Can we have real talk about LaMelo Ball

[kcktiny]

i watched him in person last night put a 38 point triple double, dude made it looks effortless

You watch him last season? Here are a few examples:

11/27/2024 - 11/35, 7 to
12/19/2024 - 11/32, 1 to
11/10/2024 - 13/30, 6 to
11/8/2024 - 10/20, 1 to
11/17/2024 - 11/29, 5 to
3/5/2025 - 11/28, 4 to
2/7/2025 - 9/26, 3 to
10/25/2024 - 10/20, 10 to
10/30/2024 - 7/20, 6 to
3/3/2025 - 6/19, 5 to

That's ten games right there 38% FG% and 4.8 to/g.

Did you watch the team last year?

Perhaps 15-20 games.

Are you familiar with the roster?

Yep.

Sounds like you don’t get how much creation he had to do last year and how poor that team was.

The past 3 seasons Ball played the 3rd most minutes on Charlotte (3484). Only Miles Bridges and P.J. Washington played more.

These 3 years Charlotte was the worst team in the league, averaged a W-L record of only 22-60. Ball lead the team with 826 assists, 300+ more than any other Hornets player. His per minute assist rate of 9.5 ast/40min was 11th best in the league (for players having played 1000+ minutes).

Yet they were dead last/worst in the league in 2pt FG% at just 51.9%. They ranked dead last/worst as a team in offensive efficiency (108.0 pts/100poss scored) - with Ball far and away the team leader in missed FGA per game (12.0) and turnovers per game (3.6) - and 4th worst in defensive efficiency (116.3 pts/100poss allowed).

LaMelo being good at basketball breaks their entire view of basketball, teambuilding, player evaluation, statistical analysis, and their overall worldview as human beings entirely.

A tad strong response for simply posting what are factual statistics.

They do not want to believe he can be good.

Where has anybody said this? Of course he - as well as any other player - can be good.

But the fact is we are talking about a player who is not a rookie or 2nd year player but is in fact starting his 6th season in the league and:

- is a poor defender overall, who
- is not even an average shooter from the floor for a PG, who
- commits a lot of turnovers

Whether you choose to believe these or not they are indeed factual.

[tsherkin]

Put him on a solid defensive team, he's the same as Cade Cunningham.

We struggle evaluating players on awful teams.

This is what I was getting after earlier.

He'd look different on a team which could defend and hit shots when he was passing out, for sure.

Maybe he should concentrate on being a low turnover pass first PG and not a chucker.

That wouldn't be an intelligent approach at all, particularly on a team with no scoring. His biggest issues are health and lack of help more than the fact that he shoots a lot. The Hornets suck; that's the biggest reason he shoots as much as he does, and him shooting LESS would be of literally no positive value to them.

None of you have watched enough Charlotte basketball to have even close to a valid opinion on him or the team’s struggles. And no amount of statistical analysis will help you.

So this is obviously inaccurate.

It's very clear that health is a big issue, and it's similarly clear that the roster around him is a major impediment. It's also very clear that he's not a tier-1 player, but that he's got loads of talent and would look a lot better if he had a real team around him. You don't need special knowledge to sort through that.

[amcoolio]

i watched him in person last night put a 38 point triple double, dude made it looks effortless

You watch him last season? Here are a few examples:

11/27/2024 - 11/35, 7 to
12/19/2024 - 11/32, 1 to
11/10/2024 - 13/30, 6 to
11/8/2024 - 10/20, 1 to
11/17/2024 - 11/29, 5 to
3/5/2025 - 11/28, 4 to
2/7/2025 - 9/26, 3 to
10/25/2024 - 10/20, 10 to
10/30/2024 - 7/20, 6 to
3/3/2025 - 6/19, 5 to

That's ten games right there 38% FG% and 4.8 to/g.

Did you watch the team last year?

Perhaps 15-20 games.

Are you familiar with the roster?

Yep.

Sounds like you don’t get how much creation he had to do last year and how poor that team was.

The past 3 seasons Ball played the 3rd most minutes on Charlotte (3484). Only Miles Bridges and P.J. Washington played more.

These 3 years Charlotte was the worst team in the league, averaged a W-L record of only 22-60. Ball lead the team with 826 assists, 300+ more than any other Hornets player. His per minute assist rate of 9.5 ast/40min was 11th best in the league (for players having played 1000+ minutes).

Yet they were dead last/worst in the league in 2pt FG% at just 51.9%. They ranked dead last/worst as a team in offensive efficiency (108.0 pts/100poss scored) - with Ball far and away the team leader in missed FGA per game (12.0) and turnovers per game (3.6) - and 4th worst in defensive efficiency (116.3 pts/100poss allowed).

LaMelo being good at basketball breaks their entire view of basketball, teambuilding, player evaluation, statistical analysis, and their overall worldview as human beings entirely.

A tad strong response for simply posting what are factual statistics.

They do not want to believe he can be good.

Where has anybody said this? Of course he - as well as any other player - can be good.

But the fact is we are talking about a player who is not a rookie or 2nd year player but is in fact starting his 6th season in the league and:

- is a poor defender overall, who
- is not even an average shooter from the floor for a PG, who
- commits a lot of turnovers

Whether you choose to believe these or not they are indeed factual.

Charlotte also hasn't attempted to win the last 3 seasons, and one of RealGM's biggest flaws is understanding a player's stats on a a clearly tanking team vs. a team trying to win

[tsherkin]

Charlotte also hasn't attempted to win the last 3 seasons, and one of RealGM's biggest flaws is understanding a player's stats on a a clearly tanking team vs. a team trying to win

The roster around him is clearly impacting him. He's got issues and skill deficiencies compared to the top tier in the league, but the tier below that is certainly attainable with his talent and any sort of health coupled to a moderately quality roster. Dude can do a lot of different things, and he isn't 6'0, either. It should be abundantly clear that he hasn't performed at the level of the first tier even under adverse conditions, because we've seen that movie many times before, but he's pretty talented regardless.

Cade was just All-NBA 3rd Team on a 44-win team that was 11th on D and 16th on O. If Ball was on that sort of team, I'm sure he'd be receiving similar recognition (providing he was any kind of healthy).

[kcktiny]

That wouldn't be an intelligent approach at all, particularly on a team with no scoring. His biggest issues are... lack of help

Ball had 11 teammates last season that each played 400+ minutes that all shot better on 2s than he did, 6 teammates that shot better on 3s (50+ 3pt FGAs).

The Hornets suck; that's the biggest reason he shoots as much as he does, and him shooting LESS would be of literally no positive value to them.

So you would rather have Ball chucking up shots at the highest per minute rate among all PGs in the league (26.6 FGA/40min) like he did last season? In 2024-25 among PGs that scored 15+ pts/g Steph Curry was the best shooter (57.5% eFG%) from the floor and even he attempted just 21.9 FGA/40min.

Coach a lot of basketball, do ya'?

Last year among the 24 PGs that started 40+ games Ball shot the 6th lowest/worst eFG% (Trae Young had the 4th lowest). Yep - that's the guy you want taking the most shots among all PGs in the league. Makes total sense.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/shots-shotclock?PerMode=PerGame&Season=2024-25&ShotClockRange=18-15%20Early&dir=D&sort=FGA

These are the players who took the most shots in a game early in the shot clock last season (18-15 sec on the clock). Notice who 2 of the top 4 players are? Trae Young and Lamelo Ball - 4-5 shots per game early in the shot clock.

Why would you want your PG, who is not a good shooter, and who you want getting his teammates involved on offense, taking so many shots early on the shot clock?

Charlotte also hasn't attempted to win the last 3 seasons

Well, they sure proved that point.

and one of RealGM's biggest flaws is understanding a player's stats on a a clearly tanking team vs. a team trying to win

Are you seriously trying to suggest that Ball was told to shoot often and early because the team wanted to lose games?

[amcoolio]

That wouldn't be an intelligent approach at all, particularly on a team with no scoring. His biggest issues are... lack of help

Ball had 11 teammates last season that each played 400+ minutes that all shot better on 2s than he did, 6 teammates that shot better on 3s (50+ 3pt FGAs).

The Hornets suck; that's the biggest reason he shoots as much as he does, and him shooting LESS would be of literally no positive value to them.

So you would rather have Ball chucking up shots at the highest per minute rate among all PGs in the league (26.6 FGA/40min) like he did last season? In 2024-25 among PGs that scored 15+ pts/g Steph Curry was the best shooter (57.5% eFG%) from the floor and even he attempted just 21.9 FGA/40min.

Coach a lot of basketball, do ya'?

Last year among the 24 PGs that started 40+ games Ball shot the 6th lowest/worst eFG% (Trae Young had the 4th lowest). Yep - that's the guy you want taking the most shots among all PGs in the league. Makes total sense.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/shots-shotclock?PerMode=PerGame&Season=2024-25&ShotClockRange=18-15%20Early&dir=D&sort=FGA

These are the players who took the most shots in a game early in the shot clock last season (18-15 sec on the clock). Notice who 2 of the top 4 players are? Trae Young and Lamelo Ball.

Why would you want your PG, who is not a good shooter, and who you want getting his teammates involved on offense, taking so many shots early on the shot clock?

Charlotte also hasn't attempted to win the last 3 seasons

Well, they sure proved that point.

and one of RealGM's biggest flaws is understanding a player's stats on a a clearly tanking team vs. a team trying to win

Are you seriously trying to suggest that Ball was told to shoot often and early because the team wanted to lose games?

I think the team told him to do whatever and try new things and work on things, and then shut him down in March, yes. This is pretty common among tanking teams. I'm not sure why you are surprised. OKC literally did it with SGA

You also seem to be of the opinion that a player can't improve from season to season... and Ball is still well before his prime

[kcktiny]

I think the team told him to do whatever and try new things and work on things, and then shut him down in March, yes. This is pretty common among tanking teams. I'm not sure why you are surprised.

What does being surprised have to do with it? I've simply pointed out the statistics showing he is nowhere near as good as some in this thread believe.

You have individuals in this thread saying things like:

he's super talented and if his team was better, he'd get better pub. Kind of like Trae.

Who refuses to understand that a 20+ pts/g and 8-10 ast/g player - like Ball or Young- can actually not be good, that doesn't understand how a player's poor defense, and poor shooting, and high turnovers really hurts his team when it comes to winning games.

You also seem to be of the opinion that a player can't improve from season to season

Where have I said this? Why do you feel the need to put words into the mouths of others?

But since you brought this up - 2024-25 was Ball's 5th in the league. He shot a career low eFG%, a career low 3pt FG%, had a career low per minute rebounding rate, a career low per minute steal rate. He came in to last season averaging 308 TO/3000min, and in 2024-25 averaged 333 TO/3000min.

Can he improve next season? I sure hope so, because he has set the bar quite low.