Replace Lebron with Peak Kawhi on the 2009 & 2010 Cavs

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Cool. LeBron led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in the 2016 finals. Kawhi beat a decimated Warriors team. Congrats. Stop overrating the crap out of him and people will stop hating on him.

LeBron had Draymond out a game, Kawhi had Klay out a game and 3 quarters. Draymond is more valuable than Klay. Kawhi won in 6, LeBron it took 7. Kawhi was only 27 years old and already matched LeBron's career defining accomplishment in beating Warriors.

What about that Kevin Durant guy?

LeBron never beat Durant! Last time I checked Kawhi was up 20 points on Durant warriors in 2017 and a fluke injury away from doing what LeBron couldn't do in 2 years and that's win vs Durant at warriors arena.

[70sFan]

BTW, if Kawhi always finds a way to win, then why did he lost in 2016? He was already in his prime and had better team than OKC or Cavs.

[70sFan]

LeBron had Draymond out a game, Kawhi had Klay out a game and 3 quarters. Draymond is more valuable than Klay. Kawhi won in 6, LeBron it took 7. Kawhi was only 27 years old and already matched LeBron's career defining accomplishment in beating Warriors.

What about that Kevin Durant guy?

LeBron never beat Durant! Last time I checked Kawhi was up 20 points on Durant warriors in 2017 and a fluke injury away from doing what LeBron couldn't do in 2 years and that's win vs Durant at warriors arena.

LeBron "beat" Durant in 2012. If only stars matters, then who cares that both played in different teams? Didn't you say that's how sport works?

[70sFan]

Wilt averaged 50 ppg and still lost in the playoffs. an individual's ppg average doesn't equate to wins. The question is would Leonard win not whether he would average 40ppg or not. you are the one changing the question.

Jordan averaged 50 ppg in the playoffs one season and still lost.

Kawhi is just a winner and finds ways to win.

I didn't ask you about Jordan or Wilt.

The topic of the thread is how the 2009 & 2010 Cavs would fair if you swapped LeBron for "peak" Kawhi. Your argument is, "Kawhi would find a way" while providing zero evidence of such a claim. It's pure conjecture. If Kawhi, "always finds ways to win" despite all odds then what's the excuse for series he's lost? The notion he, himself, can overcome entire teams is nonsense and defies reality. He would lose against the Magic in 2009 AND the Celtics in 2010.

You are saying that lebron is the greatest of best winner ever and that no one could've even made the Finals with SHAQ, Ben Wallace, Jaminson, Danny Green, Joe Smith and Wally.....

Kawhi would sweep the playoffs with that. EASILY!. The evidence is look at the drop the Spurs have had since he left. Kawhi is the winningest player of all time. He sports a 80% win percentage in RS or PO.

Kawhi was destroying teams like the Thunder and Warriors

Kawhi never "destroyed" Thunder.

[infinite11285]

If Kawhi wins a Championship in LA then he is in serious talks as top 3 all time.

Not even close, he wouldn't touch Russell or Kareem even with the best season of his career.

I say this as someone who hopes Clippers will at least get to the finals.

He's better than Kareem and Russell. There were 2 teams in the 60's. One was stacked and the other slightly less stacked.
in the 70's the NBA was not as good as now.

also it's not about invididual seasons or games. It's about the Complete Package. The totality of their careers.

If you believe Kawhi Leonard is better than Kareem or Russell, it only substantiates the point that no one should bother furthering any basketball-related discussion with you. You're posting with extreme subjective bias; honestly, it's flatout trolling.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Not even close, he wouldn't touch Russell or Kareem even with the best season of his career.

I say this as someone who hopes Clippers will at least get to the finals.

He's better than Kareem and Russell. There were 2 teams in the 60's. One was stacked and the other slightly less stacked.
in the 70's the NBA was not as good as now.

also it's not about invididual seasons or games. It's about the Complete Package. The totality of their careers.

Nothing but opinions and lies. NBA was never smaller than 8 teams and Russell won in a league with 14 teams.


Kareem was the best player in the world for 12 seasons, Kawhi at best has one season like that so far. So if you mean totality of their careers, then the gap is even larger and one ring won't change that.

Kawhi was the best in the playoffs in 2017 anad 2019.

2017 - give you an example, Kawhi was Lebron in 2009 and Durant was Kobe. Even though Kawhi\Lebron didn't play as much games, they were still better than Kobe and Durant.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

What about that Kevin Durant guy?

LeBron never beat Durant! Last time I checked Kawhi was up 20 points on Durant warriors in 2017 and a fluke injury away from doing what LeBron couldn't do in 2 years and that's win vs Durant at warriors arena.

LeBron "beat" Durant in 2012. If only stars matters, then who cares that both played in different teams? Didn't you say that's how sport works?

Because the 2nd star in Curry is way better than the 2nd star in Westbrook? You're making this too easy

[70sFan]

He's better than Kareem and Russell. There were 2 teams in the 60's. One was stacked and the other slightly less stacked.
in the 70's the NBA was not as good as now.

also it's not about invididual seasons or games. It's about the Complete Package. The totality of their careers.

Nothing but opinions and lies. NBA was never smaller than 8 teams and Russell won in a league with 14 teams.


Kareem was the best player in the world for 12 seasons, Kawhi at best has one season like that so far. So if you mean totality of their careers, then the gap is even larger and one ring won't change that.

Kawhi was the best in the playoffs in 2017 anad 2019.

2017 - give you an example, Kawhi was Lebron in 2009 and Durant was Kobe. Even though Kawhi\Lebron didn't play as much games, they were still better than Kobe and Durant.

Great, Kareem was the best player in postseason in 1971, 1974, 1977, 1979 and 1980. Along with 1970 if you count 2017 (which is debatable at best). That gives him 6 postseaons better than Kawhi's second best. I won't even talk about James in 2017, who was at least as good as Kawhi in playoffs.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

BTW, if Kawhi always finds a way to win, then why did he lost in 2016? He was already in his prime and had better team than OKC or Cavs.

That was when Lamarcus didn't know his role and thought he was the 1st option instead, so Spurs lost. When Kawhi is the teams leading scorer, he has never lost a series besides the fluke injury in 2017. 6-0 in series for Kawhi as the clear cut first option on offense and was about to win on Warriors homecourt vs possibly the greatest team of all time.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Nothing but opinions and lies. NBA was never smaller than 8 teams and Russell won in a league with 14 teams.


Kareem was the best player in the world for 12 seasons, Kawhi at best has one season like that so far. So if you mean totality of their careers, then the gap is even larger and one ring won't change that.

Kawhi was the best in the playoffs in 2017 anad 2019.

2017 - give you an example, Kawhi was Lebron in 2009 and Durant was Kobe. Even though Kawhi\Lebron didn't play as much games, they were still better than Kobe and Durant.

Great, Kareem was the best player in postseason in 1971, 1974, 1977, 1979 and 1980. Along with 1970 if you count 2017 (which is debatable at best). That gives him 6 postseaons better than Kawhi's second best. I won't even talk about James in 2017, who was at least as good as Kawhi in playoffs.

Leonard has two years that were comparable to Kareem post merger and we have only seen him play until 27 years old at this point.

[mcraft]

LeBron had Draymond out a game, Kawhi had Klay out a game and 3 quarters. Draymond is more valuable than Klay. Kawhi won in 6, LeBron it took 7. Kawhi was only 27 years old and already matched LeBron's career defining accomplishment in beating Warriors.

What about that Kevin Durant guy?

LeBron never beat Durant! Last time I checked Kawhi was up 20 points on Durant warriors in 2017 and a fluke injury away from doing what LeBron couldn't do in 2 years and that's win vs Durant at warriors arena.

The post you quoted mentioned the Warrior's being decimated. You mentioned Draymond being out a game in 2016 and Klay missing a game and a half. You didn't mention KD being out. The Warriors most certainly weren't at full strength against the Raptors. Taking nothing away from Toronto, they beat who was in front of them, but it definitely wasn't the 2017 and 2018 finals Warriors

[HBK_Kliq_33]

The Raptors are such a perfect squad for 09 James. Gasol/Siakam/Green/Lowry all great defenders all competent or better three point shooters. Then you've got FVV and Powell as additional spacing options. They would have cruised through these playoffs.

I'm not sure that James ever played with a squad that fit him as well as that squad would have. 2016 Cavs is probably closest, but I'd rather have Gasol than Love and Siakam than Thompson. Smith and Green is about the same. Lowry is a downgrade offensively but an upgrade defensively over Irving. FVV is better than Dellavadova. Raptors would give LeBron better spacing and better defense than Cavs did.

The Raptors support is much better both in terms of talent and fit than the 09 Cavs were and James took that team to 66 wins and barely lost to the conference champs primarily because they couldn't defend the interior. Gasol fixes that hole. 09 LeBron with less spacing than the Raptors would give him scored at will against the league's best defense.

Siakam was bad 3 point shooter, he shot 28% and missed 11 straight in the finals.
Gasol was too passive from three and usually passed up open looks
Green was less than 33% from three

I don't see them giving Lebron better spacing at all.

[liamliam1234]

Bad Warriors rebuttal, because he is just going to point out Lebron only won a single game against them.

If you wanted a better rebuttal, you could go through the obvious difference between the 2016 and 2019 Finals Warriors. But he obviously does not care, is incapable of engaging in the slightest good faith argument, and is not worth wasting additional time.

But then again, a new alt seems to have been created to join the fray, so maybe part of this is getting to him after all.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

What about that Kevin Durant guy?

LeBron never beat Durant! Last time I checked Kawhi was up 20 points on Durant warriors in 2017 and a fluke injury away from doing what LeBron couldn't do in 2 years and that's win vs Durant at warriors arena.

The post you quoted mentioned the Warrior's being decimated. You mentioned Draymond being out a game in 2016 and Klay missing a game and a half. You didn't mention KD being out. The Warriors most certainly weren't at full strength against the Raptors. Taking nothing away from Toronto, they beat who was in front of them, but it definitely wasn't the 2017 and 2018 finals Warriors

Like I said, Kawhi in 2019 finals matched Lebron's 2016 finals. Both never beat Durant\Curry? Kawhi actually was an injury away from beating Durant\Curry on their homecourt which is something Lebron failed to do in 2017 or 2018.

[HBK_Kliq_33]

Bad Warriors rebuttal, because he is just going to point out Lebron only won a single game against them.

If you wanted a better rebuttal, you could go through the obvious difference between the 2016 and 2019 Finals Warriors. But he obviously does not care, is incapable of engaging in the slightest good faith argument, and is not worth wasting additional time.

But then again, a new alt seems to have been created to join the fray, so maybe part of this is getting to him.

That bringyourgame guy is not me, I'm not a blazers fan and have no point in creating a different account. I told you my opinions and it is what it is.

[Bringyourgame]

What about that Kevin Durant guy?

LeBron never beat Durant! Last time I checked Kawhi was up 20 points on Durant warriors in 2017 and a fluke injury away from doing what LeBron couldn't do in 2 years and that's win vs Durant at warriors arena.

The post you quoted mentioned the Warrior's being decimated. You mentioned Draymond being out a game in 2016 and Klay missing a game and a half. You didn't mention KD being out. The Warriors most certainly weren't at full strength against the Raptors. Taking nothing away from Toronto, they beat who was in front of them, but it definitely wasn't the 2017 and 2018 finals Warriors

in the 2016 Finals James didn't play a Durant Warriors.

Durant was there for a half and also the Raptors had to game plan for him being their anyway for the first 4 games

Curry, Thompson and Green are all in their primes. This is a team that has made 5 straight finals and really won 4 in a row. The suspension by Green was cheating and collusion by James and adam silver. This affected the Warriors ability to game plan. Also Iggy was more healthy in 19 than in 16.

Is Marc Gasol a Hall of Famer, Maybe but he's not in his prime anymore. Kawhi still beat 4 Hall of Famers and 3 were in their primes.

[70sFan]

Kawhi was the best in the playoffs in 2017 anad 2019.

2017 - give you an example, Kawhi was Lebron in 2009 and Durant was Kobe. Even though Kawhi\Lebron didn't play as much games, they were still better than Kobe and Durant.

Great, Kareem was the best player in postseason in 1971, 1974, 1977, 1979 and 1980. Along with 1970 if you count 2017 (which is debatable at best). That gives him 6 postseaons better than Kawhi's second best. I won't even talk about James in 2017, who was at least as good as Kawhi in playoffs.

Leonard has two years that were comparable to Kareem post merger and we have only seen him play until 27 years old at this point.

Until 27 years old, Kareem already had 3 postseasons better than Kawhi's 2017.

Kareem also had two clearly better postseasons post-merger than Kawhi's best. He was far better defender, better scorer, better passer, better rebounder. Kawhi has no case over 1977 and 1980 Kareem.

[Joey Wheeler]

This thread is a bit of a trainwreck, but still...

Kawhi is the best perimeter defender of all-time imo, the Cavs would definitely improve on that end. It's no coincidence every team Kawhi has ever been on has been elite defensively. Lebron was a very good defender in 2009, but not GOAT level like Kawhi.

Offensively though, Lebron is significantly ahead. Kawhi's scoring ability is comparable and he's a better shooter, but he cannot create team offense at an elite level and there's no one else on those Cavs rosters who can be the team's primary playmaker.

All in all, Cavs would be much worse, win less games, get a lower seed, potentially crash out earlier in the playoffs too. They'd be a better defense, but really struggle on offense.

[Joey Wheeler]

The Raptors are such a perfect squad for 09 James. Gasol/Siakam/Green/Lowry all great defenders all competent or better three point shooters. Then you've got FVV and Powell as additional spacing options. They would have cruised through these playoffs.

I'm not sure that James ever played with a squad that fit him as well as that squad would have. 2016 Cavs is probably closest, but I'd rather have Gasol than Love and Siakam than Thompson. Smith and Green is about the same. Lowry is a downgrade offensively but an upgrade defensively over Irving. FVV is better than Dellavadova. Raptors would give LeBron better spacing and better defense than Cavs did.

The Raptors support is much better both in terms of talent and fit than the 09 Cavs were and James took that team to 66 wins and barely lost to the conference champs primarily because they couldn't defend the interior. Gasol fixes that hole. 09 LeBron with less spacing than the Raptors would give him scored at will against the league's best defense.

Completely disagree with this. While Kawhi on the Cavs makes them much worse, Lebron on the 2019 Raptors probably loses in the second round to the Sixers.

Lebron's one flaw is that his talent is so complete and transcedent from a young age that all his teams end up being all about him doing everything, he's the primary playmaker and scorer, he's the offense. The problem with this is you'll not get the best out of playmakers when pairing them with Lebron, guys like Lowry or even FVV will be somewhat marginalized, Siakam probably doesn't even have his big breakthrough so quickly because it's all about Lebron.

Kawhi is different in the sense that he's more of a super role player on offense, he's dominant scoring the ball but he doesn't really monopolize the offense and mixes perfectly with someone like Lowry who's at his best as the primary ballhandler/playmaker and other guys who can create. He can get the bulk of his 30 points spotting up, ISOing off broken plays. He'll struggle in a team that needs a guy to do it all offensively (like the 2009 and 2010 Cavs), but he mixes up perfectly with other playmakers as he won't 'get in their lane'.

The problem with Lebron on the Raptors roster is the offense would end up revolving around him completely. It's the curse of being too talented perhaps; Lebron is so good at every facet of the game that you can't really justify enabling Lowry, Siakam, Gasol, etc... strengths on your offense instead of letting Lebron dominate even if it'd be better for the team (not because those players are better at their strong points than Lebron, but because they're more limited and can only excel in those particular roles, unlike Lebron).

That's why I like his fit with AD on the Lakers. AD is potentially the best off ball player of all-time, certainly up there anyway, so he can play to his full potential even with Lebron dominating the offense.

[70sFan]

70's stats and todays stats can't be judged the same. It was a different era. Kareem was like 7'3 and played in a bad era overall. Kawhi in about 6 years will be ranked very high.

Yeah, Kareem was 7'3 and he also happened to be the best 7'3 player in NBA history. That's one of the many advantages he had over Kawhi.

Era is bad as long as you want to call it like that. Besides, Kareem didn't play in "era" he was superstar for basically 17 seasons from 1969 to 1986. Do you want to tell me that whole 1970s and 1980s are weak?