You don't like the Vuc? What were the alternatives?

[waffle]

I love vuc. I love the trade. So I don't really belong here...I guess I am just saying "hi"

[CobyWhite0]

I love vuc. I love the trade. So I don't really belong here...I guess I am just saying "hi"

Hopefully, we can keep filling our roster with #4 picks!! If we could have picked 4th each of the last 12 seasons, we'd be blessed with this superstar-laden roster:

Mr. Patrick Williams
De'Andre Hunter
Jaren Jackson Jr
Josh Jackson
Dragan Bender
Kristaps Porzingis
Aaron Gordon
Cody Zeller
Dion Waiters
Tristan Thompson
Wesley Johnson
Tyreke Evans

Forget Vuc, let's super-duper tank our way to the absolute worst record in the NBA for each of the next 3 years, so we'll have a 50/50 chance of landing the #5 overall pick each year.

Hell, if we do it for seven years, the odds say we'll get the #1 overall pick once. Of course, that #1 pick could be Anthony Bennett or Andrew Wiggins or Andrea Bargnani, but odds!! Math!!

[dice]

I love vuc. I love the trade. So I don't really belong here...I guess I am just saying "hi"

Hopefully, we can keep filling our roster with #4 picks!! If we could have picked 4th each of the last 12 seasons, we'd be blessed with this superstar-laden roster:

Mr. Patrick Williams
De'Andre Hunter
Jaren Jackson Jr
Josh Jackson
Dragan Bender
Kristaps Porzingis
Aaron Gordon
Cody Zeller
Dion Waiters
Tristan Thompson
Wesley Johnson
Tyreke Evans

good thing you didn't choose the previous 12 years, or you'd have ended up with:

conley
westbrook
cp3
bosh
odom
jamison

Forget Vuc, let's super-duper tank our way to the absolute worst record in the NBA for each of the next 3 years, so we'll have a 50/50 chance of landing the #5 overall pick each year.

Hell, if we do it for seven years, the odds say we'll get the #1 overall pick once. Of course, that #1 pick could be Anthony Bennett or Andrew Wiggins or Andrea Bargnani, but odds!! Math!!

pretty ironic take on draft picks vs. established talent given that your username is a middling #7 pick

[CobyWhite0]

I love vuc. I love the trade. So I don't really belong here...I guess I am just saying "hi"

Hopefully, we can keep filling our roster with #4 picks!! If we could have picked 4th each of the last 12 seasons, we'd be blessed with this superstar-laden roster:

Mr. Patrick Williams
De'Andre Hunter
Jaren Jackson Jr
Josh Jackson
Dragan Bender
Kristaps Porzingis
Aaron Gordon
Cody Zeller
Dion Waiters
Tristan Thompson
Wesley Johnson
Tyreke Evans

good thing you didn't choose the previous 12 years, or you'd have ended up with:

conley
westbrook
cp3
bosh
odom
jamison

Well, that's 6 of 12 years, nice list!! Not.

Of course, you quite disingenuously left out:

Tyrus Thomas
Shaun Livingston
Drew Gooden
Eddy Curry
Marcus Fizer
Antonio Daniels

Conley has made ONE All-Star Game and ONE 2nd-Team All-Defense in his 14 seasons.

Russ is Russ, he did make one Finals when he had Durant and Harden as teammates.

CP3 is a real nice player... who has been past the 2nd round ONCE in his 13 seasons. Wow.

Bosh is Zach and Vuc, a 1st-round All-Star on his own, able to win as a 3rd option.

Lamar Odom smoked an impressive amount of crack during his career, but he never made even ONE All-Star Game.

Jamison made a grand total of 2 All-Star teams, he got out of the 1st round ONCE in his career.

Thank you very much for helping to make my point.

Forget Vuc, let's super-duper tank our way to the absolute worst record in the NBA for each of the next 3 years, so we'll have a 50/50 chance of landing the #5 overall pick each year.

Hell, if we do it for seven years, the odds say we'll get the #1 overall pick once. Of course, that #1 pick could be Anthony Bennett or Andrew Wiggins or Andrea Bargnani, but odds!! Math!!

pretty ironic take on draft picks vs. established talent given that your username is a middling #7 pick

LMAO!! I'm not sure what a person's username has to do with anything, but I've consistently stated all the way through today that he's a sixth man right now because of his poor defense. Maybe I should change my username to MichaelJordan23?

[dougthonus]

Very true, but you can say that for most recent NBA Champions until they made a move or two that totally changed things.

I'm not talking about winning a championship. I'm talking about getting to consistently good (45-55 win range). These moves do not put us on a path to be consistently good.

As for your championships in summary:
Lakers, Heat, Cavs - LeBron's whim
Raptors, Warriors, Mavs, Spurs - all consistently good teams like the one I'm saying we have no hope of getting to with our current move set.

Are we a superstar away from serious contending? Hell yes, but so were the last 10 or so Champs.

We're further away than the Raptors, Warriors, Mavs, and Spurs were based on record we aren't even close. If we lure whomever you feel is the next LeBron here or some other top 1 type talent, then sure, but that statement can literally make you a contender no matter where you are, so isn't particularly relevant.

[dice]

Hopefully, we can keep filling our roster with #4 picks!! If we could have picked 4th each of the last 12 seasons, we'd be blessed with this superstar-laden roster:

Mr. Patrick Williams
De'Andre Hunter
Jaren Jackson Jr
Josh Jackson
Dragan Bender
Kristaps Porzingis
Aaron Gordon
Cody Zeller
Dion Waiters
Tristan Thompson
Wesley Johnson
Tyreke Evans

good thing you didn't choose the previous 12 years, or you'd have ended up with:

conley
westbrook
cp3
bosh
odom
jamison

Well, that's 6 of 12 years, nice list!! Not.

Of course, you quite disingenuously left out:

Tyrus Thomas
Shaun Livingston
Drew Gooden
Eddy Curry
Marcus Fizer
Antonio Daniels

i gave you the SIX all-stars in 12 years. the rest don't matter. understand now? all players that could be major contributors to championship teams

what's disingenuous is cherry picking a draft slot that has grossly underperformed in recent years

CP3 is a real nice player... who has been past the 2nd round ONCE in his 13 seasons. Wow.

you have zero credibility as a basketball mind. chris paul tremendously improves teams. even well into his 30s. not many players you can say that about. and it's not like his performance suffers in the playoffs

[waffle]

I think people underestimate Zach and Vuch. They are both tier 1 talents. The trick is surrounding them with complimentary players and coming up with an offensive scheme that plays to their strengths. We have had a few games since Vuch came here where we actually looked like we were playing 21st century basketball....been a while since we have seen that in Chicago

[CobyWhite0]

I think people underestimate Zach and Vuch. They are both tier 1 talents. The trick is surrounding them with complimentary players and coming up with an offensive scheme that plays to their strengths. We have had a few games since Vuch came here where we actually looked like we were playing 21st century basketball....been a while since we have seen that in Chicago

Our post-trade starting lineup of Coby, Zach, Mr. Patrick Williams, Theis and Vuc only got to play 48 minutes together - and they had a net rating of +3.1, which would be the 8th-best in the league this season. And the 7 teams with a better net rating are all title contenders:

Jazz
Clippers
Bucks
Suns
Sixers
Nuggets
Nets

Of course 48 minutes is a pretty small sample size, but it's what we have to go on right now. Barring a trade or two or some sort of big move in free agency, personally I'd like to see what that team can do given a full training camp and a full preseason together. At the very least, we'll be able to add a veteran or two this summer so that guys like Val and Arch and Kornet never, ever, ever see the floor outside of garbage time.

[dice]

I think people underestimate Zach and Vuch. They are both tier 1 talents.

"we're gonna need a bigger tier"

talent isn't particularly important unless you're talking about a prospect. production is

[dice]

I think people underestimate Zach and Vuch. They are both tier 1 talents. The trick is surrounding them with complimentary players and coming up with an offensive scheme that plays to their strengths. We have had a few games since Vuch came here where we actually looked like we were playing 21st century basketball....been a while since we have seen that in Chicago

Our post-trade starting lineup of Coby, Zach, Mr. Patrick Williams, Theis and Vuc only got to play 48 minutes together - and they had a net rating of +3.1, which would be the 8th-best in the league this season. And the 7 teams with a better net rating are all title contenders:

Jazz
Clippers
Bucks
Suns
Sixers
Nuggets
Nets

our pre-trade lineup of carter/lavine/temple/white/young had a net rating of +30.7, which would make us far and away the best team in nba history

apparently trading WCJ was the screw-up of the century!

[CobyWhite0]

I think people underestimate Zach and Vuch. They are both tier 1 talents.

"we're gonna need a bigger tier"

talent isn't particularly important unless you're talking about a prospect. production is

Agreed 100%

Points Per Game:
Zach 7th
Vuc 21st

Rebounds Per Game:
Vuc 5th

3pt Field Goal Percentage:
Zach 20th
Vuc 50th (2nd to Portis among Centers)

True Shooting Percentage:
Zach 19th

Player Efficiency Rating:
Vuc 19th
Zach 25th

Defensive Win Shares:
Vuc 17th

Box Plus/Minus:
Vuc 13th
Zach t-21st

Offensive Box Plus/Minus:
Vuc 15th
Zach 16th

Value Over Replacement Player:
Vuc 6th
Zach 22nd

Total Rebound Percentage:
Vuc 9th

Defensive Rebound Percentage:
Vuc 5th

Triple Doubles:
Vuc t-12th

[dice]

I think people underestimate Zach and Vuch. They are both tier 1 talents.

"we're gonna need a bigger tier"

talent isn't particularly important unless you're talking about a prospect. production is

Agreed 100%

Points Per Game:
Zach 7th
Vuc 21st

Rebounds Per Game:
Vuc 5th

3pt Field Goal Percentage:
Zach 20th
Vuc 50th (2nd to Portis among Centers)

True Shooting Percentage:
Zach 19th

Player Efficiency Rating:
Vuc 19th
Zach 25th

Defensive Win Shares:
Vuc 17th

Box Plus/Minus:
Vuc 13th
Zach t-21st

Offensive Box Plus/Minus:
Vuc 15th
Zach 16th

Value Over Replacement Player:
Vuc 6th
Zach 22nd

Total Rebound Percentage:
Vuc 9th

Defensive Rebound Percentage:
Vuc 5th

Triple Doubles:
Vuc t-12th

vucevic, like lavine, has always been worse than his stat line would suggest

composite player impact +/- over the last 3 seasons (adjusts for teammate quality):

+2.82 vucevic
+0.42 lavine

vuc in lineup: 95-117 (.448)
out of lineup: 6-9 (.400)

bulls with lavine: 62-119 (.343), 108.2 points for, 112.3 against (-4.1)
bulls w/o lavine: 12-25 (.324), 102.6 points for, 109.1 against (-6.5) - a modest dropoff given who his minutes are being replaced by

PER is a straight garbage stat. win shares is bad, BPM/VORP better but still not good

[CobyWhite0]

So you didn't really mean that "production is" what matters when it comes to vets, because they obviously both "produced".

You meant "they suck in whatever statistical model I can find that somehow shows they suck, because almost all the other advanced stats are garbage". Gotcha.

[TheJordanRule]

Vooch would get out worked by CARLOS BOOZER down there in the post.
that's kinda SAD


Remember when we traded Elton Brand who was only 21 and averaging 20/10 because he wasn't dominant enough to lead us to the playoffs....

Yeah, and tbh, that was a toxic mentality. We don't need to go back to the unrealistic pipedreams, "flexibility" and trading away productive players so that we can draft guys who don't move the needle philosophy of the past. We spent the last 22+ years in FAILURE doing that, proving that it was a trash mindset. The new way of building up a team is pairing stars, and depending on the appeal of those stars to score in free agency. What we've done is increased the likelihood of scoring in free agency. Even if we don't cash in on a Kawhi or DeRozan, we're a lock for a second tier player at a decent price. I'd be happy with a Devonte Graham and Talent Horton Tucker / Josh Richardson type offseason, but I think we're gonna do better than that.

[beeshma]

Nice to trade away WCJ.

WCJ seems to have fallen behind Bamba in orlando's center rotation.

[jordanwilliams6]

Nice to trade away WCJ.

WCJ seems to have fallen behind Bamba in orlando's center rotation.

After an early hot start, WCJ has reverted back to being very bad. Last 10 games he's averaging 7/7/2 on 34%/11%/73% shooting splits.

I have no issues trading him away. The picks could turn out good but I'm confident knowing we haven't traded away an up and coming great centre.

[kulaz3000]

Nice to trade away WCJ.

WCJ seems to have fallen behind Bamba in orlando's center rotation.

After an early hot start, WCJ has reverted back to being very bad. Last 10 games he's averaging 7/7/2 on 34%/11%/73% shooting splits.

I have no issues trading him away. The picks could turn out good but I'm confident knowing we haven't traded away an up and coming great centre.

Is this honestly a surprise though? When he gets into a funk, he gets into a funk for weeks on end. It's unfortunate that we had a few of those players on our roster, and still do, in Lauri, White etc. Players who are so up and down just can't be in the starting line up if you're wanting to be a serious winning team in this league. Consistency is the difference between a starter and a bench player in this league.

[kulaz3000]

I'm personally still very much behind this trade, and with Billy having a year under his belt, and some consistency with our roster, which I believe some of the core players will remain, I think that will help bring some continuity with this roster and we will be a playoff team next season. I'd be absolutely shocked if we don't become a playoff team, and once we get a taste of the playoffs, you open up the possibility of some veteran free agents jumping on board also, where we can hopefully fill out the roster with more winning players.

We really need Patrick to make a bit of a jump next season though. I don't expect him to be an All-Star, but he needs to have had made progress, and I'd like to see him be more aggressive especially on the offensive end, which he has alluded to needing to do already.