Does this Kobe stance have real merit

[One_and_Done]

Regardless, this all came up because it was claimed Kobe was 'too humble' to force his way to an elite team, when in fact it's clear that he was trying to force his way to a elite franchise before he even entered the league. Whether he could actually force teams to not draft him misses the point, which is that he tried to.

[Owly]

This is very well documented. Kobe worked out for very few teams, and his agent threatened that he'd play in Europe if certain teams drafted him (e.g. the Nets). Back then, the CBA was different, and a young Kobe could bail on your team very quickly. Also HS footage and scouting was minimal, so refusing to work out with teams or to do a medical really made it tough for them to draft you. Kobe was very focussed on forcing his way to LA.

It was easy for the Lakers to see how good Kove was, because he worked out for them. Very few teams got that chance (and I am cool with ripping the few who did, though it included teams like Philly at #1 who were going to find it tough to take a HSer 1st overall in that day and age).

On top of that, Jerry West was extremely high on him already before the draft. So you can be somewhat certain that West had communicated to his agent that he absolutely wanted him on the Lakers and that was where Kobe wanted to go anyhow so his agent could easily play the 'Kobe only wants to go to the Lakers' card and know that it would work out for him. All of this has been known for a very long time.

I could go either way on this. In terms of the Lakers actively promoting their interest, that isn't how Lazenby has it (rather suggesting it was concealed, and that for instance Charlotte were held unaware who they would be picking for LA [presumably having a plan for if whoever LA's guy was, was off the board]. There is some sense to this as advertising their interest would seem likely to make trading up more expensive for LA.

Then again the price of the 13th pick wasn't exactly cheap (again, granting LA wanted to create cap room, but as an acquiring team, Divac was a very good starting center). Still as Lazenby wrote it, it seems more "Kobe doesn't want to go to you" that Tellem put out, rather than noting the Lakers specifically.

[Cavsfansince84]

I could go either way on this. In terms of the Lakers actively promoting their interest, that isn't how Lazenby has it (rather suggesting it was concealed, and that for instance Charlotte were held unaware who they would be picking for LA [presumably having a plan for if whoever LA's guy was, was off the board]. There is some sense to this as advertising their interest would seem likely to make trading up more expensive for LA.

Then again the price of the 13th pick wasn't exactly cheap (again, granting LA wanted to create cap room, but as an acquiring team, Divac was a very good starting center). Still as Lazenby wrote it, it seems more "Kobe doesn't want to go to you" that Tellem put out, rather than noting the Lakers specifically.

I think it was concealed but once West told Tellum he wanted Kobe it allowed him to tell teams Kobe only wants to go to LA and West was more than willing to trade a valuable piece for him. Vlade was only 27 and easily a top 10 c in the league while Kobe was still a somewhat unknown commodity at the time. So it worked out for everyone but obviously West saw something in him I doubt anyone else did at the time.

[kcktiny]

This is very well documented.

That he forced his way particularly to the Lakers? That is patently false.

Did he want to play for the Lakers? Yes. He and his agent made that clear. Did they threaten the Nets he'd play overseas? Yes. But - again - any one of 12 teams had a chance to draft him. Did it every occur to you that they simply did not draft him because drafting a high school kid with a high 1st round pick is a big risk?

Kobe worked out for very few teams

A lot of draft eligible players work out for few teams, especially when they feel they received a promise from a specific team. This is not the least bit unusual.

and his agent threatened that he'd play in Europe

Agents threaten like this all the time. Heck in the late 80s Danny Ferry played overseas for a year when drafted by the Clippers rather than report to them.

Just this past draft Ace Bailey made threats about not wanting to be drafted by certain teams. The simple fact is that any player drafted into the NBA has the option to play elsewhere, as in overseas.

It was easy for the Lakers to see how good Kove was, because he worked out for them.

Oh but nobody else knew he was really good? Oh please - Bryant was publicly recognized as the 1995-96 High School Player of the Year and National Player of the year his senior season, was a McDonald's all-american, lead his team to a state title and broke scoring records. Everyone knew who he was.

You think NBA teams did not have access to video of him?

Very few teams got that chance

NBA teams often draft players that did not work out for them.

Highlighting that Bryant slid down such that 12 teams passed him up ... and yet the Lakers gave up a second tier center to the 13th pick ... that seems like too much for that pick, no?

Yes it is a lot. Can you think of how often an NBA team trades their starting C (this one just age 28) for a middle 1st round draft pick?

The Lakers did not sign Shaq until a week later. What if that deal had gone sour? Then the Lakers would have had a high school kid and - who- Elden Campbell at C?

In order to keep the Nets from picking him, Tellem had to convince New Jersey

Seven teams could have drafted Bryant, before New Jersey, as could the four other teams that drafted after the Nets. New Jersey had the 8th pick, Bryant was picked by Charlotte at # 13.

On top of that, Jerry West was extremely high on him already before the draft.

Yes he was. The story goes in Bryant's Lakers workout they had him go up against a 39/40 year old Michael Cooper and Bryant roasted him. But West wanted him long before that workout.

How much can anyone "force" management decisions ... IDK ... Kobe and his team were seemingly able to strong-arm at least one team...
on how willing Bryant would be to play out a career in Italy

Again any other team before # 13 could have drafted him. If he went overseas it would likely have been for just a year or two before the team that drafted him would have traded his rights.

it's possible that some teams were lazy (only watching NCAA tourney, awards etc) or risk-averse and didn't properly do their due diligence on Bryant.

Again Bryant was a very well known commodity at the time, top high school player in the country.

But - again - drafting a high school kid in the 1st round, in particular a guard and not a big man - is a huge risk.

watching HS back then would have been hard back

Not for the player that was the high school player of the year. The media covered him like a phenom.

[One_and_Done]

Ok, so before I reply, I should just clarify again that kck’s points are really not relevant to what is actually being discussed. Firstly, they’re not relevant to how good a player was, because a player’s personality off the court has no bearing to how good they were on the court. Karl Malone for example was a horrible person, but it didn’t affect his on court performance at all, so it’s not relevant when we rank him.

Secondly, it’s not relevant whether Kobe had the power to force teams to not take him, because the important thing is that he tried to do so. The whole reason this was brought up, was as part of a claim that Kobe was just too humble to try and force his way to a favourable situation, and the examples provided show that to be completely false (e.g. trying to force his way to LA before his career began, demanding a trade from LA, etc).

That said, just some factual corrections.

So firstly, the environment in 1996 was very different to today. High schoolers were considered very risky, and it was thought they mostly needed to go to college first to figure out how to play. The quality of HS teams varied greatly, and scouts didn’t go to HS games really. Footage was also not common. Try finding Kobe’s HS games online. There isn’t much out there. Back then everything was watched on VHS tapes, and the internet was in its infancy. If you were going to take a HSer with a lottery pick, you really needed to be sure they were worth it, and that’s tough to do when the guy won’t work out for you, won’t give you his medical, and has said he won’t play for you and will go to Europe and try to draft him.

Secondly, the CBA was very different back then. Only a few years earlier Chris Webber signed a 12 year contract with the Warriors… with a 1 year opt out. He indicated he would opt out after 1 year, and thus forced the Warriors to trade him almost immediately. The CBA had improved slightly by 1996, but the issues related to rookies and players forcing their way out weren’t properly addressed until the 1999 lock-out (FYI, Kobe was the only player to vote against the 99 CBA, because it would cost him a fortune and take away a lot of his power). Let’s say the Nets or Charlotte draft Kobe… the guy is going to force his way out in no time. So it’s a lose-lose situation. You’re taking a big risk as a GM by drafting a HS you have barely seen who doesn’t want to be there, and it’s a risk on a guy who will force his way out ASAP. The 99 CBA changed everything, because from then on rookies were more or less stuck with the team that drafted them for the next 7-8 years.

Lastly, who were the teams Kobe actually worked out for? Well, before he was locked in on LA or bust, he did actually conduct some other work-outs. I won’t go google the articles I’ve read on this, but from my memory the work-outs were with the 76ers, Nets, Boston, Clippers, and Lakers. It’s possible a few of the other teams mentioned like the Suns also got a look in. Now, the 76ers were drafting #1. It was going to be tough for them to take a high schooler #1 in that day and age. Very fair to criticise them, but Kobe being open to not going to the Lakers if he’s drafted #1 isn’t exactly a mark of humility. The Boston work out barely happened. Kobe was resistant to going, and told them he didn’t want to wear Celtics gear to work out. Afterwards he said it “wasn’t so bad”, but that’s not a great vibe for the Celtics when they consider if a player will stick around. They were also drafting #6. That’s again a tough sell for a high schooler in 1996. I am cool with criticising the Celtics, but you can see their reasons. The Nets were warned not to draft him, we’ve covered that already. Their GM would probably have been fired 3 years later after Kobe was no longer on the team. So far, I’m seeing a very limited list of teams Kobe is willing to play for, most of whom are not realistic.

The team I will criticise the most is the Clippers. They had the #7 pick, and took Lorenzen Wright. After his workout with them, they told him “that was the greatest workout we’ve ever seen” or words to that effect; “but we can’t draft you… because nobody will take us seriously if we draft a high schooler”. That is a huge fail, because I think Kobe would have been pretty happy to play for the Clippers as long as he was in LA, at least for a while.

If the Suns did get a work out, I can't criticise them for not taking him, because they picked #15 after he was selected, and drafted Steve Nash who was a better player anyway. The Knicks, another prestige market, had the #18 pick and might have had a tough time moving up anyway, so if they got a work out I'm not sure I'd be too harsh on them.

[migya]

Yeh, because Kobe was all about humility.

He wasn't about calling himself the greatest and stacking teams in his favour, to call himself greater for same reason.

Not that any of this has any bearing to how good a player is... but Kobe forced his way to the GOAT franchise before he even entered the league, forced the Lakers to trade Shaq because he was 'sick of being God damn Robin', demanded a trade when that backfired, vetoed the trade proposed because the Bulls wouldn't be stacked enough for him to succeed, and then was fortunate enough to be gifted Pau.

If Kobe had been drafted by Cleveland he would have left as soon as possible, and if LeBron had been drafted by LA and spent his first 8 years with prime Shaq he'd have won alot more than 3 titles in those 8 years. If he'd had the same teams Kobe had from 97 to 2013 he'd have won far, far more than Kobe.

It's a meaningless criticism to say a guy who was on a hopeless franchise had to leave to experience success, just like it's not much praise to say a guy was loyal when he was lucky enough to be drafted on stacked teams for almost his whole prime... like, it's easy to be loyal in such circumstances.

Definitely a stretch of what forcing is and not true at all.

Kobe getting Shaq traded doesn't help him look better, it did the opposite, not least in the winning factor, which he didn't for a long time. He was no robin in 2004 either. The Bulls weren't stacked enough but the Lakers at the time were? Wrong.

Lebron has been a cancer more than once and would have been even more jealous of Shaq, just been alot more conniving and scrupulous, inlike Kobe who spoke his mind at least. The Lakers with Lebron in place of Kobe win less, he isn't a riser and clutch as Kobe was, coming up in big moments, not shying away from them. They win in 01.

Jordan never left the Bulls for greener pastures, he stuck it out like a champ and become one, perhaps the greatest winner ever, going by team talent.

Lebron is not loyal. That word does not belong in conversation in relation to him.

[One_and_Done]

He wasn't about calling himself the greatest and stacking teams in his favour, to call himself greater for same reason.

Not that any of this has any bearing to how good a player is... but Kobe forced his way to the GOAT franchise before he even entered the league, forced the Lakers to trade Shaq because he was 'sick of being God damn Robin', demanded a trade when that backfired, vetoed the trade proposed because the Bulls wouldn't be stacked enough for him to succeed, and then was fortunate enough to be gifted Pau.

If Kobe had been drafted by Cleveland he would have left as soon as possible, and if LeBron had been drafted by LA and spent his first 8 years with prime Shaq he'd have won alot more than 3 titles in those 8 years. If he'd had the same teams Kobe had from 97 to 2013 he'd have won far, far more than Kobe.

It's a meaningless criticism to say a guy who was on a hopeless franchise had to leave to experience success, just like it's not much praise to say a guy was loyal when he was lucky enough to be drafted on stacked teams for almost his whole prime... like, it's easy to be loyal in such circumstances.

Definitely a stretch of what forcing is and not true at all.

Kobe getting Shaq traded doesn't help him look better, it did the opposite, not least in the winning factor, which he didn't for a long time. He was no robin in 2004 either. The Bulls weren't stacked enough but the Lakers at the time were? Wrong.

Lebron has been a cancer more than once and would have been even more jealous of Shaq, just been alot more conniving and scrupulous, inlike Kobe who spoke his mind at least. The Lakers with Lebron in place of Kobe win less, he isn't a riser and clutch as Kobe was, coming up in big moments, not shying away from them. They win in 01.

Jordan never left the Bulls for greener pastures, he stuck it out like a champ and become one, perhaps the greatest winner ever, going by team talent.

Lebron is not loyal. That word does not belong in conversation in relation to him.

You're conflating a bunch of random points, so I'm going to direct you to my post above, and remind you why any of these non-basketball points are being brought up by people. It was claimed Kobe was 'too humble' to demand a trade to a better situation. The facts show that is demonstrably false. Him demanding Shaq be traded is only being brought up because it shows his lack of humility, not because anyone thinks that was a wise move.

Loyalty has nothing to do with how good you are at basketball. It'll just be easier for you to read my previous post, it's right above yours, as this waa all explained already in detail.

It's also easy to never demand a trade if your team is super well managed and puts you in a great position. Loyalty, not that it matters when evaluating talent, is only shown when times are tough.

[migya]

Not that any of this has any bearing to how good a player is... but Kobe forced his way to the GOAT franchise before he even entered the league, forced the Lakers to trade Shaq because he was 'sick of being God damn Robin', demanded a trade when that backfired, vetoed the trade proposed because the Bulls wouldn't be stacked enough for him to succeed, and then was fortunate enough to be gifted Pau.

If Kobe had been drafted by Cleveland he would have left as soon as possible, and if LeBron had been drafted by LA and spent his first 8 years with prime Shaq he'd have won alot more than 3 titles in those 8 years. If he'd had the same teams Kobe had from 97 to 2013 he'd have won far, far more than Kobe.

It's a meaningless criticism to say a guy who was on a hopeless franchise had to leave to experience success, just like it's not much praise to say a guy was loyal when he was lucky enough to be drafted on stacked teams for almost his whole prime... like, it's easy to be loyal in such circumstances.

Definitely a stretch of what forcing is and not true at all.

Kobe getting Shaq traded doesn't help him look better, it did the opposite, not least in the winning factor, which he didn't for a long time. He was no robin in 2004 either. The Bulls weren't stacked enough but the Lakers at the time were? Wrong.

Lebron has been a cancer more than once and would have been even more jealous of Shaq, just been alot more conniving and scrupulous, inlike Kobe who spoke his mind at least. The Lakers with Lebron in place of Kobe win less, he isn't a riser and clutch as Kobe was, coming up in big moments, not shying away from them. They win in 01.

Jordan never left the Bulls for greener pastures, he stuck it out like a champ and become one, perhaps the greatest winner ever, going by team talent.

Lebron is not loyal. That word does not belong in conversation in relation to him.

You're conflating a bunch of random points, so I'm going to direct you to my post above, and remind you why any of these non-basketball points are being brought up by people. It was claimed Kobe was 'too humble' to demand a trade to a better situation. The facts show that is demonstrably false. Him demanding Shaq be traded is only being brought up because it shows his lack of humility, not because anyone thinks that was a wise move.

Loyalty has nothing to do with how good you are at basketball. It'll just be easier for you to read my previous post, it's right above yours, as this waa all explained already in detail.

It's also easy to never demand a trade if your team is super well managed and puts you in a great position. Loyalty, not that it matters when evaluating talent, is only shown when times are tough.

As mine and others previous posts show, Kobe was not hated by media, which was what I asked early in this thread, and to the subject of loyalty, brought up later and pertaining comparison using Lebron, in regards to attitude by media towards him, it is quite opposite between the two.

The Lakers after Shaq left were poorly managed, and at their worst in the franchise compared to many years beforehand. Kobe never bailed and could have, to join other greats at the time, but knew that would diminish his career and wasn't him, or anyone series in competition, whereas Lebron has been going to the best and easiest situation since 2010.

[One_and_Done]

Definitely a stretch of what forcing is and not true at all.

Kobe getting Shaq traded doesn't help him look better, it did the opposite, not least in the winning factor, which he didn't for a long time. He was no robin in 2004 either. The Bulls weren't stacked enough but the Lakers at the time were? Wrong.

Lebron has been a cancer more than once and would have been even more jealous of Shaq, just been alot more conniving and scrupulous, inlike Kobe who spoke his mind at least. The Lakers with Lebron in place of Kobe win less, he isn't a riser and clutch as Kobe was, coming up in big moments, not shying away from them. They win in 01.

Jordan never left the Bulls for greener pastures, he stuck it out like a champ and become one, perhaps the greatest winner ever, going by team talent.

Lebron is not loyal. That word does not belong in conversation in relation to him.

You're conflating a bunch of random points, so I'm going to direct you to my post above, and remind you why any of these non-basketball points are being brought up by people. It was claimed Kobe was 'too humble' to demand a trade to a better situation. The facts show that is demonstrably false. Him demanding Shaq be traded is only being brought up because it shows his lack of humility, not because anyone thinks that was a wise move.

Loyalty has nothing to do with how good you are at basketball. It'll just be easier for you to read my previous post, it's right above yours, as this waa all explained already in detail.

It's also easy to never demand a trade if your team is super well managed and puts you in a great position. Loyalty, not that it matters when evaluating talent, is only shown when times are tough.

As mine and others previous posts show, Kobe was not hated by media, which was what I asked early in this thread, and to the subject of loyalty, brought up later and pertaining comparison using Lebron, in regards to attitude by media towards him, it is quite opposite between the two.

The Lakers after Shaq left were poorly managed, and at their worst in the franchise compared to many years beforehand. Kobe never bailed and could have, to join other greats at the time, but knew that would diminish his career and wasn't him, or anyone series in competition, whereas Lebron has been going to the best and easiest situation since 2010.

I mean, that's just flat out untrue. Kobe demanded a trade from the Lakers when things got tough. Then, when the Lakers arranged one, he vetoed it because the team around him in his new destination wouldn't have been stacked enough. That's all on the record.

I also don't get how the Cavs or Lakers were the 'easiest and best destinations'. The Cavs had missed the playoffs every year since Lebron left. When he returned, the team needed an upgrade. The fact that they succeeded anyway was a credit to Lebron. Nobody looked at the situation in Cleveland in 2014 and thought 'well, there's the best situation in the NBA, they're stacked!' Similarly, the Lakers were bad before Lebron arrived. So bad that when Lebron got hurt for the first time in his career it led to the team missing the playoffs. Nobody thought Lebron was walking into a stacked team in 2019. If he wanted to do so, he could have gone to Houston who actually were pretty stacked.

Not that it matters, but even these tangents you're on are just false. Of course Kobe didn't leave to join a super team, he had one for every year of his prime except 05-07. The only 3 years the Lakers weren't stacked he tried to bail.

[Cavsfansince84]

As mine and others previous posts show, Kobe was not hated by media, which was what I asked early in this thread, and to the subject of loyalty, brought up later and pertaining comparison using Lebron, in regards to attitude by media towards him, it is quite opposite between the two.

The Lakers after Shaq left were poorly managed, and at their worst in the franchise compared to many years beforehand. Kobe never bailed and could have, to join other greats at the time, but knew that would diminish his career and wasn't him, or anyone series in competition, whereas Lebron has been going to the best and easiest situation since 2010.

Silly to even compare Kobe's situation circa 2005-07 to LeBron's at any point when he already had 3 rings in the bag at that point. 98-04 Kobe was on stacked teams with the goat coach. LeBron led his scrub teams to 66/61 win seasons is the main difference. Granted Kobe played in the west but deep down I think Kobe wanted to have no other stars on his team for a few seasons so he could put up 35ppg and try to show he was equal to MJ as a scorer. Then by 07 he's tired of being on teams going nowhere so tells his gm either get someone else or trade me. This is ridiculous and more than that, the whole loyalty argument is completely meaningless to me when I look at them as players. It's like a weird footnote that people tack on to try and make LeBron's accomplishments seem less impressive and bring up players like Kobe as false equivalency. Most players don't give two ****'s about the whole idea of team loyalty. What they want to do is win. Duncan nearly left SA after winning 1-2 rings there. Kobe nearly left LA after winning 3.

[migya]

As mine and others previous posts show, Kobe was not hated by media, which was what I asked early in this thread, and to the subject of loyalty, brought up later and pertaining comparison using Lebron, in regards to attitude by media towards him, it is quite opposite between the two.

The Lakers after Shaq left were poorly managed, and at their worst in the franchise compared to many years beforehand. Kobe never bailed and could have, to join other greats at the time, but knew that would diminish his career and wasn't him, or anyone series in competition, whereas Lebron has been going to the best and easiest situation since 2010.

Silly to even compare Kobe's situation circa 2005-07 to LeBron's at any point when he already had 3 rings in the bag at that point. 98-04 Kobe was on stacked teams with the goat coach. LeBron led his scrub teams to 66/61 win seasons is the main difference. Granted Kobe played in the west but deep down I think Kobe wanted to have no other stars on his team for a few seasons so he could put up 35ppg and try to show he was equal to MJ as a scorer. Then by 07 he's tired of being on teams going nowhere so tells his gm either get someone else or trade me. This is ridiculous and more than that, the whole loyalty argument is completely meaningless to me when I look at them as players. It's like a weird footnote that people tack on to try and make LeBron's accomplishments seem less impressive and bring up players like Kobe as false equivalency. Most players don't give two ****'s about the whole idea of team loyalty. What they want to do is win. Duncan nearly left SA after winning 1-2 rings there. Kobe nearly left LA after winning 3.

It's irrelevant how many rings Kobe had bu 05-07, the point is his team in those years was close to the worst there was. In his first few years, Kobe's Lakers were very talented but when they won the championships they weren't. Outside of Kobe and Shaq who did they have of note? Past prime Rice and Horace/AC is average at best. The 08-10 Lakers teams were not stacked and certainly not comparable to Lebron's Heat and second stint Cavs. They beat better teams than Lebron's ever did also.

[Cavsfansince84]

It's irrelevant how many rings Kobe had bu 05-07, the point is his team in those years was close to the worst there was. In his first few years, Kobe's Lakers were very talented but when they won the championships they weren't. Outside of Kobe and Shaq who did they have of note? Past prime Rice and Horace/AC is average at best. The 08-10 Lakers teams were not stacked and certainly not comparable to Lebron's Heat and second stint Cavs. They beat better teams than Lebron's ever did also.

I'm not going to go into this with you. All those teams were stacked because Jerry West knew how to build teams and knew what Phil needed for his system. I already talked about this in this very thread multiple times how all those title teams had great rebounding and other role players who could play defense and fit perfectly around Shaq/Kobe and Kobe. Pau was a legit top 10-12 player those years and there's a reason he kept leading the Lakers in win shares most every year he played with Kobe. It's because he was pretty damn good. On top of having Phil as the hc which gets way overlooked as though all coaches are just equal or something.

[One_and_Done]

As mine and others previous posts show, Kobe was not hated by media, which was what I asked early in this thread, and to the subject of loyalty, brought up later and pertaining comparison using Lebron, in regards to attitude by media towards him, it is quite opposite between the two.

The Lakers after Shaq left were poorly managed, and at their worst in the franchise compared to many years beforehand. Kobe never bailed and could have, to join other greats at the time, but knew that would diminish his career and wasn't him, or anyone series in competition, whereas Lebron has been going to the best and easiest situation since 2010.

Silly to even compare Kobe's situation circa 2005-07 to LeBron's at any point when he already had 3 rings in the bag at that point. 98-04 Kobe was on stacked teams with the goat coach. LeBron led his scrub teams to 66/61 win seasons is the main difference. Granted Kobe played in the west but deep down I think Kobe wanted to have no other stars on his team for a few seasons so he could put up 35ppg and try to show he was equal to MJ as a scorer. Then by 07 he's tired of being on teams going nowhere so tells his gm either get someone else or trade me. This is ridiculous and more than that, the whole loyalty argument is completely meaningless to me when I look at them as players. It's like a weird footnote that people tack on to try and make LeBron's accomplishments seem less impressive and bring up players like Kobe as false equivalency. Most players don't give two ****'s about the whole idea of team loyalty. What they want to do is win. Duncan nearly left SA after winning 1-2 rings there. Kobe nearly left LA after winning 3.

It's irrelevant how many rings Kobe had bu 05-07, the point is his team in those years was close to the worst there was. In his first few years, Kobe's Lakers were very talented but when they won the championships they weren't. Outside of Kobe and Shaq who did they have of note? Past prime Rice and Horace/AC is average at best. The 08-10 Lakers teams were not stacked and certainly not comparable to Lebron's Heat and second stint Cavs. They beat better teams than Lebron's ever did also.

When a team has Shaq and Kobe it shouldn't matter if their other 3 starters are average players. Acting like they needed a 3rd superstar to be considered stacked is absurd. In the history of the league there has only once been a pairing of 2 players at that level before, and that was on the GOAT team; the 17 & 18 Warriors, who won a title every year they were healthy.

2 players of that level playing together in their prime for an extended period just doesn't happen. The closest other example would be Lebron & Wade, though Wade wasn't exactly at his best still during their pairing, but that team killed it too. They needed 1 year to figure out the right way to play and balance the roster, and even for that first year they still made the finals. They win the next 2 titles, even though Wade's drop off got quite noticeable, and in 2014 Wade wasn't that good anymore. Lebron and Wade were also a bad fit because their skills were duplicative. Shaq and Kobe's skillsets should have fit together seamlessly.

Kobe spent the first 8 years of his career next to prime Shaq. 8 years! And btw, even though it shouldn't matter, they actually did have help. Some of those role players you sneered at were really good. The 00 Lakers had Fox, Fisher, Horry, and Rice. Those are good role players to have.

Your claim the 09 and 10 Lakers were not stacked is just wrong. Pau had led the Grizzlies to three straight 50-ish win seasons with pretty so-so support casts. Pau's starters in 06 were Battier, old man Eddie Jones, Chucky Atkins, and Lorenzen Wright. That team won 49 games. This was exactly 1 year after Kobe failed to make the playoffs with an arguably superior starting line-up of Chucky Atkins, Odom, C.Butler, and Chris Mihm.

Pau was a legit top 10-15 player in the league easily. But there was so much more than Pau; the 09 team had all-star calibre players like Odom and Bynum, and elite 3&D wing in Ariza, and a solid starting 1 in Fisher. Even Radman and Farmer were good bench players. Before you push back on this, yes Odom and Bynum were all-star calibre guys. Odom had just gotten a near max contract from the Heat and helped lead them to the playoffs. If he'd stuck around as Wade's Robin in the East he'd have made a bunch of all-star teams. Instead he got traded to the Lakers and ended up taking a lesser role on a stacked team. Similarly, there was a reason Bynum got a max contract from the Sixers and made an all-star and all-nba team once he got enough touches. Everyone saw him as an up and coming star big. Unfortunately he was destroyed by injuries. In fairness, he did only play 50 games in 09.

Lebron didn't have a single all-star calibre player when he was leading the Cavs to 60+ win seasons in 09 & 10. Odom or Bynum would easily have been the next best players on the Cavs, and with their increased roles they'd have made all-star teams those years.

The next year the Lakers actually got more talented, although they were less healthy. They actually managed to swap Ariza, a 3&D guy, for a 30 year old Artest who was still in his prime. Artest had been the franchise player for the contender Pacers, then played like an all-star for the Kings and Rockets. He was an extremely valuable player, who took a lesser role with the Lakers to win, though obviously his impact was more on the defensive end and some years his offense was inconsistent. You can't judge these guys from 'ppg!', because there is only 1 ball to go around and guys are taking lesser roles to win.

[falcolombardi]

Man we have gone over the 08-10 lakers many times and people keep rewriting history as if that was not a top 2 supporting cast for the time lol

[falcolombardi]

As mine and others previous posts show, Kobe was not hated by media, which was what I asked early in this thread, and to the subject of loyalty, brought up later and pertaining comparison using Lebron, in regards to attitude by media towards him, it is quite opposite between the two.

The Lakers after Shaq left were poorly managed, and at their worst in the franchise compared to many years beforehand. Kobe never bailed and could have, to join other greats at the time, but knew that would diminish his career and wasn't him, or anyone series in competition, whereas Lebron has been going to the best and easiest situation since 2010.

Silly to even compare Kobe's situation circa 2005-07 to LeBron's at any point when he already had 3 rings in the bag at that point. 98-04 Kobe was on stacked teams with the goat coach. LeBron led his scrub teams to 66/61 win seasons is the main difference. Granted Kobe played in the west but deep down I think Kobe wanted to have no other stars on his team for a few seasons so he could put up 35ppg and try to show he was equal to MJ as a scorer. Then by 07 he's tired of being on teams going nowhere so tells his gm either get someone else or trade me. This is ridiculous and more than that, the whole loyalty argument is completely meaningless to me when I look at them as players. It's like a weird footnote that people tack on to try and make LeBron's accomplishments seem less impressive and bring up players like Kobe as false equivalency. Most players don't give two ****'s about the whole idea of team loyalty. What they want to do is win. Duncan nearly left SA after winning 1-2 rings there. Kobe nearly left LA after winning 3.

It's irrelevant how many rings Kobe had bu 05-07, the point is his team in those years was close to the worst there was. In his first few years, Kobe's Lakers were very talented but when they won the championships they weren't. Outside of Kobe and Shaq who did they have of note? Past prime Rice and Horace/AC is average at best. The 08-10 Lakers teams were not stacked and certainly not comparable to Lebron's Heat and second stint Cavs. They beat better teams than Lebron's ever did also.

Who did they beat that was better than 2012 okc? Let alone 2013 spurs? Let alone 2016 warriors?

[One_and_Done]

Man we have gone over the 08-10 lakers many times and people keep rewriting history as if that was not a top 2 supporting cast for the time lol

Yeh, the one thing worth noting is that Celtics also had a super team at the time. Unfortunately im 09 KG got hurt and missed the end of the season, and was never really the same again. The 09 injury marked the end of KGs prime. However, I'd say the 08 Celtics support cast was maybe even better than the Lakers support cast.

[falcolombardi]

Man we have gone over the 08-10 lakers many times and people keep rewriting history as if that was not a top 2 supporting cast for the time lol

Yeh, the one thing worth noting is that Celtics also had a super team at the time. Unfortunately im 09 KG got hurt and missed the end of the season, and was never really the same again. The 09 injury marked the end of KGs prime. However, I'd say the 08 Celtics supporting cast was maybe even better than the Lakers support cast.

Celtics supporting cast was the other team i meant in my top 2, and i dont think anyone else is close with orlando maybe a distant 3rd

[Primedeion]

Man we have gone over the 08-10 lakers many times and people keep rewriting history as if that was not a top 2 supporting cast for the time lol

You've gone over it all those times and you're still wrong.

The 08 Lakers don't even sniff the postseason without Kobe. With him? 58 wins, 7.4 SRS, and the #1 seed in the best conference in history. 9.7 full-strength SRS (one of the highest marks ever). Make the Finals and come within two games of winning it all against GOAT level postseason competition.

The 09 Lakers don't even make the postseason without him. And if they do? They're a #8 seed that gets destroyed in the first round. With him? They're a top fifteen team OAT with the #1 offense in the league.

Try again.

[falcolombardi]

Man we have gone over the 08-10 lakers many times and people keep rewriting history as if that was not a top 2 supporting cast for the time lol

You've gone over it all those times and you're still wrong.

The 08 Lakers don't even sniff the postseason without Kobe. With him? 58 wins, 7.4 SRS, and the #1 seed in the best conference in history. 9.7 full-strength SRS (one of the highest marks ever). Make the Finals and come within two games of winning it all against GOAT level postseason competition.

The 09 Lakers don't even make the postseason without him. And if they do? They're a #8 seed that gets destroyed in the first round. With him? They're a top fifteen team OAT with the #1 offense in the league.

Try again.

Sure

So can you point to a non boston celtics team that you would confidently argue was better than kobe's cast? (under the obvious disclaimer of missing their star too)

2008 lakers quite literally were the worst performing team against boston somehow in a slate that included the .500 joe johnson hawks, not sure it is a point to make here

2009 lakers were pretty great, they also had a legitimate top 10-15 player as a sidekick and 2 guys with sub-all star impact making a stacked front court in odom and bynum + a strong wing stopper in ariza, that team legitimately may win 50+ games without kobe nor anyone replacing him

[One_and_Done]

Man we have gone over the 08-10 lakers many times and people keep rewriting history as if that was not a top 2 supporting cast for the time lol

You've gone over it all those times and you're still wrong.

The 08 Lakers don't even sniff the postseason without Kobe. With him? 58 wins, 7.4 SRS, and the #1 seed in the best conference in history. 9.7 full-strength SRS (one of the highest marks ever). Make the Finals and come within two games of winning it all against GOAT level postseason competition.

The 09 Lakers don't even make the postseason without him. And if they do? They're a #8 seed that gets destroyed in the first round. With him? They're a top fifteen team OAT with the #1 offense in the league.

Try again.

Pau led the Grizzlies to 49 wins in the West in 06 with a starting line-up of Lorenzen Wright, Chucky Atkins, old man Eddie Jones, and Battier. I'm pretty sure he's taking the Lakers to 55+ wins when his starting line-up is Bynum, Odom, Ariza, and Fisher.

Before you say 'Bynum only played 50 games in the RS', Atkins also missed large chunks of the season and his replacement was a washed Mighty Mouse. Wright was so bad he was benched at times for Jake T. Half the Grizzlies I named were so bad they were out of the league within 2 years. Guys like Jake T, washed Stoudemire, and end of the road L.Wright were not NBA players.