out piece.

I think we make a much bigger deal out of what good players are paid than do NBA teams. Thus all of the "overpays" we see every year and the rumors we hear about teams being interested in guys that we fans think are "untradeable" or "negative values". So as long as Beal/Lavine wouldn't fall apart completely for us, I don't think their trade values would be hurt by their salaries.

You're missing the point. Lavine is going to make $40-49mil each year over the next 4, Beal $46-57milper over the next 4 years. That kind of money will strangle a team's ability to build out the team and if it's for a guy who isn't leading the team anywhere, like Lavine and Beal haven't proven they can, it's not what you want to do. Stop with the explanations, any way you cut it that's not the smart move, money wise or basketball wise. It's ova.

[Michael Jackson]

Luckily with all of their spare picks and our FO's tendency to trade back on draft night, the FO has the wiggle room to make some big moves and still maintain the flexibility to offer a KD-like package if those moves don't work.

Not arguing our FO should do this...but if they wanted to accelerate things next season they could conceivably trade Barrett + Grimes + Toppin + 3-5 of DAL / DET / MIL / 24 NYK / WSH FRPs for Lavine/Beal + Anunoby this summer, leaving them with something like this next season:

Brunson | Quickley | McBride
Lavine/Beal
Anunoby | Hart
Randle | MLE
Robinson | Hartenstein | Sims

and if that didn't prove to be enough for them to contend, the following summer they could offer Lavine/Beal + 25, 27, 29, 31 NYKs + all available swaps + whichever of those protected FRPs were left; for a true top 10 guy if one hit the tradeblock.

Again that's not what I'm hoping for...I'm praying for a cheaper 3&D guy like DFS, and Jaylen Brown if we do anything big...but our FO could afford an offseason like that this summer without losing their opportunity for a true title-caliber #1.

Stacked team but is having Beal and Levine on the same team logical? Fairly similar skillset, I think I take Lavine at this point but man a lot of salary. Seems kinda an unrealistic scenario too and Beal is not going to be happy coming off the bench nor would Lavine. Both are still prime.

Gotcha!!! That makes more sense. I should have figured that out but then again it is the general board.

My bad for not being clearer. That's supposed to be Beal or Lavine, not both. We have a significant warchest, but not that significant

[cgf]

Their yearly salary is what locks a team in to them if they aren't worth the cost of it, not just the assets costing them to acquire them. At that salary it has to be the clear number one option difference maker, not just a hope it works out piece.

I think we make a much bigger deal out of what good players are paid than do NBA teams. Thus all of the "overpays" we see every year and the rumors we hear about teams being interested in guys that we fans think are "untradeable" or "negative values". So as long as Beal/Lavine wouldn't fall apart completely for us, I don't think their trade values would be hurt by their salaries.

You're missing the point. Lavine is going to make $40-49mil each year over the next 4, Beal $46-57milper over the next 4 years. That kind of money will strangle a team's ability to build out the team and if it's for a guy who isn't leading the team anywhere, like Lavine and Beal haven't proven they can, it's not what you want to do. Stop with the explanations, any way you cut it that's not the smart move, money wise or basketball wise. It's ova.

Not disagreeing with any of this really...but I don't think those salaries make Beal or Lavine unattractive to other teams around the league as long as they maintain their level of play. That was my only quibble, as long as we kept our future unprotected FRPs we could still trade our way to contending.

I still don't think it would make enough of a difference to be worth spending the assets to make happen, but we wouldn't be locked in if it did. Which is why I can see our FO exploring those options unless they can land a better fit like Brown or RJ just goes super Saiyan this postseason.

[cgf]

Stacked team but is having Beal and Levine on the same team logical? Fairly similar skillset, I think I take Lavine at this point but man a lot of salary. Seems kinda an unrealistic scenario too and Beal is not going to be happy coming off the bench nor would Lavine. Both are still prime.

My bad for not being clearer. That's supposed to be Beal or Lavine, not both. We have a significant warchest, but not that significant

Gotcha!!! That makes more sense. I should have figured that out but then again it is the general board.

lol nah, it's totally fair on the GB. It's not exactly a dream scenario for any of us knicks fans, but I was just trying to show that our FO's pick surplus means they could afford to spend that much this summer and still be able to offer Lavine or Beal + 4 unprotected FRPs + swaps + sweetener(s) for a top 10 guy the following summer.

Assuming we can't land Brown, I'd rather sit tight and aim for a bigger 3&D guy who would be cheaper to acquire...guys like DFS, Hunter, P.Williams, etc. who would only cost Toppin and 1 or 2 of those 5 picks...but our FO could spend all 4 of their protected FRPs, their 2024 FRP, and Toppin to on upgrades to the rotation without locking themselves in if it's not enough.