mojay641 wrote:um, yes? why the hell are you including guys from different seasons/teams as part of melo's supporting cast.
curry has one of the best perimeter defenders in the league, one of the best centers/defenders in bogut, a all-star calibir PF, and one of the better shooting guards. thats easily better than anything melo has ever had around him for a single season.
That was Melo's actual roster in the 09-10 season, literally. As in, all in the same season. Nice try, thanks for playing.
is that seriously your argument? the warriors ORTG is 106.4. thats +.7 over league average. ranked 15th in the league. they're literally barely above-average. do you understand that buddy? please. explain how they're 'one of the best and most dangerous offenses in the league''
You do realize their issue is the severe dropoff between their starters and their bench right?
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_ ... -fullsquadLineup: Stephen Curry, Klay Thompson, Andre Iguodala, David Lee, Andrew Bogut
Minutes Played: 612
Offensive Rating: 113.5 points per 100 possessions
Defensive Rating: 97.0 points per 100 possessions
How it works offensively
This is the league’s most prolific five-man unit offensively (among the top 30 in minutes played), but the Warriors’ starting lineup doesn't seem like a natural offensive machine when examined on the surface.
Andre Iguodala hasn't historically stretched the floor, though he’s shooting the 3 at a 42.9 percent clip this season. David Lee will launch out to the arc, but is a 36.7 percent shooter from midrange. And Andrew Bogut has taken fewer than two dozen shots outside the restricted area this season. Meanwhile, both Iguodala and his counterpart on the wing, Klay Thompson, sport a player efficiency rating below the league average. Thompson shoots well from beyond the arc and is a decent finisher, but he misses a lot of midrange shots and isn't inclined to move the ball all that often.
Yet, here’s the Warriors’ primary unit racking up 113.5 points for every 100 possessions.
As I said before, the most prolific offensive lineup in the league drops historically bad levels w/o Curry. See below.
3.5 min per game. yeah, what a major balhog. 70 touches per game, which is well down the list. yawn.
Again, you do realize he's not a PG right. Virtually everybody else who touches the ball more is a primary initiator for their offense. So, he has the ball a ton, and only creates 6.5 assist chances per game, while shooting 3X that amount.
On the smaller scale, it's reasonable to argue that Anthony, who goes one-on-one with defenders more than any other NBA player, isn't the most willing passer. After all, last season—considered by many his best as a pro—he became just the third wing player in league history to finish 35% or more of his team's possessions over an entire season and finish with fewer than three assists per game...
...According to the player tracking technology at SportVU, Anthony makes 42.7 passes a game. That's comparable to other 20-point-per-game small forwards, such as Miami's LeBron James (49.4), Indiana's Paul George (46.7), Orlando's Arron Afflalo (44.2) and Oklahoma City's Kevin Durant (37.7). Of Anthony's 42.7 passes, about 6.5 a game would become assists if his teammates hit all the shots they created. In other words, about 15% of Anthony's passes lead to a scoring opportunity.
How does that rate rank among the aforementioned group? At the bottom, far behind those of Durant (32%) and James (24%), and still trailing Afflalo (17.8%) and George's (15.2%). Moreover, Anthony's 0.7 "hockey assists" per game—passes that lead to an assist for someone else—are on the low end for the group.
He rarely passes the ball, yet he has such a high ToP for his position. What do you think is happening in that time? Chess?
you have no idea what you're talking. 28.7 PPG on 56% TS/112 ORTG is nowhere near "mediocre''. TS% +2.5 over league-average. ORTG was a full 7 points above. how the hell is that mediocre? do you even understand what the word mediocre means?
56% TS/112 ORTG last year.
56% TS/113 ORTG this year.
very good efficiency. try again.
You do realize that an individual ORTG of 112 & 113 isn't anywhere near elite right? It is not even 'very good'. Just this year, his 113 rating has him at 83.
That's Melo's career best in that stat, and within just the last 5 years, those figures have been matched and exceeded by such unstoppable juggernauts as Gerald Wallace, Elton Brand, Beno Udrih, Matt Barnes, Marvin Williams, Chandler Parsons, Paul Millsap, Brandon Bass, Gallinari, Jared Dudley, Richard Jefferson and other such 'very good' offensive studs.
But, since we seem to be going in circles, there might be an even better way to illustrate the degree of separation between Curry's impact on his team vs Melo's Impact - Plus/Minus.
Melo On Floor = ORTG of 108.0
Melo Off Floor = ORTG of 100.5
+7.5
Essentially, NYK go from being the equivalent of the Minnesota T-Wolves on offense to being the equivalent of the Orlando Magic. Their EFG% drops from .497 to .486, they turn it over more and get less rebounds. It is good way to show how much their offense leans on Melo.
Now, Curry:
On Floor: 111.2
Off Floor: 90.7
+20.5
In other words, they go from the Miami Heat when Curry's in the game to the worst offense ever to play pro basketball by a good margin. For their specifics, GSW's EFG% craters from .540 to .444. Their TOV% rate skyrockets from 15.9 to 19.1. So, they cough up the ball at a higher % than any team ever, while their EFG% is the equal to that of the Pre-LBJ Cavs tank squad in 02-03.
The interesting thing is that Curry had the same level of impact for them during the PS last year, with a On/Off ORTG of +21.6, much higher than his RS mark of +8.1. So, he took off last year during the PS and has continued that impact moving into this season. Melo had a On/Off ORTG of +5.7, but his PS ORTG was -5.3.
hes averaging 8.9 rpg and provides incredible offensive impact as a 4 is what you mean, try again
now lets describe what he really is:
incredible scorer with a incredible skill-set, who scores on very good efficiency and does a incredible job of taking care of the ball.
excellent 3-pt shooter. excellent free throw shooter. one of the best post-up and mid-range games in the league.
commands as much defensive attention as anybody in the league and uses solid passing/play-making to consistently create open looks for others.
terrific rebounder.
decent defender
Hyperbole?
Volume scorer on middling efficiency who is overly reliant on midrange pull-ups & isolations while often ball-stopping. He shoots more pull-up jump-shots than either Durant or Lillard despite his efg% being 10 points worse. Once again, as a playmaker, he averages 6.5 assist opportunities per game. But his teammates shoot 47% when he actually does pass the ball, much better than their usual 43%. He is as likely to shoot a pull-up jumper as he is to create an scoring chance for a teammate & he has more attempts in the mid-range than he does rim attempts & 3FGA combined, so it is not like he is getting himself a ton of chances in the high efficiency areas.
He's a lot better as a catch&shoot player, but his iso tendencies stagnate the consistent ball movement needed to take advantage of that. The team is a lot better when he's moving the ball and trusting he'll get it back. But, he
doesn't do it with any regularity.
Regarding his rebounding, his current averages of 8.9 rebounds with a DRB% of 20(a career high) is the equal of Chris Bosh's 1st year in MIA, so that's okay, I guess. He's a good rebounding SF but a subpar rebounding 4; that's not even mentioning the fact that this career high is the result of spending most of the season next to the worst rebounding 7 ft player ever in Bargs and another poor rebounder in Stat. Not to mention that 70% of his rebounds are uncontested anyway.
His defense should go without saying, but he is a decent man defender when motivated but a subpar team & help defender, often prone to poor awareness and bad mistakes (failing to fight over screens, calling for unneccessary switches, losing track of his man when off ball etc). He allows opponents to shoot 51% at the rim.
2013 season;
29/7/3/25 PER/56% TS/9.3% turnover rate/112 ORTG
Scoring title
#3 in MVP voting
Won 55 games with a bunch of role-players
Anchored the #3 offense in the league
BEAST.
High volume scoring year for a middling-to-fair efficiency in a major media capital results in a distant 3rd place finish in the MVP vote. Team overly reliant on record 3-pt volume from a bunch of guys having career years from beyond.
BTW, that team's offensive ORTG with Melo off-court was roughly equal to this year's team ORTG WITH him on court.
In conclusion,
while Melo, at his peak, is good enough to lift an otherwise solid offense to elite levels, Curry has shown that he's capable of elevating an otherwise bad offense to elite levels. Curry's ORTG on/off is comparable to 05 MVP Nash or 08-10 LeBron.
And since both are defensive liabilities, Curry's greater impact makes him the better centerpiece, all things being equal.
