Moderators: HiJiNX, 7 Footer, DG88, niQ, Duffman100, tsherkin, Reeko, Morris_Shatford, lebron stopper
Pointgod wrote:Thank you. You are coming up clutch for me today!
ciueli wrote:tsherkin wrote:
All that to say, if we're going to rip on our defensive success due to weak schedule, we should take the results in the first half of the season with a similar grain of salt due to difficulty thereof. The results, as ever, tend to point more towards the middle.
As I've said before, I just don't know where this optimism about the defence comes from, if anything the defence could be worse than last year for a number of reasons. Ingram is not a great defender and minutes for good defenders like Ochai, Shead, and Mogbo will likely be cut as the rotation tightens. Davion Mitchell is gone, and IQ will be playing more of the minutes at PG with Shead also likely playing a reduced backup role. Sandro is almost certainly in the rotation out of necessity and he hasn't shown he can defend the way he needs to to avoid being a liability on that end. Gradey Dick will still get minutes in the event any of the rotation wings miss games.
Maybe I'm wrong and the defence will be better than I think with an RJ trade mid-season resulting in more minutes for Ochai, maybe CMB is really that good on defence and will be great right away. Maybe Sandro doesn't make the rotation like I think he will. Those are things that can happen that could change things but right now I'm just looking at what seems most likely and what I see is only half the top 8 rotation being dependable defenders (Scottie, Jak, Ochai, Shead).
ConSarnit wrote:The only overly optimistic posters I see are the ones quoting the last 2 months as a sign we are some great defense.
Most realize we’ll probably be mid pack.
tsherkin wrote:ConSarnit wrote:The only overly optimistic posters I see are the ones quoting the last 2 months as a sign we are some great defense.
And me, because I very explicitly stated on multiple occasions that I wasn't just looking at the last two monthsMost realize we’ll probably be mid pack.
Which is also what I was on about earlier. My optimism is about us being a little better than average, as opposed to an absolute trainwreck. Ideally, I would love to see us in that 12-14 range as a nice step forward.
ConSarnit wrote:I didn’t mean to direct that comment at you. I know you’re pretty level headed when it comes to assessing this team.
ciueli wrote:tsherkin wrote:
All that to say, if we're going to rip on our defensive success due to weak schedule, we should take the results in the first half of the season with a similar grain of salt due to difficulty thereof. The results, as ever, tend to point more towards the middle.
As I've said before, I just don't know where this optimism about the defence comes from, if anything the defence could be worse than last year for a number of reasons. Ingram is not a great defender and minutes for good defenders like Ochai, Shead, and Mogbo will likely be cut as the rotation tightens. Davion Mitchell is gone, and IQ will be playing more of the minutes at PG with Shead also likely playing a reduced backup role. Sandro is almost certainly in the rotation out of necessity and he hasn't shown he can defend the way he needs to to avoid being a liability on that end. Gradey Dick will still get minutes in the event any of the rotation wings miss games.
Maybe I'm wrong and the defence will be better than I think with an RJ trade mid-season resulting in more minutes for Ochai, maybe CMB is really that good on defence and will be great right away. Maybe Sandro doesn't make the rotation like I think he will. Those are things that can happen that could change things but right now I'm just looking at what seems most likely and what I see is only half the top 8 rotation being dependable defenders (Scottie, Jak, Ochai, Shead).
ConSarnit wrote:ciueli wrote:tsherkin wrote:
All that to say, if we're going to rip on our defensive success due to weak schedule, we should take the results in the first half of the season with a similar grain of salt due to difficulty thereof. The results, as ever, tend to point more towards the middle.
As I've said before, I just don't know where this optimism about the defence comes from, if anything the defence could be worse than last year for a number of reasons. Ingram is not a great defender and minutes for good defenders like Ochai, Shead, and Mogbo will likely be cut as the rotation tightens. Davion Mitchell is gone, and IQ will be playing more of the minutes at PG with Shead also likely playing a reduced backup role. Sandro is almost certainly in the rotation out of necessity and he hasn't shown he can defend the way he needs to to avoid being a liability on that end. Gradey Dick will still get minutes in the event any of the rotation wings miss games.
Maybe I'm wrong and the defence will be better than I think with an RJ trade mid-season resulting in more minutes for Ochai, maybe CMB is really that good on defence and will be great right away. Maybe Sandro doesn't make the rotation like I think he will. Those are things that can happen that could change things but right now I'm just looking at what seems most likely and what I see is only half the top 8 rotation being dependable defenders (Scottie, Jak, Ochai, Shead).
I think there are only a few posters who are “optimistic”. The only overly optimistic posters I see are the ones quoting the last 2 months as a sign we are some great defense. Most realize we’ll probably be mid pack. When we were healthy last year (jan-feb) and we had cleaned up our turnover issues we were an average defensive team. I don’t see any reason why we can’t replicate that again.
ciueli wrote:They didn't really clean up the turnover issue, they finished 24th in the NBA in turnovers per game, they weren't bottom 3 like they were at points during the season but it was still pretty bad.
that's the price that is paid for passing the ball a lot.
ConSarnit wrote:tsherkin wrote:ciueli wrote:No, every other team in the league isn't a tax team with no perennial All-Star level players on their roster and glaring holes in their bench.
I think at some point, we just need to accept that this is what we've got, and see where we go from here. We've been dog-ass for a while now, so we have to hope we'll be healthy for a bit. Enjoy some > .500 seasons and some playoff games. Then see what management can do to extend that run and better the team.
We can't just always be less than thrilled with everything, because we already know from years and decades of the sport that there are ebbs and flows, and that rebuilding is a process which relies heavily upon luck. And yes, sometimes you pull the trigger too quickly, but ultimately, you can't expect a fan base to back you if you just suck ass forever and pray for picks to turn out.
The issue is that we’ve constructed a team where there is no guarantee we make the playoffs. The play-in, sure. If Ingrams health doesn’t hold up (not a great bet) we’re a low 40’s win team fighting for the 8th seed. We’ve seemingly built a team with limited upside that feels like a team that will have to be rebuilt in 2-3 years after we’ve accomplished very little. The idea that we can be the “6th seed” is great but it’s coming at a time when the East is extremely down. Earning the 6th seed this season should not really be a feather in anyone’s cap given how the East’s upper echelon has been destroyed by injury. The core of this team feels like one of a team that will easily get supplanted in the standings once the likes of IND, BOS and PHI (a big maybe) return to health.
Now, I say this as someone who doesn’t really care about the fanbase. I want to compete for titles. I get that the organization/ownership might have other goals. If those goals are building a 1st round and out team for the sake of maintaining fan interest then I am not going to be very supportive of that model.
OakleyDokely wrote:Catch and shoot 3pt%:
22/23: 41.7%
23/24: 36.9%
24/25: 40.8%
Pullup 3pt%:
22/23: 32.6%
23/24: 33.8%
24/25: 31.0%
GLF wrote:OakleyDokely wrote:Catch and shoot 3pt%:
22/23: 41.7%
23/24: 36.9%
24/25: 40.8%
Pullup 3pt%:
22/23: 32.6%
23/24: 33.8%
24/25: 31.0%
Is this BI or RJ? Bc this thread has gone in many directions now, I can’t keep up. Also what’s league average for pull up 3s and for catch and shoot 3s? I’ve always been meaning to find that out
JB7 wrote:
What is never mentioned in these conversations, and is critical because they are comparing last year's results to what will occur this year, is that the Raps were tanking from Game 1 last season. And they still managed 30 wins.
They literally quote the number of games IQ missed, and how many were due to rest, which they say was league leading last season.
I found it funny, that Zach compared the performance of the Yak, Barnes, RJ and IQ, mins played together 2 seasons ago, to last season, and his analysis that the reason they were +65 in like 234mins in 2023-24, vs -29 in 140mins last season, was they had a 'legit' 2 guard in GTJ
Yes, all that unit is missing is GTJ
Not, that they actually tried to perform in a short number of games together in 2023-24, vs, the team was just outright tanking in 2024-25. They only played 140mins together over the course of a full season, which was strategic, because they were not trying to win! If you're trying to lose games, the last thing a team want is their best players on the floor, especially all together.
ciueli wrote:JB7 wrote:
What is never mentioned in these conversations, and is critical because they are comparing last year's results to what will occur this year, is that the Raps were tanking from Game 1 last season. And they still managed 30 wins.
They literally quote the number of games IQ missed, and how many were due to rest, which they say was league leading last season.
I found it funny, that Zach compared the performance of the Yak, Barnes, RJ and IQ, mins played together 2 seasons ago, to last season, and his analysis that the reason they were +65 in like 234mins in 2023-24, vs -29 in 140mins last season, was they had a 'legit' 2 guard in GTJ
Yes, all that unit is missing is GTJ
Not, that they actually tried to perform in a short number of games together in 2023-24, vs, the team was just outright tanking in 2024-25. They only played 140mins together over the course of a full season, which was strategic, because they were not trying to win! If you're trying to lose games, the last thing a team want is their best players on the floor, especially all together.
They weren't tanking from game 1 of the season, they just had injuries to important players, the early schedule was completely brutal, and the team was bad. You don't play Scottie 37 minutes in a loss to Minnesota or 38 minutes in a loss to Miami. Or RJ Barrett 42.5 Minutes in an overtime loss to the Celtics. Or Jak 37.5 minutes in the next game against Indiana (a win). All of these games were early in the season when, yes, Darko was trying to win games, yes, the team was trying to win games, they just weren't very good at it.
ciueli wrote:JB7 wrote:
What is never mentioned in these conversations, and is critical because they are comparing last year's results to what will occur this year, is that the Raps were tanking from Game 1 last season. And they still managed 30 wins.
They literally quote the number of games IQ missed, and how many were due to rest, which they say was league leading last season.
I found it funny, that Zach compared the performance of the Yak, Barnes, RJ and IQ, mins played together 2 seasons ago, to last season, and his analysis that the reason they were +65 in like 234mins in 2023-24, vs -29 in 140mins last season, was they had a 'legit' 2 guard in GTJ
Yes, all that unit is missing is GTJ
Not, that they actually tried to perform in a short number of games together in 2023-24, vs, the team was just outright tanking in 2024-25. They only played 140mins together over the course of a full season, which was strategic, because they were not trying to win! If you're trying to lose games, the last thing a team want is their best players on the floor, especially all together.
They weren't tanking from game 1 of the season, they just had injuries to important players, the early schedule was completely brutal, and the team was bad. You don't play Scottie 37 minutes in a loss to Minnesota or 38 minutes in a loss to Miami. Or RJ Barrett 42.5 Minutes in an overtime loss to the Celtics. Or Jak 37.5 minutes in the next game against Indiana (a win). All of these games were early in the season when, yes, Darko was trying to win games, yes, the team was trying to win games, they just weren't very good at it.
Harcore Fenton Mun wrote:ciueli wrote:JB7 wrote:
What is never mentioned in these conversations, and is critical because they are comparing last year's results to what will occur this year, is that the Raps were tanking from Game 1 last season. And they still managed 30 wins.
They literally quote the number of games IQ missed, and how many were due to rest, which they say was league leading last season.
I found it funny, that Zach compared the performance of the Yak, Barnes, RJ and IQ, mins played together 2 seasons ago, to last season, and his analysis that the reason they were +65 in like 234mins in 2023-24, vs -29 in 140mins last season, was they had a 'legit' 2 guard in GTJ
Yes, all that unit is missing is GTJ
Not, that they actually tried to perform in a short number of games together in 2023-24, vs, the team was just outright tanking in 2024-25. They only played 140mins together over the course of a full season, which was strategic, because they were not trying to win! If you're trying to lose games, the last thing a team want is their best players on the floor, especially all together.
They weren't tanking from game 1 of the season, they just had injuries to important players, the early schedule was completely brutal, and the team was bad. You don't play Scottie 37 minutes in a loss to Minnesota or 38 minutes in a loss to Miami. Or RJ Barrett 42.5 Minutes in an overtime loss to the Celtics. Or Jak 37.5 minutes in the next game against Indiana (a win). All of these games were early in the season when, yes, Darko was trying to win games, yes, the team was trying to win games, they just weren't very good at it.
If they were tanking on purpose...it makes it worse. That means they're bad at their job. They couldn't even do that right.
