most clutch players in NBA

[Imon]

The thing that Lebron apologists need to realize is that no matter how many numbers you throw out there this is not a purely objective argument.

The reason why a guy like Kobe has a clutch reputation, even though many people believe the numbers don't back it up, is because, while he takes a lot of last second shots, he still makes last second shots.
You know how some people say some points feel more emphatic than others? Like a dunk on a fast break after a steal that brings a crowd to its feet is still 2 points like an ordinary jump shot but it feels like it's worth more.

Kobe has a long compilation of game winners. I don't know how many game ending shots Lebron has but it's probably far less than Kobe's. Those are the shots everyone remembers not the shots you make on a spreadsheet with parameters like "5 minutes left" or "5 points or less".
That doesn't tell whether or not he made the game winning shot or not. They could have still lost that game. Like it or not, this is just how it is and there will always be intangibles thrown into the argument. Statistics are a part of the argument but not ALL the argument.

I remember hearing Bill Simmons talk about his NBA panel colleagues Magic Johnson and Jalen Rose once. He said he was convinced Rudy Gay is not a good player because the stats show he is inefficient but he said Magic and Jalen insisted Rudy Gay is a good player.
Believe this ... if Lebron starts hitting a ton of game winners people's perception about him WILL change even if he misses a lot of them. And things like "clutchness" will continued to be defined by cult of legend that grows behind players like Kobe.

[Egg Nog]

The thing that Lebron apologists need to realize is that no matter how many numbers you throw out there this is not a purely objective argument.

The reason why a guy like Kobe has a clutch reputation, even though many people believe the numbers don't back it up, is because, while he takes a lot of last second shots, he still makes last second shots.
You know how some people say some points feel more emphatic than others? Like a dunk on a fast break after a steal that brings a crowd to its feet is still 2 points like an ordinary jump shot but it feels like it's worth more.

Kobe has a long compilation of game winners. I don't know how many game ending shots Lebron has but it's probably far less than Kobe's. Those are the shots everyone remembers not the shots you make on a spreadsheet with parameters like "5 minutes left" or "5 points or less".
That doesn't tell whether or not he made the game winning shot or not. They could have still lost that game. Like it or not, this is just how it is and there will always be intangibles thrown into the argument. Statistics are a part of the argument but not ALL the argument.

I remember hearing Bill Simmons talk about his NBA panel colleagues Magic Johnson and Jalen Rose once. He said he was convinced Rudy Gay is not a good player because the stats show he is inefficient but he said Magic and Jalen insisted Rudy Gay is a good player.
Believe this ... if Lebron starts hitting a ton of game winners people's perception about him WILL change even if he misses a lot of them. And things like "clutchness" will continued to be defined by cult of legend that grows behind players like Kobe.

I just read this three times and I still don't know exactly what you're trying to say... if something other than statistics is what defines clutchness in any real sense, it can't be rational. The fact that people remember the makes better than the misses doesn't change the reality of what happened.

...unless your point is simply about the perception of clutchness, in which case I'd agree. But I'd say the perception is only that way because people fail to interpret these things objectively.

[EtchenBa]

LeBron doesn't need game winners. He's not the most clutch player in the game and of course not in the history of the game, but he's still a top clutch player. That really doesn't matter though because these conversations inevitably degenerate into "Kobe vs. LeBron in the clutch."

The arguments that suggest Kobe is more clutch that LeBron are so vacuous and empty, it's ridiculous. It just seems to boil down to the fact that Kobe WILL take the shot no matter what. Some people can convince themselves that this is a good thing, that it exemplifies a killer instinct or initiative or some other equally vague and unquantifiable quality.

Keep dreamin'

[NBA4EVA2010]

1) Kobe- Forget the stats, unlike Lebron EVERYONE knows Kobe is gonna take the shot and he still makes it
Sometimes. When facing Miami wade, ray Allen are all players you have to
Check so lebron doesn't have as much coverage as Kobe.

The reason you have to check all those players is because LeBron will find them if you leave them open. The fact that he will pass the ball to an open teammate is not a bad thing.

Kobe doesnt have Ray Allen or Dwayne Wade two BIG time clutch players. I'd love to see Lebrons clutch stats when he was in Cleveland.... Got a feeling it ain't as high as it is now.

You would be wrong! Infact, his all around numbers clutch numbers were even better on the Cavs his last 2-3 years there.


This is from early 2011..has to be updated though


Game Winning Shot Opportunity = 24 seconds or less left in the game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.






For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:

4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points"

2010-11




2009-10




2008-09




2007-08





...what we can see is that Lebron's +/-, eff, rebounding, ast, block and stls were on a godly level in his Cavs days in the clutch...even his 2010-2011, first season the heat where he seemed to "struggle" compared to his previous Cavs days are still elite all around. In 2008 he avg a triple double in the clutch!

[FlightNumber23]

Like I said, Kyrie....

I dont know why every stat that has been brought up in this thread has been from when Lebron was in Cleveland. He scored more points, in less mins which shooting a better percentage than lebron. In the last 2 years in the league, Kyrie has been the most clutch player in the NBA. And like I said before, dude has more game winners in 2 years then Lebron did in 7.

Also found this from his rookie year:

"The 20-year-old rookie leads the NBA in added usage in clutch situations. He normally uses "just" 27.9 percent of his team's possessions, but when the going gets tough, Irving gets going. In clutch situations, Irving raises his usage rate to 47.2 percent, which is tied for the highest in the NBA along with Carmelo Anthony. And he's not just chucking up shots like Anthony; Irving has made just as many crunch-time shots as Anthony in 28 fewer attempts."

Heres another from last year:

Per 48 minute of production
1. Kyrie Irving: 56.4ppg, 54.4%
2. Kevin Durant: 50.8ppg, 41.1%
3. Carmelo Anthony: 43.6ppg, 35.4%
4. Russell Westbrook: 41.1ppg, 49.4%
5. Chris Paul: 40.6ppg, 42.5%


12. Kobe Bryant: 36.3ppg, 32.7%

These are just some stats taken throughout the year.



Another quote from 82 games:

"Kyrie Irving actually LED the NBA in points per 48 minutes of clutch time. He scored 56.4 points per 48 minutes of clutch time. That is 6 points more than the second place guy, Kevin Durant. Too add to that, his field goal percentage rocketed up to 54.4% when the game is on the line. Perhaps the most impressive part of this is that his buckets scored at the end of games are hardly ever assisted on. Just 19% of his buckets in the vital portions of games come from a teammate's assist. That means he is taking on the entire defense and creating his own shot. And he does it with startling efficiency."

Alright im done trying now lol

[TheOUTLAW]

relegating clutch to just game ending shots is truly idiotic.

[Magic Boo]

Clutch scoring? Kyrie Irving, and its not even close.

Overall clutch play? Dwyane Wade.

[irie]

If being clutch isn't real, when Dirk, Lebron, CP3, Pierce, Kobe, Melo, Kyrie, Allen, or even players like Curry, Gay, or Manu have the ball at the end of the game-- your heart doesn't start pounding while you plead to the basketball gods they don't sink a basket and win the game?

And yet all of those players are already good players and scorers... People fear them at any point of a game. I doubt people don't fear them in the first 3 quarters but then all of a sudden in the last shot, they start to shake. The last shot means more because the clock will run out and the game could be over. It doesn't make them clutch, it just makes them good. All of those players you listed, I would fear their scoring at any point of a game, not just the last shot.

Again, players who are clutch are already damn good anyways in the first 3 quarters. There aren't any mediocre players that get some superpower in the last minutes of a game and turn into a dominant player. I'm sure someone will reference Derek Fisher or Robert Horry, well, how many times have those guys created a shot for themselves and if they had to, would you still fear them? I doubt it. People fear them when they are wide open because a wide open shot is a high percentage shot.

I think Ray Allen (one of the guys listed) could definitely fall into that role player category now. Pierce is getting there. I think this year with the Nets he will be used more in the 4th quarter than in previous ones because of his reputation as a late game / 4th quarter scorer.

Overall I agree though. Most of those guys are feared as clutch scorers because they are good scorers, period.

[NBA4EVA2010]

2013 regular season clutch stats were still dominated by lebron. Look @ the shot attempts, eff and all around doiminance. Lebron put up 15.2 rbs 14.9 ast and only 2.7 TO's in the clutch vs 5.5 rbs 6.7 ast and and a god awful 10.0 turnovers up in the clutch



Look @ lebrons +/- in the clucth ..thats IMPACT!!

[PCProductions]

You can't say anything to disprove the "Kobe Clutch" myth. You just can't.

[narmerguy]

You can't say anything to disprove the "Kobe Clutch" myth. You just can't.

That's what lazy viewership and a few years of media narrative will do for you.

[boateng]

Lebron and kobe fans argue as if they actually know both players on a personal level. I know it's a forum where we discuss things but lebron and kobe fans take it to another level.
Pathetic.