Official Raptors 2012 NBA Draft Thread, Part 5

[lucky777s]

Right now I am a Barnes or Lamb guy. But waiting for the tournament games to hopefully get a better look at some others. But I would love to see these 2 guys work out for the Raps and compare their skills.

[SkywalkerAC]

Anyone else like Glen Rice as a comparison for Barnes? Big and strong for a wing shooter. High, quick shooting stroke. Athletic but not a fluid dribble-driver. Game predicated around the perimeter J. Rice average 17/9/2 as a sophomore at Michigan.

[Kabookalu]

Anyone else like Glen Rice as a comparison for Barnes? Big and strong for a wing shooter. High, quick shooting stroke. Athletic but not a fluid dribble-driver. Game predicated around the perimeter J. Rice average 17/9/2 as a sophomore at Michigan.

I like that one, never would have thought of that.

[DreamTeam09]

Anyone else like Glen Rice as a comparison for Barnes? Big and strong for a wing shooter. High, quick shooting stroke. Athletic but not a fluid dribble-driver. Game predicated around the perimeter J. Rice average 17/9/2 as a sophomore at Michigan.

I like mashburn more than I like Glen rice... I think the comparison is a little better too for Barnes...

[augustine]

Weak ballhandling, shooting and lateral quickness indicates a player who'd fit more as a small, quick PF than a big SF. Size at SF helps if you're a skilled enough player to nail those jumpshots over your defender, or explosive enough to still get by your man. I don't see that in T Jones. You can get a lot more offensively out of him as a PF who can blow by his man and has a ballhandling advantage over most bigs, than as a SF who's bigger and stronger than his opponents but not good enough to do much with it other than jack up shots

In particular on our team T Jones would be a weak fit at SF because both he and Demar would be bad 3pt shooters and not guys you want dribbling the ball and running the offense.

Some good comments here - thanks for that. I'm not entirely convinced yet though. I agree a 3pt shooter would be good beside Demar, but TJ is adequate in that regard (better than MKG at least). On the contrary, a big rebounding/athletic 3 appears necessary beside Bargnani. Recall how the Raptors were 9-3 when they had Marion playing with Bargs (Marion = moderate 3pt shooter, oversized 3, but gets boards/defense). It seems TJ fits this bill well.

About the explosive first step: I agree would be nice in a SF. But then, would you really rate MKG or HB as significantly preferable to TJ in this regard? Seems close enough to me.

About the lateral quicks in defending SF's: fair point, but TJ's steal and Block rate are much better than MKG and HB.

[Dr Positivity]

I just can't count on Barnes being like one of the greatest shooters of all time. I haven't seen enough, 40%+ from the NCAA 3pt line is not as absurd as in the NBA. I counted 18 guys in the DX database hitting 3s as a better rate than Barnes, with at least 1 3PM a game: http://www.draftexpress.com/stats.php?s ... =prospects 30 players total are over 40% with 1 3PM a game.

With numbers like that I'd be inclined to look at FT% to at least try and separate it out, and Barnes has one of the lowest in that category

Doron Lamb's shooting numbers are seriously impressive. 48% from 3 on 4 attempts a game and 82.3% from the FT line.

[Marlo Stanfield]

I just can't count on Barnes being like one of the greatest shooters of all time. I haven't seen enough, 40%+ from the NCAA 3pt line is not as absurd as in the NBA. I counted 18 guys in the DX database hitting 3s as a better rate than Barnes, with at least 1 3PM a game: http://www.draftexpress.com/stats.php?s ... =prospects 30 players total are over 40% with 1 3PM a game.

With numbers like that I'd be inclined to look at FT% to at least try and separate it out, and Barnes has one of the lowest in that category

Doron Lamb's shooting numbers are seriously impressive. 48% from 3 on 4 attempts a game and 82.3% from the FT line.

The difference is Barnes is the focal point of most defensive sets for his opponents whereas Doron Lamb is a guy who benefits from Davis, MKG, Miller, Williams and Teague.

[Undefeated]

The biggest reason I would HATE the Q Mill pick is I really don't see him making it as a 3 in the NBA. He's too slow and not skilled enough. I don't know if he could even be a 3 in college if Baylor wanted to play him there, if he can't do that there's no chance of it in the NBA. To me if he's good in the NBA he's Ryan Anderson or a Charlie V/Al Harrington/Channing Frye without their character flaws (lazy, selfish, and pussy, respectively). Mismatch stretch 4 who hits 3pters. I think he'll have an NBA career but as a stretch 4, which is the last thing we need. With his size and OK skill level there's little reason IMO to think he can transition to the 3.

Actually, Quincy Miller has been a lot quicker on his feet lately than he was back in December. You can tell that he's somewhat cautious of his knee with the way he's playing because it hasn't exactly been 2 years which is the expected amount of time to fully recover from a torn ACL, though. Then again, his game never relied on a whole lot of explosiveness, rather change of speed and quickness which I think he can work on to get it back.

But to say Quincy Miller is not skilled enough is crazy talk. He's got the best ankle-breaking ball skills out of any wing player from this class and can be a fine playmaker when he wants to dish out assists. He's known for his ball-handling at his size, and Ryan Anderson/Charlie V/Al Harrington/Channing Frye do not have the handles that rivals Quincy. He can be put into the role as the primary or secondary ball-handler which the Raptors need from the wing with a better ball game than James Johnson already. Although he mostly scores off of spot-ups and catch-and-shoot because of the offense running through Perry Jones III, but against all the ranked opponents Baylor has played where Perry Jones III just magically disappears, I've seen Quincy Miller stepped up and score primarily off of iso plays. You can't play iso if you don't have the necessary ball skills. Whenever Baylor gives Quincy the ball at the high/mid-post, he often takes off with one or two dribbles and lays the ball in smoothly with a spin move going to the left or inside-out dribble. When he's not creating from the mid-range area, he can drop step on his opponent from the right block. He's very crafty with his moves, and has an excellent touch for the window. He's already got better ball-handling skills, passing and court vision than Kevin Durant when he came outta Texas.

[DarkKnight]

Barnes could absolutely explode in the NBA. First, the refs are much looser with their whistles around the basket (Barnes draws a ton of contact but gets much fewer calls because of his size and body control). Second, he won't be playing on a team with almost no outside threats, where 4 guys are waiting for him on every drive. And third, his versatility (he's very polished in the post) will allow him to exploit matchups that he can't with Henson and Zeller taking all the post touches.

The system at UNC is not designed to pump up wing players. Only outside shooting is really rewarded for UNC wings, and when Barnes is shooting from outside people get upset that he's not driving. He really can't win with people.

[ansoncarter]

^good to hear. Just get the feeling he'll be our pick

looks suspiciously like a jack-of-all-trades type to me but whatever

is anybody in our draft range amazing at one thing? Like dribble drive? or drawing fouls? or hitting 3s? or ble bla blo?

[DarkKnight]

^good to hear. Just get the feeling he'll be our pick

looks suspiciously like a jack-of-all-trades type to me but whatever

is anybody in our draft range amazing at one thing? Like dribble drive? or drawing fouls? or hitting 3s? or ble bla blo?

Same knock on James Harden who's now one of the NBA's best/most efficient players. Nothing wrong with being good at everything. He's the anti-Demar who was really only good at jumping.

As for the glen rice talk earlier, rice is a funny guy - he played 4 years in college and in his first 2 season hit like 3 threes total. 3 for 12 his soph year.

[FluLikeSymptoms]

The difference is Barnes is the focal point of most defensive sets for his opponents whereas Doron Lamb is a guy who benefits from Davis, MKG, Miller, Williams and Teague.

I think that most college coaches' first priority vs. UNC is that front court, probably the best in the nation. They help Barnes a lot, he's got guys scrambling to recover when they play inside out. He should be able to take better advantage of that, IMO. To properly compare Lamb or Beal to Barnes you'd have to give them bigs like that and a similar offensive scheme.

[DarkKnight]

The difference is Barnes is the focal point of most defensive sets for his opponents whereas Doron Lamb is a guy who benefits from Davis, MKG, Miller, Williams and Teague.

I think that most college coaches' first priority vs. UNC is that front court, probably the best in the nation.

You're correct - and the way they scheme for it is to have the guys guarding Zeller, Henson, and Marshall pack the paint. Then Barnes also has his own defender. So the smartest, best shot for him is the catch-and-shoot, the jab-and-shoot, or the pull up jumper. But everyone is screaming about how he doesn't drive it to the rim enough, where there's a logjam of defenders. If he wanted to hoise up 8 three's a game he certainly could but the system is to get the ball inside. He's also only playing 27 minutes per game - that's just how Roy does things.

In the pros he'll have room to operate and if he ends up in a system that lets him Iso or run the PnR with shooters around him, he could be an absolute killer.

[Marlo Stanfield]

I think if we drafted Barnes it would spell the end for DeMar, which has me torn. I like them both a lot, but I don't see how we could start 2 wings with questionable handles.

[ansoncarter]

harden had elite handle, and maybe elite moves. Pretty valuable for a guard and makes everything else easier

just hope we draft someone who's elite at something

[SkywalkerAC]

I think if we drafted Barnes it would spell the end for DeMar, which has me torn. I like them both a lot, but I don't see how we could start 2 wings with questionable handles.

Demar needs to be paired with a shooter, which Barnes is. Say what you want about DD's handles but he's still a slasher that can get to the line. I think it's a great pairing.

[Marlo Stanfield]

Even a guy like VC who you didn't see put on dribbling exhibitions every game has ELITE handles.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYIK4UYaZ4U[/youtube]

Obviously, that's against kids, but I doubt DeMar or Harrison could do that in an empty gym. One has to go if they're on the same team.

[DD10]

Davis will go number 1 to the Bobcats.

If we get number 2 decision is Barnes or Drummond. Tough call but can't pass up on a legit back to the basket big man to pair with Val. And trade Bargs for a PG.

[CunningLinguist]

Following up on the Q Mill "take a risk with talent" point Rapsfan07 made - Interesting how everyone has agreed for years that we should be rolling the dice with superstar talents instead of making the safe pick, but as soon as PJIII gets mentioned it's like people had Ipecac in their coffee - and Drummond is working his way up to that level - and the definition of the safe pick HBo is the most popular player here just as Kemba Walker was last year

We can all talk the talk, but who's willing to walk the walk with the risky all-star talent strategy?

Join the PJIII bandwagon. It's a quiet, awkward place where I'm trying to keep conversation with Steely Reserve while he plays some Norwegian death music, I think he might knife me if more people don't join this party soon

I have no issues with PJ3 on the offensive end. It's his lack of interest in D that has me wondering if he'll ever be a leader on a good team (similar to Bosh in that regard)

[CunningLinguist]

I really want to be on the PJIII wagon, but I just don't get to see him display enough perimeter skills to stay on board. Every time I watch him, he posts up instead of trying to take his man off the dribble or move from the triple threat or something.

He doesn't need to show perimeter skills. He's a power forward.