Quickley or Shead?

[YogurtProducer]

Now this we simply disagree on. If you look at something simple like on/off from https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612761/onoffcourt-summary Shead has a better imapct. That's not nothing, Shead clearly makes a difference, and in this stat, moreso than Quick. I think seeing how the Raps do with Shead in the starting lineup is also different to "always start Shead"

NY loves IQ when he came of the bench. I like IQ, think he's a great piece. Just don't agree it's some huge chasm overall. When Quickley is having an off day, which is often enough, he doesn't have much impact.

There are some reasons why Shead's on/off impact is better than IQ's on/off impact though. First, and most obvious, IQ plays the majority of his minutes against starters whereas Shead plays the majority of his minutes against bench lineups with 1-2 starters sprinkled in. Furthermore, it is a lot more noticeable and more impactful to stats when IQ is having a bad night because he is typically playing 30+ minutes whereas Shead will play 10-15 minutes off the bench on nights that he isn't making in impact. As such, Shead gets the benefit of coming off of the bench and having his minutes reduced if he isn't performing on any given night whereas IQ is expected to come up big in winning time — as he did last night after having a pretty mediocre first three quarters.

When it comes to IQ not making much of an impact when he isn't playing well, the same thing can be said for 75% of players in the league — including Shead. More than anything, it seems like people are so hard on IQ simply because he is making 32M per year and not the 25M per year that some maybe expected. The reality is that he has produced pretty close to what you'd expect from as the 53rd highest player in the league; he is averaging 16/4/6 on 56 TS% while he is 60th in EPM, 56th in BPM and 45th in VORP — and he has done that despite not really having many breakout/great performances. I think he has potential to do a bit more, but I'm also not going to throw him under the bus for slightly underperforming his contract and my expectations.

Great post. A tale as old as time is a team loving the shiny rookie/sophomore backup and blaming a teams shortcomings on the higher paid vets.

IQ really has performed below what I expect, and what anyone reasonable should expect when you look at his historical shooting %’s. He Honeslty shoukd probably perform better as he progresses to the mean. But as you said, even then he is definitely still earning his contract.

Shead gets sheltered a lot as you said - he plays big minutes when he’s performing well and gets sat down when he’s having a tough go

His strengths are also exaggerated on here. Hes not some elite defender or playmaker. He’s good in those areas. On the other hand, his deficiencies are just ignored. IQ gets blasted for missing a few 3’s but Shead is allowed to rock a sub 50% TS% which is damn near last in the entire NBA

The double standard is unbelievable really

[MEDIC]

I'd love to steal Anthony Black somehow. That guy is ballin this season.

[YogurtProducer]

Shead is not a starting PG on a playoff team but neither is IQ.

IQ is currently starting on a playoff team.

Were ahead of Philly/Atlanta/Cleveland/Orlando/Miami and only 1.5 games back of the "all in" knicks. Weve had a very good season so far all things considered

And yet I’ve seen multiple people complaining about our “disgraceful” contract situations and roster makeup despite all that

I think a big part of it was people thought we would suck coming into the season, and now the heels are dug to deeply in to admit they were wrong.

[MEDIC]

IQ is currently starting on a playoff team.

Were ahead of Philly/Atlanta/Cleveland/Orlando/Miami and only 1.5 games back of the "all in" knicks. Weve had a very good season so far all things considered

And yet I’ve seen multiple people complaining about our “disgraceful” contract situations and roster makeup despite all that

I think a big part of it was people thought we would suck coming into the season, and now the heels are dug to deeply in to admit they were wrong.

I thought they would be a 44-50 win team.

I do have concerns about this team in the playoffs though......with the current roster. We will see.....

Maybe Yak comes.back healthy & this team goes on a tear. Who knows....

[MEDIC]

I hope one day Shead turns into a legit starting PG. He is not there yet though.

[YogurtProducer]

Were ahead of Philly/Atlanta/Cleveland/Orlando/Miami and only 1.5 games back of the "all in" knicks. Weve had a very good season so far all things considered

And yet I’ve seen multiple people complaining about our “disgraceful” contract situations and roster makeup despite all that

I think a big part of it was people thought we would suck coming into the season, and now the heels are dug to deeply in to admit they were wrong.

I thought they would be a 44-50 win team.

I do have concerns about this team in the playoffs though......with the current roster. We will see.....

Maybe Yak comes.back healthy & this team goes on a tear. Who knows....

I initially thought anything from 40-50 wins was the outcome depending on health (of us and the rest of the conference)

I also have playoff concerns… but so does most of the league outside like 4 teams.

I am excited to see Jak come back and see us be able to play with the versatility we got now. We can go double PG, traditional, Big with Barnes / CMB / Jak, etc.

We match up quite well with a lot of teams

[pingpongrac]

Now this we simply disagree on. If you look at something simple like on/off from https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612761/onoffcourt-summary Shead has a better imapct. That's not nothing, Shead clearly makes a difference, and in this stat, moreso than Quick. I think seeing how the Raps do with Shead in the starting lineup is also different to "always start Shead"

NY loves IQ when he came of the bench. I like IQ, think he's a great piece. Just don't agree it's some huge chasm overall. When Quickley is having an off day, which is often enough, he doesn't have much impact.

There are some reasons why Shead's on/off impact is better than IQ's on/off impact though. First, and most obvious, IQ plays the majority of his minutes against starters whereas Shead plays the majority of his minutes against bench lineups with 1-2 starters sprinkled in. Furthermore, it is a lot more noticeable and more impactful to stats when IQ is having a bad night because he is typically playing 30+ minutes whereas Shead will play 10-15 minutes off the bench on nights that he isn't making in impact. As such, Shead gets the benefit of coming off of the bench and having his minutes reduced if he isn't performing on any given night whereas IQ is expected to come up big in winning time — as he did last night after having a pretty mediocre first three quarters.

When it comes to IQ not making much of an impact when he isn't playing well, the same thing can be said for 75% of players in the league — including Shead. More than anything, it seems like people are so hard on IQ simply because he is making 32M per year and not the 25M per year that some maybe expected. The reality is that he has produced pretty close to what you'd expect from as the 53rd highest player in the league; he is averaging 16/4/6 on 56 TS% while he is 60th in EPM, 56th in BPM and 45th in VORP — and he has done that despite not really having many breakout/great performances. I think he has potential to do a bit more, but I'm also not going to throw him under the bus for slightly underperforming his contract and my expectations.

Ah personally I don't judge players by their contract, certainly not in this context we're talking about. I do disagree with "off game" contributions. IQ is a good player, there's no question about that, but when he's off he's practically invisible. Shead provides about the same level of playmaking when he's off. He just sucks at shooting even more that he always does.

But the on/off argument though... idk, this is why people want to see how much of a floor raiser Shead is with the starters. Is it consistent? Just outright dismissing that is foolhardy. Do extra minutes help Shead, or hurt him? IQ already gets the benefit of the doubt there.

What do you consider an off-night for IQ? Because in his five single-digit scoring games this season, he is averaging 6.2 AST (which is right in line with his season average) and 4.0 REB (which is right in line with his season average) while averaging 1.6 TOV (which is right in line with his season average). Prior to the past few games when IQ has been playing much more off the ball and only totaled 3 AST, he has consistently been in the 5-7 AST range while giving us 15-20 PTS more often than not. You're downplaying his off-game contributions while exaggerating how impactful Shead has been on his off nights...which is also a silly point to make when the majority of Shead's games could be considered off-nights as he has shot below 40% from the field in more than half of our games.

[YogurtProducer]

There are some reasons why Shead's on/off impact is better than IQ's on/off impact though. First, and most obvious, IQ plays the majority of his minutes against starters whereas Shead plays the majority of his minutes against bench lineups with 1-2 starters sprinkled in. Furthermore, it is a lot more noticeable and more impactful to stats when IQ is having a bad night because he is typically playing 30+ minutes whereas Shead will play 10-15 minutes off the bench on nights that he isn't making in impact. As such, Shead gets the benefit of coming off of the bench and having his minutes reduced if he isn't performing on any given night whereas IQ is expected to come up big in winning time — as he did last night after having a pretty mediocre first three quarters.

When it comes to IQ not making much of an impact when he isn't playing well, the same thing can be said for 75% of players in the league — including Shead. More than anything, it seems like people are so hard on IQ simply because he is making 32M per year and not the 25M per year that some maybe expected. The reality is that he has produced pretty close to what you'd expect from as the 53rd highest player in the league; he is averaging 16/4/6 on 56 TS% while he is 60th in EPM, 56th in BPM and 45th in VORP — and he has done that despite not really having many breakout/great performances. I think he has potential to do a bit more, but I'm also not going to throw him under the bus for slightly underperforming his contract and my expectations.

Ah personally I don't judge players by their contract, certainly not in this context we're talking about. I do disagree with "off game" contributions. IQ is a good player, there's no question about that, but when he's off he's practically invisible. Shead provides about the same level of playmaking when he's off. He just sucks at shooting even more that he always does.

But the on/off argument though... idk, this is why people want to see how much of a floor raiser Shead is with the starters. Is it consistent? Just outright dismissing that is foolhardy. Do extra minutes help Shead, or hurt him? IQ already gets the benefit of the doubt there.

What do you consider an off-night for IQ? Because in his five single-digit scoring games this season, he is averaging 6.2 AST (which is right in line with his season average) and 4.0 REB (which is right in line with his season average) while averaging 1.6 TOV (which is right in line with his season average). Prior to the past few games when IQ has been playing much more off the ball and only totaled 3 AST, he has consistently been in the 5-7 AST range while giving us 15-20 PTS more often than not. You're downplaying his off-game contributions while exaggerating how impactful Shead has been on his off nights...which is also a silly point to make when the majority of Shead's games could be considered off-nights as he has shot below 40% from the field in more than half of our games.

but have you considered that Shead “plays the right way”?

[Westside Gunn]

^I don't understand the requirement of some sophisticated creative playmaking from Quickley. Not needed. You have 3 other creators on the floor with him. And from all the games I've watched he's not even taking shots away from anyone like FVV was. When you really think about it, this is not the starting lineup you would want to be in if you want to be a true PG, and Quickley is transitioning from a SG to a full time PG. With the bench and its awful output for the longest time, Shead has to be more creative to get them in the right spots which is why it stands out more from a playmaking perspective.

[Jakay]

Ah personally I don't judge players by their contract, certainly not in this context we're talking about. I do disagree with "off game" contributions. IQ is a good player, there's no question about that, but when he's off he's practically invisible. Shead provides about the same level of playmaking when he's off. He just sucks at shooting even more that he always does.

But the on/off argument though... idk, this is why people want to see how much of a floor raiser Shead is with the starters. Is it consistent? Just outright dismissing that is foolhardy. Do extra minutes help Shead, or hurt him? IQ already gets the benefit of the doubt there.

What do you consider an off-night for IQ? Because in his five single-digit scoring games this season, he is averaging 6.2 AST (which is right in line with his season average) and 4.0 REB (which is right in line with his season average) while averaging 1.6 TOV (which is right in line with his season average). Prior to the past few games when IQ has been playing much more off the ball and only totaled 3 AST, he has consistently been in the 5-7 AST range while giving us 15-20 PTS more often than not. You're downplaying his off-game contributions while exaggerating how impactful Shead has been on his off nights...which is also a silly point to make when the majority of Shead's games could be considered off-nights as he has shot below 40% from the field in more than half of our games.

but have you considered that Shead “plays the right way”?

Which is not anything I ever said. But you guys are clearly having a nice little circle jerk so I'm going to bow out from here.

[Jakay]

There are some reasons why Shead's on/off impact is better than IQ's on/off impact though. First, and most obvious, IQ plays the majority of his minutes against starters whereas Shead plays the majority of his minutes against bench lineups with 1-2 starters sprinkled in. Furthermore, it is a lot more noticeable and more impactful to stats when IQ is having a bad night because he is typically playing 30+ minutes whereas Shead will play 10-15 minutes off the bench on nights that he isn't making in impact. As such, Shead gets the benefit of coming off of the bench and having his minutes reduced if he isn't performing on any given night whereas IQ is expected to come up big in winning time — as he did last night after having a pretty mediocre first three quarters.

When it comes to IQ not making much of an impact when he isn't playing well, the same thing can be said for 75% of players in the league — including Shead. More than anything, it seems like people are so hard on IQ simply because he is making 32M per year and not the 25M per year that some maybe expected. The reality is that he has produced pretty close to what you'd expect from as the 53rd highest player in the league; he is averaging 16/4/6 on 56 TS% while he is 60th in EPM, 56th in BPM and 45th in VORP — and he has done that despite not really having many breakout/great performances. I think he has potential to do a bit more, but I'm also not going to throw him under the bus for slightly underperforming his contract and my expectations.

Ah personally I don't judge players by their contract, certainly not in this context we're talking about. I do disagree with "off game" contributions. IQ is a good player, there's no question about that, but when he's off he's practically invisible. Shead provides about the same level of playmaking when he's off. He just sucks at shooting even more that he always does.

But the on/off argument though... idk, this is why people want to see how much of a floor raiser Shead is with the starters. Is it consistent? Just outright dismissing that is foolhardy. Do extra minutes help Shead, or hurt him? IQ already gets the benefit of the doubt there.

What do you consider an off-night for IQ? Because in his five single-digit scoring games this season, he is averaging 6.2 AST (which is right in line with his season average) and 4.0 REB (which is right in line with his season average) while averaging 1.6 TOV (which is right in line with his season average). Prior to the past few games when IQ has been playing much more off the ball and only totaled 3 AST, he has consistently been in the 5-7 AST range while giving us 15-20 PTS more often than not. You're downplaying his off-game contributions while exaggerating how impactful Shead has been on his off nights...which is also a silly point to make when the majority of Shead's games could be considered off-nights as he has shot below 40% from the field in more than half of our games.

You're also missing the point that they're at different points in their career and I'm not downplaying IQ at all and think he's a valuable member of the team who makes positive contributions? Was pretty clear about that, preference for one over the other with a gun to my head. But see above.

[NotMyKawhi]

You only value shead more bc of contract. Which is understandable considering you're close to the tax and gotta pay Mamu and Shead.

But IQ is underrated. Not everyone can be a star on a team with BI, Scottie and RJ. He plays a role. Good assist to turnover guy. Shoots the 3. Plays defence. Most PGs dont. Good rebounder for a PG. Plays w 3 20 point scores and still gets 16 a night.

[pingpongrac]

Ah personally I don't judge players by their contract, certainly not in this context we're talking about. I do disagree with "off game" contributions. IQ is a good player, there's no question about that, but when he's off he's practically invisible. Shead provides about the same level of playmaking when he's off. He just sucks at shooting even more that he always does.

But the on/off argument though... idk, this is why people want to see how much of a floor raiser Shead is with the starters. Is it consistent? Just outright dismissing that is foolhardy. Do extra minutes help Shead, or hurt him? IQ already gets the benefit of the doubt there.

What do you consider an off-night for IQ? Because in his five single-digit scoring games this season, he is averaging 6.2 AST (which is right in line with his season average) and 4.0 REB (which is right in line with his season average) while averaging 1.6 TOV (which is right in line with his season average). Prior to the past few games when IQ has been playing much more off the ball and only totaled 3 AST, he has consistently been in the 5-7 AST range while giving us 15-20 PTS more often than not. You're downplaying his off-game contributions while exaggerating how impactful Shead has been on his off nights...which is also a silly point to make when the majority of Shead's games could be considered off-nights as he has shot below 40% from the field in more than half of our games.

You're also missing the point that they're at different points in their career and I'm not downplaying IQ at all and think he's a valuable member of the team who makes positive contributions? Was pretty clear about that, preference for one over the other with a gun to my head. But see above.

No one is missing the point that they are at different points of the career and that is entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand — which is “who is the better PG for us now?”

I’m a big fan of Shead and his impact off the bench — despite barely being able to do anything at the offensive end at an even average NBA level — is impressive, but it’s his defence and hustle that keeps him out there right now. The playmaking is certainly encouraging and a bonus, but it has been trending down lately (5.6 AST with a 4.6 AST/TO ratio in the first 28 games VS 4.7 AST with a 2.9 AST/TO ratio in the last 10 games). It’s no surprise that his impact has been noticeably less over the past few weeks when his playmaking has taken a bit of a hit — and that is the point that I and others have made multiple times. He still needs to drastically improve to be at a point where we can even consider him taking IQ’s spot. In the meantime, he is a nice change of pace and the two of them play very well together.

[tsherkin]

I did. I don’t think that’s a viable solution to our issue at all lol.

...

You can’t rely on rim pressure from the bench guys, that’s utterly silly. We need it from our starters.

So, we have rim pressure in our starting lineup. We have none in our bench lineup, which is a larger issue. If we had a 15-20 mpg guy coming in at the 2/3 who could maintain that rim pressure, that would no longer be an issue.

It's going to be hard to find someone we can play at the 1 who is worthwhile in that regard. Small guys aren't generally it for that style of play. So we are, in essence, looking for a combo guard-sized player who can defend reasonably well, shoot reasonably well from outside and then also attack with a live dribble. That's basically what you're talking about, and those are neither common. Nor cheap.

EDIT: Because otherwise, you're really just saying what I did, that we need a SG. And since we already have RJ, this new guy isn't likely to start.

We could always shoot for the moon and get some rim pressure from the C spot in Giannis.

I too enjoy random flights of fancy, heheh.

[Merit]

You only value shead more bc of contract. Which is understandable considering you're close to the tax and gotta pay Mamu and Shead.

But IQ is underrated. Not everyone can be a star on a team with BI, Scottie and RJ. He plays a role. Good assist to turnover guy. Shoots the 3. Plays defence. Most PGs dont. Good rebounder for a PG. Plays w 3 20 point scores and still gets 16 a night.

Iq is def underrated but his defense is just average compared to shead’s. I like iq. I just like him more as a trade chip. Then again if we only make a small move I would be okay with it too. We are primarily in need of a backup big and have one too many wings. Maybe a trade with a team like Dallas for Lively, Russell and Powell for Ochai, Gradey, Mogbo and Temple.

[YogurtProducer]

You only value shead more bc of contract. Which is understandable considering you're close to the tax and gotta pay Mamu and Shead.

But IQ is underrated. Not everyone can be a star on a team with BI, Scottie and RJ. He plays a role. Good assist to turnover guy. Shoots the 3. Plays defence. Most PGs dont. Good rebounder for a PG. Plays w 3 20 point scores and still gets 16 a night.

Iq is def underrated but his defense is just average compared to shead’s. I like iq. I just like him more as a trade chip. Then again if we only make a small move I would be okay with it too. We are primarily in need of a backup big and have one too many wings. Maybe a trade with a team like Dallas for Lively, Russell and Powell for Ochai, Gradey, Mogbo and Temple.

I mean sure, but Shead is also a great defender, almost every PG looks average compared to him on the defensive end.

[MEDIC]

I think most people that aren't big on IQ simply want something different from a PG.

They want a PG that can attack his man off the dribble & shift the defense in doing so (creating plays for others). This is especially needed when plays break down & we have nothing going on, or when the team's 1/2 court offense is struggling . They also want improved on ball defense.

It's simply preference........and that's OK. Everyone has an opinion about what they want from each position on the floor.

If IQ was a 6'6" high volume shooter, I think most people would be happy. I still think people wouldn't like the contract though.

Like Eastcoast said...........criticisms of IQ aren't really criticisms of the player. He has valuable skills. More than anything, the criticism is of Bobby and Masai.

[MEDIC]

I feel the same way. Like I keep saying, I liked the Davion/ Jamal pairing a lot more than I like the Imanuel/ Jamal pairing.

The Davion / Shead pairing was not a feasible long term option. You cant have 48 minutes of PG play from non-shooting threats

I think IQ is more skilled as a scorer right now. Jamal has higher basketball IQ, is more athletic & a much better defender. I actually think Jamal has the higher ceiling between the two.

Unless Shead magically becomes a high volume 3 point shooter, that simply isn't the case. Shead is a much better defender when he is a bench guy playing 18mpg, but don't forget IQ was labeled as a great defender to in NYK. The difference between the two defensively isn't huge. It is just natural when guys get more minute and offensive responsibility the defence drops. Same thing would happen to Shead if he played 32mpg.

Jamal still only has 1 year of NBA experience & is 23 years old. He is shooting better than Lowry was at the same age & his assist numbera are a lot better than Lowry's were at 23 years old. Lowry had been in the league for 3+ years at that point. I am really interested in seeing where Shead's game is at in 2-3 years (he will be about the same age as Lowry when he was traded here).

Comparing the 2026 era where Shead has been developing in the 3point climate and 2008 era where Lowry was never encouraged to shoot 3's is not the same thing.

I think he will figure out the shooting......the guy is a worker.

Sure. But this is a 4-year college player who is in his 2nd NBA season. It has been 6 years of high level development to figure out his shot and it never happened. Here is his shooting splits:
FR - 12.5% (barely played)
SO - 29.8%
JR - 31.0%
SR - 30.9%
ROOK - 32.3%
SOPH - 33.1%

He is more than likely going to be a bad shooter for the rest of his career.

Another poster brought this name up in another thread & his is a perfect comp. Jose Alverado.

23 year old rookie. Fiesty & undersized. Couldn't shoot his first 2 seasons in the league, but figured it out at 25 years old.

Shot .322 overall in his first 2 years in the league.

Shot .377 in his 3rd season at 25 years old. Last 3 seasons, a combined .365. That's a pretty big jump.

Shead's is actually shooting better than Alverado at 23 years old.

[Los_29]

I think most people that aren't big on IQ simply want something different from a PG.

They want a PG that can attack his man off the dribble & shift the defense in doing so (creating plays for others). This is especially needed when plays break down & we have nothing going on, or when the team's 1/2 court offense is struggling . They also want improved on ball defense.

It's simply preference........and that's OK. Everyone has an opinion about what they want from each position on the floor.

If IQ was a 6'6" high volume shooter, I think most people would be happy. I still think people wouldn't like the contract though.

Like Eastcoast said...........criticisms of IQ aren't really criticisms of the player. He has valuable skills. More than anything, the criticism is of Bobby and Masai.

That’s fine but then we just create other problems (lack of shooting, spacing etc.). These are critically important in meaningful games. We saw it in the playoffs last year.

The other issue is Shead isn’t a comparable player, he’s far inferior to IQ. And that’s what this discussion is about.

IQ is perfect for this team. I have no doubt he is going to get his shot going.

[Raps in 4]

The fact that a player with a sub-50% TS% is winning this poll is wild.