Dragan Bender News, Discussion and Highlights

[Revived]

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Even Kokoskov is seeing the benefit if he had played in the G league earlier in his career instead of being thrown to the wolves right away.

[bwgood77]

Definitely. Rather have Ayton and what he will become over Bender/Chriss becoming possible role players.

I think the question more is, was it worth it to make such bad picks that it allowed us to be soooo bad that we were able to get Ayton?

Which leads to the question will Ayton and Booker lead the team to a championship or at least good times ? I believe in the later, nobody can really predict the former right now.

All this tanking is really worthy only if you end with franchise players and not role players, obtainable via free agency or trades.

Only if they become good defenders. If they become average defenders we may be a first round playoff team. If Ayton becomes a great defender and Booker an average defender, we could probably be a 2nd round team at some point.

Will depend on Bridges a lot too and whatever PG we end up with.

[TheLogician]

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Even Kokoskov is seeing the benefit if he had played in the G league earlier in his career instead of being thrown to the wolves right away.

The fact that he is still a G League guy in year 3 is reason enough to decline the option. It was a bad pick. I hope he figures it out but he's not worth a roster spot at this point in time.

[Fo-Real]

Cant give him 6 mil next year for what he brings, its a slap in the face to real players.

[bwgood77]

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Even Kokoskov is seeing the benefit if he had played in the G league earlier in his career instead of being thrown to the wolves right away.

Yes, it would have been smart, because in the article that links to Igor says "He missed some steps in his journey to the NBA" like college because he went to the pros where they like to play vets, and played for a team in danger of relegation so they played the experienced guys.

So instead of college or playing for a year, he sat, and then as a rookie, he mostly sat and then got injured. That's two years of not much development. That's why I thought this year was important. I thought the shooting was encouraging last year and with Igor he could really expand things.

I wish he would have played in the G league as a rookie, but moreso, I which we would have had Igor as a coach instead of Watson.

[bwgood77]

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Even Kokoskov is seeing the benefit if he had played in the G league earlier in his career instead of being thrown to the wolves right away.

The fact that he is still a G League guy in year 3 is reason enough to decline the option. It was a bad pick. I hope he figures it out but he's not worth a roster spot at this point in time.

Basically a G league guy when he got to the NBA. I mean the G league might benefit from him, but that's not what he meant..that he's still a G league guy or was when he got to Flagstaff. It was when he got to the NBA without any experience outside of youth leagues and high school and stuff.

[Revived]

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Even Kokoskov is seeing the benefit if he had played in the G league earlier in his career instead of being thrown to the wolves right away.

Yes, it would have been smart, because in the article that links to Igor says "He missed some steps in his journey to the NBA" like college because he went to the pros where they like to play vets, and played for a team in danger of relegation so they played the experienced guys.

So instead of college or playing for a year, he sat, and then as a rookie, he mostly sat and then got injured. That's two years of not much development. That's why I thought this year was important. I thought the shooting was encouraging last year and with Igor he could really expand things.

I wish he would have played in the G league as a rookie, but moreso, I which we would have had Igor as a coach instead of Watson.

Yup plus another underrated aspect of all foreign players is the language barrier. It takes time to gel with the teammates and get used to a whole new country especially at such a young age.

I would have liked to see what we could have done with Bender by just buying out Anderson as soon as he got here (even with the massive cap hit) and giving Bender those mins.

Would’ve been impossible for him to play worse than Anderson has.

[WeekapaugGroove]

A major factor in judging the declining of this option will be what they end up spending that $6M on next summer. If it helps land an impact player then it could prove to be the right move. If it's used to land another Tyson Chandler type well then it sucks.

I say this a little tongue and cheek but I think so many of their problems can be rooted back that dark day they traded for Brandon Knight. If that contract isn't on the books (which is now the Anderson contract) they would have cap space to spare next summer. Also if Brandon Knight isn't on the roster with a big contract in during the bender draft would they have been more inclined to take Murray or Dunn.. Maybe. And had they taken Murray or Dunn and not had Bender on the roster would they have been more likely to take Isaac last year? Maybe. Now I know someone will say if that happens they aren't awful enough to get Ayton... well maybe but maybe not since Booker missed a bunch of games, Isaac was hurt, and both Murray and Dunn struggled at the beginning of last year. I'm not sure they would have been significantly better.

[thr3ep01nte4]

Marquese Chriss' fourth year option has been declined by the Rockets. McD done good.

[lilfishi22]

The Suns have been really bad at utilizing their G league team in recent years. So many successful teams in the league today use their G league teams to develop guys who play rotation mins for them. Philly, San Antonio, Houston, Golden State are few of many examples.

I don’t understand why they never sent Chriss or Bender there. I don’t understand why they don’t Jackson there now. Or even Melton who is basically catching rust sitting on the bench.

It really feels like the last player to go down to the G-League is Archie Goodwin who had quite a few stints. I don't get why Melton isn't down there, he's basically been listed as inactive in the last few games so...

The G-League season starts on Friday...

Good point. We need guys down there, especially if we're not playing them

[lilfishi22]

Starting in 37 games is enough to evaluate a guy you spent the 4th pick of the draft on? I mean, where we picked him doesn't really matter at this point but still a guy who can shoot and move and is young and tentative like Diaw was when he was 22 isn't a guy you should give up on. Some guys are just tentative at the beginning of their careers like Diaw was and turn into decent players.

We are not in a position to give up young cheap guys who might develop into something, especially at the PF position.

But it's not about whether he'll develop into *something*. He needs to develop either into a player worth more than $6 million by next year or $7.5 million by the following season (qualifying offer). What if Dragan doesn't blossom until he's 25? That's not abnormal - plenty of players don't find their game until their mid-20s. But in Dragan's case, that would be the final year of whatever 4 year extension we sign him to, meaning that we will have paid him million and millions to develop, but end up with no RFA rights to keep him by the time he actually becomes useful - eight years of paychecks for one year of performance.

I saw a chart a couple seasons ago discussing how teams might be better off going after somewhat older players because the period of contractual control overlaps more with their period of productivity. Mikal Bridges will be 30 the summer he becomes free of our contractual control. Dragan was a baby when we drafted him and hasn't shown enough to make his RFA rights valuable. I get it. I hate it but I get it. Mostly, I just hate it.

He doesn't have to be worth $6 million next year. Almost all players are overpaid. Booker will not be worth his contract next year unless he learns defense, which is about as probable as Bender being worth $6 million. Ariza and Anderson are not worth their contracts. Most PGs are not nearly worth what they make. JJ isn't worth his contract right now and probably won't be next year but we picked up his option and he's older than Bender. We could always deal him for a 2nd because several teams will want to take a chance on him. He may not pan out but it's worth a shot when he finally has a good coach. Too late now though.

If he's worth something then he needs to show it. We can't keep paying him (no small amount) in the hope he turns into something. Ultimately $6m and a roster spot is not nothing which is what he is right now. If he's an actual NBA player, we'll give him something he deserves and potentially more lucrative like a multi-year deal worth more than $6m

I was listening to a podcast, I think it might've been Lowe and Woj but they were talking about how more teams should really decline 4th year options on the rookie deals of players who haven't shown to be NBA rotation players but GM's are reluctant to because it reflects badly on their draft selection.

[bwgood77]

But it's not about whether he'll develop into *something*. He needs to develop either into a player worth more than $6 million by next year or $7.5 million by the following season (qualifying offer). What if Dragan doesn't blossom until he's 25? That's not abnormal - plenty of players don't find their game until their mid-20s. But in Dragan's case, that would be the final year of whatever 4 year extension we sign him to, meaning that we will have paid him million and millions to develop, but end up with no RFA rights to keep him by the time he actually becomes useful - eight years of paychecks for one year of performance.

I saw a chart a couple seasons ago discussing how teams might be better off going after somewhat older players because the period of contractual control overlaps more with their period of productivity. Mikal Bridges will be 30 the summer he becomes free of our contractual control. Dragan was a baby when we drafted him and hasn't shown enough to make his RFA rights valuable. I get it. I hate it but I get it. Mostly, I just hate it.

He doesn't have to be worth $6 million next year. Almost all players are overpaid. Booker will not be worth his contract next year unless he learns defense, which is about as probable as Bender being worth $6 million. Ariza and Anderson are not worth their contracts. Most PGs are not nearly worth what they make. JJ isn't worth his contract right now and probably won't be next year but we picked up his option and he's older than Bender. We could always deal him for a 2nd because several teams will want to take a chance on him. He may not pan out but it's worth a shot when he finally has a good coach. Too late now though.

If he's worth something then he needs to show it. We can't keep paying him (no small amount) in the hope he turns into something. Ultimately $6m and a roster spot is not nothing which is what he is right now. If he's an actual NBA player, we'll give him something he deserves and potentially more lucrative like a multi-year deal worth more than $6m

I was listening to a podcast, I think it might've been Lowe and Woj but they were talking about how more teams should really decline 4th year options on the rookie deals of players who haven't shown to be NBA rotation players but GM's are reluctant to because it reflects badly on their draft selection.

It seems like you've posted almost the exact thing before in argument, but I disagree if you think he has potential, and disagree with Lowe/WOJ, particularly when you are not in cap trouble or tax territory and especially when you can easily create max cap space the following summer.

Last year was a joke for everyone with no PG. The only guys that looked decent were 3/4 a season of TJ and 2/3 a season of Booker....though Warren didn't have the 3 yet and not much D and Booker had no D. Last year was basically Bender's rookie season after not playing for a year.

If he shows something this year, other teams can outbid us because what we can offer him is limited. I do think that if he fit in well with the team and liked Igor, there is a chance he might stay for comfort if other offers were in a similar range, but to take away your rights to match a pick takes away all leverage, and other teams have more than you do since they are able to offer more.

[lilfishi22]

You've posted the exact same thing as well about how he didn't play in his rookie season, coaching changes etc etc yeah his NBA development isn't ideal but how many players have 'ideal' development?

Booker, Warren and even JJ were productive through coaching changes, a highly question system and under performing coaches. Bender hasn't shown enough and if he can't even beat old man Ryno for minutes then either Igor is a terrible coach (still up in the air) or Bender just isn't good (more likely)

Your entire premise is that Bender is somehow cheap so why not retain him since he still has potential. But he isn't cheap, especially when he's shown so little. Maybe, just maybe Bender will reach his potential, at 25-26 that's 5 years from now. Are we really going to wait that long, keep paying him good money and keep allowing him to be a non-NBA caliber player taking up a spot on our roster for a guy who might never turn into anything? It's all good and great to have his rights but it's worthless if he isn't an NBA player

I see the potential that he has. I see the player he theoretically could be. But objectively, I don't have enough to convince me that he's worth seeing it through

[bwgood77]

You've posted the exact same thing as well about how he didn't play in his rookie season, coaching changes etc etc yeah his NBA development isn't ideal but how many players have 'ideal' development?

Booker, Warren and even JJ were productive through coaching changes, a highly question system and under performing coaches. Bender hasn't shown enough and if he can't even beat old man Ryno for minutes then either Igor is a terrible coach (still up in the air) or Bender just isn't good (more likely)

Your entire premise is that Bender is somehow cheap so why not retain him since he still has potential. But he isn't cheap, especially when he's shown so little. Maybe, just maybe Bender will reach his potential, at 25-26 that's 5 years from now. Are we really going to wait that long, keep paying him good money and keep allowing him to be a non-NBA caliber player taking up a spot on our roster for a guy who might never turn into anything? It's all good and great to have his rights but it's worthless if he isn't an NBA player

I see the potential that he has. I see the player he theoretically could be. But objectively, I don't have enough to convince me that he's worth seeing it through

JJ wasn't productive...he never has been. He put up raw very empty negative numbers last year in that last half. People got fooled with those raw stats. He had a few good games and improved a lot from the beginning but was still one of the worst players in the league.

Warren had two years in college and was ACC player of the year over Parker and didn't really play until his 2nd year (which I think ended prematurely in injury when he started playing well). So it would have been dumb to not exercise his option either. So last year he played well in many ways, and Booker stepped it up on offense other than almost leading the NBA in turnovers...but he played for a near championship and close to undefeated team in college and great coach in Calipari.

Just not a logical smart decision.

[SwingMan1938]

I'd still like to know just why Bender hasn't spent one single second up in Prescott despite being the one who most desperately needed it from the day he arrived in 2016? Oh well.

The Suns have been really bad at utilizing their G league team in recent years. So many successful teams in the league today use their G league teams to develop guys who play rotation mins for them. Philly, San Antonio, Houston, Golden State are few of many examples.

I don’t understand why they never sent Chriss or Bender there. I don’t understand why they don’t Jackson there now. Or even Melton who is basically catching rust sitting on the bench.

Yeah, it's idiotic in its most basic aspect - players that badly need development aren't going to the *development* league.

I mean, I realize that, like SL, the G-league favors guards more than anyone, but getting consistent run helps *everyone*.

We're not in tank mode anymore - *help* the kids, for pete's sake.....

[SwingMan1938]

I just can't fathom that Ryan effing Anderson is considered a better player than Bender by our FO.
A player Houston, a contender, had - despite a huge contract and in theory being perfect for their system - rotting on the bench because he was so terrible yet we, a rebuilding team play him as a starter in front of young guys. I'd rather play a young guy with only a 5% chance of panning out than this guy who's 100% not going anywhere (and being effing terrible at the same time).

I wish I could abandon my fandom. This FO is killing me.

It takes a difficult amount of patience, for sure - I truly believe that Melton's prime for bursting out as a 2-way bench sparkplug.

When the world first heard Herman P. Blount numb-fumbling a hectic boogie behind Wynonie Harris for the Tennessee-based Bullet Records in 1946, there was absolutely nothing that belied a musical visionary that was to become in the next decade. It's things like that that can inspire patience.

[lilfishi22]

You've posted the exact same thing as well about how he didn't play in his rookie season, coaching changes etc etc yeah his NBA development isn't ideal but how many players have 'ideal' development?

Booker, Warren and even JJ were productive through coaching changes, a highly question system and under performing coaches. Bender hasn't shown enough and if he can't even beat old man Ryno for minutes then either Igor is a terrible coach (still up in the air) or Bender just isn't good (more likely)

Your entire premise is that Bender is somehow cheap so why not retain him since he still has potential. But he isn't cheap, especially when he's shown so little. Maybe, just maybe Bender will reach his potential, at 25-26 that's 5 years from now. Are we really going to wait that long, keep paying him good money and keep allowing him to be a non-NBA caliber player taking up a spot on our roster for a guy who might never turn into anything? It's all good and great to have his rights but it's worthless if he isn't an NBA player

I see the potential that he has. I see the player he theoretically could be. But objectively, I don't have enough to convince me that he's worth seeing it through

JJ wasn't productive...he never has been. He put up raw very empty negative numbers last year in that last half. People got fooled with those raw stats. He had a few good games and improved a lot from the beginning but was still one of the worst players in the league.

Warren had two years in college and was ACC player of the year over Parker and didn't really play until his 2nd year (which I think ended prematurely in injury when he started playing well). So it would have been dumb to not exercise his option either. So last year he played well in many ways, and Booker stepped it up on offense other than almost leading the NBA in turnovers...but he played for a near championship and close to undefeated team in college and great coach in Calipari.

Just not a logical smart decision.

He was productive. He didn't have a positive impact but he was productive. Most rookies don't have a positive impact nor are they efficient except for the really good ones. But he was able to produce on the court, he showed he had the skill and the physical ability to do so. The next step for rookies is to become a positive impact by making better decisions, being more efficient and understanding the nuances of both ends of the court. That comes with time but at the very least, at the VERY least he still had a great stretch averaging 18.5/6/2.5a post all-star. That isn't nothing and nothing Bender has done over any stretch came close to this level of above average production at his position.

It's absolutely a smart, reasonable and rational decision based on what we've seen and what we know about Bender's weakness. It's not like he has a bad form on his shot that needs to be fixed. It's not like he's unable to attack the close out. It's not like he doesn't see the passes to make. It's not like he doesn't have range. It's that he doesn't actually do any of those things on the court for whatever reason. You can't pay a guy $6m a year to do nothing, no matter how much you like him

[bwgood77]

You've posted the exact same thing as well about how he didn't play in his rookie season, coaching changes etc etc yeah his NBA development isn't ideal but how many players have 'ideal' development?

Booker, Warren and even JJ were productive through coaching changes, a highly question system and under performing coaches. Bender hasn't shown enough and if he can't even beat old man Ryno for minutes then either Igor is a terrible coach (still up in the air) or Bender just isn't good (more likely)

Your entire premise is that Bender is somehow cheap so why not retain him since he still has potential. But he isn't cheap, especially when he's shown so little. Maybe, just maybe Bender will reach his potential, at 25-26 that's 5 years from now. Are we really going to wait that long, keep paying him good money and keep allowing him to be a non-NBA caliber player taking up a spot on our roster for a guy who might never turn into anything? It's all good and great to have his rights but it's worthless if he isn't an NBA player

I see the potential that he has. I see the player he theoretically could be. But objectively, I don't have enough to convince me that he's worth seeing it through

JJ wasn't productive...he never has been. He put up raw very empty negative numbers last year in that last half. People got fooled with those raw stats. He had a few good games and improved a lot from the beginning but was still one of the worst players in the league.

Warren had two years in college and was ACC player of the year over Parker and didn't really play until his 2nd year (which I think ended prematurely in injury when he started playing well). So it would have been dumb to not exercise his option either. So last year he played well in many ways, and Booker stepped it up on offense other than almost leading the NBA in turnovers...but he played for a near championship and close to undefeated team in college and great coach in Calipari.

Just not a logical smart decision.

He was productive. He didn't have a positive impact but he was productive. Most rookies don't have a positive impact nor are they efficient except for the really good ones. But he was able to produce on the court, he showed he had the skill and the physical ability to do so. The next step for rookies is to become a positive impact by making better decisions, being more efficient and understanding the nuances of both ends of the court. That comes with time but at the very least, at the VERY least he still had a great stretch averaging 18.5/6/2.5a post all-star. That isn't nothing and nothing Bender has done over any stretch came close to this level of above average production at his position.

It's absolutely a smart, reasonable and rational decision based on what we've seen and what we know about Bender's weakness. It's not like he has a bad form on his shot that needs to be fixed. It's not like he's unable to attack the close out. It's not like he doesn't see the passes to make. It's not like he doesn't have range. It's that he doesn't actually do any of those things on the court for whatever reason. You can't pay a guy $6m a year to do nothing, no matter how much you like him

I don't care about raw production when it comes on far below league avg efficiency (TS%) and when turnovers exceed assists. You have to realize the more a guy is scoring on that type of efficiency, the more he hurts the team...he's not helping...he's hurting. Bender was a role player who was supposed to hit 3s and he did that effectively.

[lilfishi22]

You don't care about raw production, fine. But Bender wasn't even at average efficiency either nor did he have the raw numbers. Their RPM were within range of each other so he wasn't impactful either.

Face it, we drafted a G-league player who hasn't really shown he's more than a G-Leaguer

[TheLogician]

I can only assume he'll be used as filler in a deadline deal. He's not getting minutes and wasn't even hitting threes in SL/preseason.