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Starting Humphries isn't a palatable option IMO. Neither is starting Oubre. I'm not a Humphries fan... he's an empty numbers guy/poor defender. He's barely a rotation player IMO although I'll likely be alone in that sentiment.

With Pierce leaving & Nene's steep decline over the 2nd half of last year we've got some big holes to fill. Not to mention needs at backup C (although I assume Nene will get the bulk of his minutes there) & an upgrade needed in the backcourt.

I think unless Ernie pulls a rabbit out the hat, I think a step back may be inevitable. The East cannot be bad forever. The Heat, Pacers, Celtics, Raps, Magic all look stronger. I think adding guys like Alan Anderson & Derrick Williams moves the needle very little. Yeah, it's depth but it's not quality depth. Sorta like Humphries, he's ok reserve but not a guy that's winning a lot of his battles.

Maybe Wall goes God mode and Beal becomes an all-star... in that case we may be able to keep pace with everyone else.

payitforward wrote:Noted in a piece a couple of days old that the Hawks may have to cut Muscala for cap room -- if so, he'd be a great pick up for us.

Nah, he's an asset.

Mike Muscala will play for the Hawks’ entry in the Las Vegas Summer League. The Hawks center is entering his third year and will likely have a greater role during the upcoming regular season with the departures of centers Elton Brand and Pero Antic.

Dat2U wrote:Starting Humphries isn't a palatable option IMO. Neither is starting Oubre. I'm not a Humphries fan... he's an empty numbers guy/poor defender. He's barely a rotation player IMO although I'll likely be alone in that sentiment.

With Pierce leaving & Nene's steep decline over the 2nd half of last year we've got some big holes to fill. Not to mention needs at backup C (although I assume Nene will get the bulk of his minutes there) & an upgrade needed in the backcourt.

I think unless Ernie pulls a rabbit out the hat, I think a step back may be inevitable. The East cannot be bad forever. The Heat, Pacers, Celtics, Raps, Magic all look stronger. I think adding guys like Alan Anderson & Derrick Williams moves the needle very little. Yeah, it's depth but it's not quality depth. Sorta like Humphries, he's ok reserve but not a guy that's winning a lot of his battles.

Maybe Wall goes God mode and Beal becomes an all-star... in that case we may be able to keep pace with everyone else.

nothings palatable, thats the thing, and I guess my thought is if thats the case might as well accelerate Oubre's development as much as you can and see if Porter can play a little 4

you've literally got almost nothing else to gain out of the season (barring trade/awesome fa pickup) besides the possibility that Beal somehow becomes a gawd

Dark Faze wrote:We're going to make the playoffs with or without Oubre getting meaningful minutes.

I don't think this is true.

We should be roughly similar to last year with Porter's emergence replacing Pierce's departure. Start Oubre and play him 30 minutes and we're probably at least 4 wins worse than last year.

Last year, we were the 5th seed despite relative health. Atlanta will probably decline a small amount, but they'll stay in front of us. Cleveland, Chicago and Toronto all figure to be equal or better than last year and should stay in front of us. So at best, we're 5th again. Now factor the return of Miami and the improvement of Milwaukee. We could easily drop to 7. Then all it will take is for two of Indy, Boston, Detroit, Orlando, Charlotte or New York go make a jump and we could miss the playoffs.

I'm not saying Oubre should never see the floor. I'm all for developing young players, even if it costs us a win or two throughout the season. But starting 19-year-old rookies is something only bottom-feeders do.

I guess it depends on whether you think Oubre would hurt us more than Nene or Hump in the starting lineup.

To me, Wall/Beal/Porter/Hump/Gortat would put us in the lottery. So we'll have to go with Wall/Beal/Porter/Nene/Gortat, which will come down almost completely to Nene's health and how much more he'll have declined.

Maybe w'ell get contract year Nene, who knows

Dat2U wrote:Starting Humphries isn't a palatable option IMO. Neither is starting Oubre. I'm not a Humphries fan... he's an empty numbers guy/poor defender. He's barely a rotation player IMO although I'll likely be alone in that sentiment.

With Pierce leaving & Nene's steep decline over the 2nd half of last year we've got some big holes to fill. Not to mention needs at backup C (although I assume Nene will get the bulk of his minutes there) & an upgrade needed in the backcourt.

I think unless Ernie pulls a rabbit out the hat, I think a step back may be inevitable. The East cannot be bad forever. The Heat, Pacers, Celtics, Raps, Magic all look stronger. I think adding guys like Alan Anderson & Derrick Williams moves the needle very little. Yeah, it's depth but it's not quality depth. Sorta like Humphries, he's ok reserve but not a guy that's winning a lot of his battles.

Maybe Wall goes God mode and Beal becomes an all-star... in that case we may be able to keep pace with everyone else.

I don't get your hate for Humphries. The numbers don't bear it out.

The team went 10-6 last year in games Humphries started. Humphries had a +3.2 differential as a starter. (For comparison, Nene had a +3.6 on/off differential as a starter.)

Humphries on/off differential for the entire year when alongside Wall was +3.4. (For comparison, Nene's was +5.5).

I think Humphries is palatable as a starter. He'd be better off as a 22-24 mpg reserve, but I think we won't lose much if he starts. In fact, if Nene moves to full time backup C, and Humphries and Gooden split all the PF minutes, we might conceivably be better off because they will ultimately be taking Seraphin's minutes.

nate33 wrote:

Dat2U wrote:Starting Humphries isn't a palatable option IMO. Neither is starting Oubre. I'm not a Humphries fan... he's an empty numbers guy/poor defender. He's barely a rotation player IMO although I'll likely be alone in that sentiment.

With Pierce leaving & Nene's steep decline over the 2nd half of last year we've got some big holes to fill. Not to mention needs at backup C (although I assume Nene will get the bulk of his minutes there) & an upgrade needed in the backcourt.

I think unless Ernie pulls a rabbit out the hat, I think a step back may be inevitable. The East cannot be bad forever. The Heat, Pacers, Celtics, Raps, Magic all look stronger. I think adding guys like Alan Anderson & Derrick Williams moves the needle very little. Yeah, it's depth but it's not quality depth. Sorta like Humphries, he's ok reserve but not a guy that's winning a lot of his battles.

Maybe Wall goes God mode and Beal becomes an all-star... in that case we may be able to keep pace with everyone else.

I don't get your hate for Humphries. The numbers don't bear it out.

The team went 10-6 last year in games Humphries started. Humphries had a +3.2 differential as a starter. (For comparison, Nene had a +3.6 on/off differential as a starter.)

Humphries on/off differential for the entire year when alongside Wall was +3.4. (For comparison, Nene's was +5.5).

I think Humphries is palatable as a starter. He'd be better off as a 22-24 mpg reserve, but I think we won't lose much if he starts. In fact, if Nene moves to full time backup C, and Humphries and Gooden split all the PF minutes, we might conceivably be better off because they will ultimately be taking Seraphin's minutes.

He becomes a lot more valuable if he can develop a three-point shot. He'll never be a rim protector and is an average defender at best. Unfortunately, there's not much available outside of Carlos Boozer (joking).

nate33 wrote:I don't get your hate for Humphries. The numbers don't bear it out.

The team went 10-6 last year in games Humphries started. Humphries had a +3.2 differential as a starter. (For comparison, Nene had a +3.6 on/off differential as a starter.)

Humphries on/off differential for the entire year when alongside Wall was +3.4. (For comparison, Nene's was +5.5).

I think Humphries is palatable as a starter. He'd be better off as a 22-24 mpg reserve, but I think we won't lose much if he starts. In fact, if Nene moves to full time backup C, and Humphries and Gooden split all the PF minutes, we might conceivably be better off because they will ultimately be taking Seraphin's minutes.

I also liked the way Hump performed as a starter last season. I thought he and the other starters were starting to develop some decent chemistry. I wanted Hump to continue as the starter even when Nene was healthy.

Hump doesn’t have S4 range and is a mediocre defender, but he’s a great rebounder, consistently sticks the midrange jumper and is pretty good at getting out on the break and running with JWall.

Not saying Hump is the answer. But I could see him in the starting lineup, especially if the Zards are able to find and sign a decent S4 to back him up along with Gooden.

Of course, a young backup big like a Withey or Biyombo and a combo backup guard would also be nice.

nate33 wrote:

Dat2U wrote:Starting Humphries isn't a palatable option IMO. Neither is starting Oubre. I'm not a Humphries fan... he's an empty numbers guy/poor defender. He's barely a rotation player IMO although I'll likely be alone in that sentiment.

With Pierce leaving & Nene's steep decline over the 2nd half of last year we've got some big holes to fill. Not to mention needs at backup C (although I assume Nene will get the bulk of his minutes there) & an upgrade needed in the backcourt.

I think unless Ernie pulls a rabbit out the hat, I think a step back may be inevitable. The East cannot be bad forever. The Heat, Pacers, Celtics, Raps, Magic all look stronger. I think adding guys like Alan Anderson & Derrick Williams moves the needle very little. Yeah, it's depth but it's not quality depth. Sorta like Humphries, he's ok reserve but not a guy that's winning a lot of his battles.

Maybe Wall goes God mode and Beal becomes an all-star... in that case we may be able to keep pace with everyone else.

I don't get your hate for Humphries. The numbers don't bear it out.

The team went 10-6 last year in games Humphries started. Humphries had a +3.2 differential as a starter. (For comparison, Nene had a +3.6 on/off differential as a starter.)

Humphries on/off differential for the entire year when alongside Wall was +3.4. (For comparison, Nene's was +5.5).

I think Humphries is palatable as a starter. He'd be better off as a 22-24 mpg reserve, but I think we won't lose much if he starts. In fact, if Nene moves to full time backup C, and Humphries and Gooden split all the PF minutes, we might conceivably be better off because they will ultimately be taking Seraphin's minutes.

Small sample size theatre. His on/off numbers historically are quite poor and weren't any better last year despite the small sample size where he was ok as a starter. You can't compare starting someone for 10-15 games due to injury vs. being the assumed starter for 82 games.

Humphries shouldn't start for ANYONE in the league, much less a team with actual aspirations. It's bad enough he's a likely rotation player. I'm not a fan of the guy because his numbers lie. While he's a good mid-range shooter, teams don't respect him from there. He creates no spacing. It doesn't help if you make 40% of your 20 footers if your actually NOT spacing the floor. Sorta like Trevor Booker. He got to the point where he was making jumpers on a consistent basis, but he was so low usage, teams happily sagged off of him and dared him to shoot anyways. Despite the offensive efficiency he still made life harder for his teammates offensively because the defense is never worried about him. When you add that to the fact he's always been a drag defensively because of poor awareness/recognition... it's simply not an option to have him penciled in as starter.

DCZards wrote:

nate33 wrote:I don't get your hate for Humphries. The numbers don't bear it out.

The team went 10-6 last year in games Humphries started. Humphries had a +3.2 differential as a starter. (For comparison, Nene had a +3.6 on/off differential as a starter.)

Humphries on/off differential for the entire year when alongside Wall was +3.4. (For comparison, Nene's was +5.5).

I think Humphries is palatable as a starter. He'd be better off as a 22-24 mpg reserve, but I think we won't lose much if he starts. In fact, if Nene moves to full time backup C, and Humphries and Gooden split all the PF minutes, we might conceivably be better off because they will ultimately be taking Seraphin's minutes.

I also liked the way Hump performed as a starter last season. I thought he and the other starters were starting to develop some decent chemistry. I wanted Hump to continue as the starter even when Nene was healthy.

Hump doesn’t have S4 range and is a mediocre defender, but

Exactly... he's a drag offensively and a drag defensively but other than that he's great. We gotta strive for more.

We can't go into next year with Hump, Gooden & a bargain basement signing and think everything is going to be okay. In that scenario missing the playoffs becomes a real possibility.

Milwaukee signs Monroe!

This is big news on two fronts. First, it means Milwaukee probably just leapfrogged us in the East.

Second, I don't see how the can afford him and stay under the cap. They're going to have to make some other moves. Hopefully one of those moves is Dudley to Washington for a TPE.

nate33 wrote:Milwaukee signs Monroe!

This is big news on two fronts. First, it means Milwaukee probably just leapfrogged us in the East.

Second, I don't see how the can afford him and stay under the cap. They're going to have to make some other moves. Hopefully one of those moves is Dudley to Washington for a TPE.

I like that signing for MIL. Their forwards are athletic enough to compensate for Monroe's lack of speed. He may not run and gun w/ the thoroughbreds, but he's a good enough passer to start fast breaks.

Dat2U wrote:We can't go into next year with Hump, Gooden & a bargain basement signing and think everything is going to be okay. In that scenario missing the playoffs becomes a real possibility.

I still don't see the big deal. Yes, I'd like an upgrade, but I just don't understand the doom and gloom.

Pierce played no stretch four last year. Our big man rotation was Gortat for 2400 minutes, Nene for 1700 minutes, Humphries for 1400 minutes, Seraphin for 1300 minutes, Gooden for 800 minutes, Blair for 200 minutes.

This year, I expect Nene to play about 200 less minutes and Seraphin to play 1300 less minutes. That's 1500 minutes to make up. Humphries will get about 600 of them, Gooden will get 600 and Blair will get 300. That's a good thing. All those guys are better than Seraphin.

Would it make any sense to pursue David West? Do we have the money to throw at him? We need a stretch-4 and, while West isn't a 3pt threat, he's one of the best mid-range shooters at the 4-spot in the league. Randy would be in 7th Heaven.

He's looking at the Spurs (who are about to sign Aldridge leaving little PT and no starting job for West) and the Warriors (where he would be a reserve). Gotta think he wants to start and play 30mpg.

Okay Ernie. Let's sign Biyombo and trade our TPE for Dudley. That would be a good offseason. Make it so.

nate33 wrote:

mhd wrote:What happens if David Lee gets bought out (Say for the value of the MLE)? I don't see anyone trading for him. GSW save that money for luxury tax payments. Lee & Beal are close (both share the same trainer and are from St. Louis). We could offer the MLE as simply...hey we'll give you a starting spot on a playoff team and you'll make the same money you are making now. We then trade Nene+Webster+Blair for Joe Johnson, and sign a vet as a backup center like Whitey for the BAE.

PG: Wall/Sessions
SG: Beal/Temple/Oubre
SF: Johnson/Porter/Oubre
PF: Lee/Humpries/Johnson
C: Gortat/Vet

That works for me.

It's still not ideal because that's a team that is heavily dependent on a bunch of 30+ year olds in the front court, but at least it'll be very competitive next year.

If I had the choice, I'd prefer to sign Biyombo with the MLE, make that same Nene trade, and then resign Gooden on a 1-year deal. At least that way we'd have a young big man in our front court:

PG: Wall/Sessions
SG: Beal/Temple/Oubre
SF: Johnson/Porter/Oubre
PF: Humpries/Gooden/Johnson
C: Gortat/Biyombo

That's not bad.

miller31time wrote:Would it make any sense to pursue David West? Do we have the money to throw at him? We need a stretch-4 and, while West isn't a 3pt threat, he's one of the best mid-range shooters at the 4-spot in the league. Randy would be in 7th Heaven.

He's looking at the Spurs (who are about to sign Aldridge leaving little PT and no starting job for West) and the Warriors (where he would be a reserve). Gotta think he wants to start and play 30mpg.

I'm not interested in West. I really want to get away from bully ball and open up the offense for Wall and Gortat.

nate33 wrote:

miller31time wrote:Would it make any sense to pursue David West? Do we have the money to throw at him? We need a stretch-4 and, while West isn't a 3pt threat, he's one of the best mid-range shooters at the 4-spot in the league. Randy would be in 7th Heaven.

He's looking at the Spurs (who are about to sign Aldridge leaving little PT and no starting job for West) and the Warriors (where he would be a reserve). Gotta think he wants to start and play 30mpg.

I'm not interested in West. I really want to get away from bully ball and open up the offense for Wall and Gortat.

I'd rather sign a legit name-brand stretch 4 but I don't see anyone on the market. I wouldn't classify West as a "bully ball" player because of his propensity to shoot the jumpshot. I think him and Wall would be pretty deadly in the P&R to be honest.

nate33 wrote:

miller31time wrote:Would it make any sense to pursue David West? Do we have the money to throw at him? We need a stretch-4 and, while West isn't a 3pt threat, he's one of the best mid-range shooters at the 4-spot in the league. Randy would be in 7th Heaven.

He's looking at the Spurs (who are about to sign Aldridge leaving little PT and no starting job for West) and the Warriors (where he would be a reserve). Gotta think he wants to start and play 30mpg.

I'm not interested in West. I really want to get away from bully ball and open up the offense for Wall and Gortat.

The Spurs think he can help apparently as he's leaning towards signing there. Good locker room guy. Not a stretch 4 though he does have some range. Tough rebounder. On the decline.

miller31time wrote:

nate33 wrote:

miller31time wrote:Would it make any sense to pursue David West? Do we have the money to throw at him? We need a stretch-4 and, while West isn't a 3pt threat, he's one of the best mid-range shooters at the 4-spot in the league. Randy would be in 7th Heaven.

He's looking at the Spurs (who are about to sign Aldridge leaving little PT and no starting job for West) and the Warriors (where he would be a reserve). Gotta think he wants to start and play 30mpg.

I'm not interested in West. I really want to get away from bully ball and open up the offense for Wall and Gortat.

I'd rather sign a legit name-brand stretch 4 but I don't see anyone on the market. I wouldn't classify West as a "bully ball" player because of his propensity to shoot the jumpshot. I think him and Wall would be pretty deadly in the P&R to be honest.

I'm leery of signing any kind of long term contract for a 34-year-old. I'd rather spend the money on a young center and make due with Humphries (and hopefully Gooden) at PF.

West is declining quickly. His ORtg dipped to 103 last year and his on/off differential plummeted from +9.1 to -2.4. I'd only sign him to a 1-year deal. And I'd only do that if Biyombo signs elsewhere.