2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.2)

[rzzzzz]

I don’t know about Booker, but if the Sixers had merely kept Bridges, the hometown guy (his mom worked for the organization ffs) instead of Brett trading him for the can’t miss Zhaire Smith, we would have had all the defense and spacing that Embiid deserves.

[Sharkboy242]

We're looking at the net difference in who the Nuggets are without Jokic and who the Suns are without booker. If the net difference is greater in the case of Jokic, then he simply has more impact. I don't get why this is so hard for you to grasp.

Obviously MVP is fairly undefined and on-court impact does not necessarily equal value (although I'd agree it should be a large part of it) because different people define value differently. Also, not all impact is the same. It's generally harder to improve good teams by the same margin as bad teams, and turning good teams into great ones is also more valuable than turning bad teams into average ones because the ultimate goal of the sport is to win titles.

That being said, I completely agree that there is zero case for Booker. Not only is he a clearly worse player than the top candidates, he also adds less value to his team. Now, it is completely fine to factor in wins to some degree. But to use this as the main point means you not only disregard the differences in ‘goodness’ between the players and how important they are to their teams, but also to completely neglect context in favor of an overwhelming winning bias (and even then, you could just as easily take CP3 from that Suns team, which just further illustrates the point).

So yes, Booker deserves more credit than he has in the past for being a main contributor to the best team in the league. But no, that does not mean he's a legitimate MVP candidate. Inclusion in one of the All-NBA teams? Now that's more realistic and a conversation worth having, albeit in a different thread I suppose.

I agree with your notions on value being evaluated differently and I agree about it being harder to improve an already great team. I made this concession earlier by saying:

People who are arguing for Suns players should understand that if Embiid/Jokic/Giannis were coasting on a 1st seed team, they probably wouldn't be putting up MVP numbers either. The big numbers come from having to fill in voids within their teams.

[Infinite Llamas]

Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Curry, Paul.

I’m fairly confident one of these five will win. Booker will not get recognized with an MVP while Paul has never gotten one. No one takes him seriously as a candidate. It’s like when people would clamor for Mitchell when everyone knew Gobert was the actual MVP of his team. Volume scoring be damned.

[Antinomy]

Don’t look now but the Bucks are 0.5 games back of the #1 seed and Giannis is 0.2ppg from leading the league in scoring while breaking his own PER record at 32.1.

He’s also still a leading candidate for DPOY while being either #1 or #2 in nearly every advanced stat category.

It’s looking like he’s gonna run away with it.

[Infinite Llamas]

Don’t look now but the Bucks are 0.5 games back of the #1 seed and Giannis is 0.2ppg from leading the league in scoring while breaking his own PER record at 32.1.

He’s also still a leading candidate for DPOY while being either #1 or #2 in nearly every advanced stat category.

It’s looking like he’s gonna run away with it.

Looks can be deceiving though.

Unfortunately for Giannis, he doesn’t get to play the Lakers every night.

And unless the Bucks get some separation, those top teams are so clustered up that #1 or #4 really won’t matter much. Especially when there are going to be three west teams better than the top seed in the east.

[Dutchball97]

Don’t look now but the Bucks are 0.5 games back of the #1 seed and Giannis is 0.2ppg from leading the league in scoring while breaking his own PER record at 32.1.

He’s also still a leading candidate for DPOY while being either #1 or #2 in nearly every advanced stat category.

It’s looking like he’s gonna run away with it.

Giannis is currently 2nd in PER, 2nd in WS/48, 2nd in BPM, 2nd in EPM, 3rd in RAPTOR and 3rd in LEBRON. This is extremely impressive but what advanced stat is he #1 in?

[DutchManDanFan]

PER should not be used here. In the PER top 50 there are 24 centers. Look at the names.

[Perseus1966]

Don’t look now but the Bucks are 0.5 games back of the #1 seed and Giannis is 0.2ppg from leading the league in scoring while breaking his own PER record at 32.1.

He’s also still a leading candidate for DPOY while being either #1 or #2 in nearly every advanced stat category.

It’s looking like he’s gonna run away with it.

Giannis is currently 2nd in PER, 2nd in WS/48, 2nd in BPM, 2nd in EPM, 3rd in RAPTOR and 3rd in LEBRON. This is extremely impressive but what advanced stat is he #1 in?

Per 36?

[Cubbies2120]

PER should not be used here. In the PER top 50 there are 24 centers. Look at the names.

Nah that same energy wasn't used last year when Giannis broke the record.

FOH with that

[greekbuck34]

PER should not be used here. In the PER top 50 there are 24 centers. Look at the names.

Nah that same energy wasn't used last year when Giannis broke the record.

FOH with that

Nobody really cared about the PER record until it happened in the end of that Giannis season.

It was mainly Giannis averaging 30 points playing just 30 minutes while also winning the DPOY award and the best record in the NBA against Hardens scoring title.

[WRau1]

Don’t look now but the Bucks are 0.5 games back of the #1 seed and Giannis is 0.2ppg from leading the league in scoring while breaking his own PER record at 32.1.

He’s also still a leading candidate for DPOY while being either #1 or #2 in nearly every advanced stat category.

It’s looking like he’s gonna run away with it.

Looks can be deceiving though.

Unfortunately for Giannis, he doesn’t get to play the Lakers every night.

And unless the Bucks get some separation, those top teams are so clustered up that #1 or #4 really won’t matter much. Especially when there are going to be three west teams better than the top seed in the east.

Of course the final regular season record will matter, especially if the stats for the MVP candidates are close.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Don’t look now but the Bucks are 0.5 games back of the #1 seed and Giannis is 0.2ppg from leading the league in scoring while breaking his own PER record at 32.1.

He’s also still a leading candidate for DPOY while being either #1 or #2 in nearly every advanced stat category.

It’s looking like he’s gonna run away with it.

Looks can be deceiving though.

Unfortunately for Giannis, he doesn’t get to play the Lakers every night.

And unless the Bucks get some separation, those top teams are so clustered up that #1 or #4 really won’t matter much. Especially when there are going to be three west teams better than the top seed in the east.

Of course the final regular season record will matter, especially if the stats for the MVP candidates are close.

Context does matter. Record/seeding is a piece of the puzzle. If Giannis and Bucks (or Embiid and Sixers) go on a massive run where they are 8 games up at the end of the season, sure it will matter. If its just one or 2 games, stats / narrative probably win out. There is no magic number, stat, attribute, etc that will decide the MVP. Could be an exciting race where every voter has a different 'tie-breaker'

[CobraCommander]

I have it in tiers:

Tier 1:
Jokic
Embiid
Giannis

Tier 2:
Curry
Durant
DeRozan
Paul
Gobert

Tier 3 does not matter. I’m probably missing a player or two, but I think anyone of T1 can take it, with a slight favor to Big Yolk.

I think it’s Jokic because it’s a reg season record and he been balling since tip off...but I agree it’s tiers

Tier1 includes everyone that should be included and NO ONE else need apply -KD, Jokic, Curry, Embiid and Giannis....if one of them goes nuts down the stretch they win...it’s legit too tight for anyone to call and all have convincing arguments...but no one else no matter what they do should be considered -

Tier2 are all stories but should not be considered... Lebron and the stat padding and ITS Lebron so he gonna get some votes plus Derozen...which is a great story & CP3 and the best record and the feel good story about being great forever and never getting recognized

Tier3 Includes Ja and a bunch of other people that are not seriously MVP caliber this year for a variety of reasons and should not even get a single vote when the top tier is SO far ahead of the rest of the league....

it’s like 5 Prime Lebrons fighting for the MVP this year- Embiid and Jokic and Giannis are just constantly one upping each other like the Jordan Bird McDonalds commercial

And I have KD and Curry in this list because they BOTH had stretches where they were on a level that no one but the others in the top tier have approached this year. Guys have had good games but KD and Curry had months of insane play. If they close out the year doing something crazy they could win

The poll IMO - even in Vegas should just be 5 names...betting on anyone else should be throwing away money...and if I’m betting it’s Jokic

[AleksandarN]

With Harden on this team will this hurt Embiid's MVP bid? I can see his scoring suffer a bit now.

[Sgt Major]

Read on Twitter

[jokeboy86]

With Harden on this team will this hurt Embiid's MVP bid? I can see his scoring suffer a bit now.

I think now that the MVP race might now be officially Giannis's to lose because the narrative will now be back on his side. The media has always felt his #2(Middleton) is less than the other superstars and now that Embiid has Harden and KD still has Kyrie he probably becomes the only legitimate candidate in the East now. They still think Giannis doesn't have that 2nd "superstar".

Now Rivers could also convince Harden to just continue to force feed Embiid since that's been working but I think they'll want to start lessening his workload so he's fresh in the playoffs.

[greekbuck34]

Nah the east right now is too tough and the 4 legit contenders(5 if you count the Bulls) are 1 game away from eachother. If either Giannis or Embiid wins his conference he will win the award 100%.

[yoyoboy]

1. Jokic
2. Curry
3. Embiid
4. Giannis
5. Morant
6. Gobert
7. Paul
8. DeRozan
9. Garland
10. Tatum
HM: Durant, Doncic, Booker, Butler, FVV, KAT

[whatever_]

It's interesting to see that a guy who's putting up 27-9-9 and whose team is 33-23 is barely mentioned among the 5 best players of the season.

[bradybunch]

It's interesting to see that a guy who's putting up 27-9-9 and whose team is 33-23 is barely mentioned among the 5 best players of the season.

Quite interesting.

Especially considering his second option is Brunson.

People are leaving Luka out of the top 10 lol.