Butler has requested a trade, the saga continues

[Nick K]

Which we would have, when it was legal at the end of this season.

The luxury tax is not preventing Jimmy from being paid now. It’s the CBA Rule that requires you be under the SALARY CAP to renegotiate a contract mid-season.

Ah, I see. could we not have done this this summer or even September?

To give Jimmy a $30 mil mid season renegotiation, we’d have to be $30 mil under the salary cap.

We are $25 mil over the cap (including Jimmy’s $20 mil), so we’d have had to find a way to remove another $35 mil in straight cap space. The only real way to have done this would have been to never use our cap space the year before on Teague, Taj and Crawford. If Jimmy said he wanted to do this last July, he was still a year too late.

Well explained. Thanks.

Obviously Thibs wasn't thinking or knew as much about the cap as I do when he made the Butler trade and Teague, Gibson acquisitions.

[MN7725]

Ah, I see. could we not have done this this summer or even September?

To give Jimmy a $30 mil mid season renegotiation, we’d have to be $30 mil under the salary cap.

Well, $10M under the cap as I understand it. He was already $20M there.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you that it wasn't possible in September.
It would've had to be done at the start of summer. Jimmy wasn't being reasonable in his request.

I think it was less than that, about $5 mil in cap space was needed (still would have been difficult to get)

Butler's max in this renegotiation scenario would have only been about $24-25 mil for this season, up from his $20 mil this year since the salary can only be bumped by 120% for the first year of the extension, and then the 8 percent raises through 2022-23

This would end up being about a 5 yr $145 mil contract, still less than Wig/KAT extensions

[TruthSerum]

To give Jimmy a $30 mil mid season renegotiation, we’d have to be $30 mil under the salary cap.

Well, $10M under the cap as I understand it. He was already $20M there.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you that it wasn't possible in September.
It would've had to be done at the start of summer. Jimmy wasn't being reasonable in his request.

I think it was less than that, about $5 mil in cap space was needed (still would have been difficult to get)

Butler's max in this renegotiation scenario would have only been about $24-25 mil for this season, up from his $20 mil this year since the salary can only be bumped by 120% for the first year of the extension, and then the 8 percent raises through 2022-23

This would end up being about a 5 yr $145 mil contract, still less than Wig/KAT extensions

The story I read in 'The Athletic' was a renegotiation to $30M this season and $4yrs/145M after.
Would've been a good deal for both sides if addressed at the beginning of summer. IMO

[MN7725]

Well, $10M under the cap as I understand it. He was already $20M there.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you that it wasn't possible in September.
It would've had to be done at the start of summer. Jimmy wasn't being reasonable in his request.

I think it was less than that, about $5 mil in cap space was needed (still would have been difficult to get)

Butler's max in this renegotiation scenario would have only been about $24-25 mil for this season, up from his $20 mil this year since the salary can only be bumped by 120% for the first year of the extension, and then the 8 percent raises through 2022-23

This would end up being about a 5 yr $145 mil contract, still less than Wig/KAT extensions

The story I read in 'The Athletic' was a renegotiation to $30M this season and $4yrs/145M after.
Would've been a good deal for both sides if addressed at the beginning of summer. IMO

Ok, thats probably correct then

Gets the contract much closer to what Butler could have received next offseason

This last summer was pretty much the worst offseason to try to clear space

[TruthSerum]

I think it was less than that, about $5 mil in cap space was needed (still would have been difficult to get)

Butler's max in this renegotiation scenario would have only been about $24-25 mil for this season, up from his $20 mil this year since the salary can only be bumped by 120% for the first year of the extension, and then the 8 percent raises through 2022-23

This would end up being about a 5 yr $145 mil contract, still less than Wig/KAT extensions

The story I read in 'The Athletic' was a renegotiation to $30M this season and $4yrs/145M after.
Would've been a good deal for both sides if addressed at the beginning of summer. IMO

Ok, thats probably correct then

Gets the contract much closer to what Butler could have received next offseason

This last summer was pretty much the worst offseason to try to clear space

This is true. JC made it a little easier by walking away, but major moves would've had to been made to get below.

[Reddy83]

How do you balance this position with his success in these areas owning the Lynx?

That's a really good question. To be honest, I don't really follow the WNBA and won't act as though I do. I am someone who follows business and understand Taylor's successes there, however it doesn't invalidate his record with the Timberwolves.

Do you think he was behind the success of the Lynx? Genuine question. I find it hard to believe. More likely that they have a good coach and an immense amount of talent in Augustus, Moore, Whalen, etc. but again it's not something I really know.

I think that it’s extremely hard for consistent success in professional sports at any level. Injuries can’s be predicted. Determining which prospects will become superstars and which will be mediocre or bust has an element of luck. We want to believe a good front office can pick the future stars out, but it often is up to the athlete to truly become a franchise player. A coach or front office can’t do it for him.

I may have lower expectations for an owner. I don’t think the owner establishes culture, that that comes more from the coach. Iowa nt my owner to do a couple things:

1. Don’t move the franchise
2. Open the checkbook when warranted
3. Make good hiring choices
4. Don’t meddle
5. If you’ve given a guy the resources and he fails repeatedly, be willing to fire the guy

I’m ok with Taylor on 1 and 2. His hiring choices haven’t been bad at the time, except maybe Rambis, but most haven’t worked out. Taylor talks too much (which I like as a fan), but he doesn’t usual meddle. I think he gives people too long a leash though, which seems funny to say considering all the coaching and personnel turnover.

The success the Lynx have had has been historic, and I give a lot of credit to Cheryl Reeve. However, we can’t blame Taylor’s style for the failures of the Wolves, and then say he doesn’t get credit for the Lynx.

I'm not stating anything about his style or success with other organizations. I do understand you're counterpoint that you can't make blanket statements about him understanding culture given other success in business and with the Lynx, so I'll cede that the all or nothing proclamation is perhaps not completely true.

I also agree success in professional sports is very hard and my level of expectation is NOT playoffs every year, etc. It'd be great to be the spurs, but not everyone can be.

I do expect the typical cycle of rebuilding and drafting young players and eventually competitive level of play. That's what we cheer for. The problem is that we have consistently failed to capitalize on the MANY opportunities we've had with world class talent (or opportunities to acquire it). The draft misses, the Joe Smith deal, the ongoing middling signings for surrounding KG, the 13 year drought with a turnstile of coaches and approaches, the lack of consistency with the culture and business itself as a team to root for, to hope for, and now after all the time away from winning and an enormous amount of drafts, we have some very good talent but the team is in shambles. They've given up.

Yes, it's Thibs fault. But Thibs is Taylor's fault. Yes the players need to play harder, but there's a reason they hate the culture.

Fish rots from the head.

[minimus]

The consensus view around the league is it's about the money. Jimmy said it's about money. Or rather, he said its about respect and being wanted, which just happens to be getting paid appropriately for what he brings to the table as the best player in a wolves uniform. So again, it's about the money that Glen has refused to offer him.

1) Please, read article and imagine what should have MIN done to financially accomplish Butler requirements.
2) Why Thibs did not trade Butler at draft night? Just like any good GM in NBA?

1) I've already commented on how Jimmy's request was a nonstarter because they would've had to gut the team (in september) to find enough cap space to renegotiate per the CBA.

2) Because Thibs isn't clairvoyant and your own article says Jimmy requested the renegotiation mere weeks before requesting the trade in September. Remember they offered Jimmy a 4-year deal that he turned down in July, as expected due to the pay scale. It was very cordial as I recall.

Thibs isn't clairvoyant. He is deaf and blind. First rumours about issues in our locker room came out right after season end. Thibs knew this. Thibs did not do anything, that is why Jimmy had to force this situation.

[PharmD]

The story I read in 'The Athletic' was a renegotiation to $30M this season and $4yrs/145M after.
Would've been a good deal for both sides if addressed at the beginning of summer. IMO

Ok, thats probably correct then

Gets the contract much closer to what Butler could have received next offseason

This last summer was pretty much the worst offseason to try to clear space

This is true. JC made it a little easier by walking away, but major moves would've had to been made to get below.

To give Jimmy his $11M raise the Wolves would have had to cut $42.8M in salary from this year's team. Wiggins + Dieng + Tyus + Patton shipped out for only minimum salaries coming back would have done it. Of course, Jimmy wouldn't want that because he's all about winning and is only unable to get along with others because he cares too much.

[PharmD]

1) Please, read article and imagine what should have MIN done to financially accomplish Butler requirements.
2) Why Thibs did not trade Butler at draft night? Just like any good GM in NBA?

1) I've already commented on how Jimmy's request was a nonstarter because they would've had to gut the team (in september) to find enough cap space to renegotiate per the CBA.

2) Because Thibs isn't clairvoyant and your own article says Jimmy requested the renegotiation mere weeks before requesting the trade in September. Remember they offered Jimmy a 4-year deal that he turned down in July, as expected due to the pay scale. It was very cordial as I recall.

Thibs isn't clairvoyant. He is deaf and blind. First rumours about issues in our locker room came out right after season end. Thibs knew this. Thibs did not do anything, that is why Jimmy had to force this situation.

Jimmy refused to ride the team plane back after losing to Houston and did not set foot in Minnesota the entire offseason (refused his year end physical and exit interview with Thibs).

[minimus]

Ok, thats probably correct then

Gets the contract much closer to what Butler could have received next offseason

This last summer was pretty much the worst offseason to try to clear space

This is true. JC made it a little easier by walking away, but major moves would've had to been made to get below.

To give Jimmy his $11M raise the Wolves would have had to cut $42.8M in salary from this year's team. Wiggins + Dieng + Tyus + Patton shipped out for only minimum salaries coming back would have done it. Of course, Jimmy wouldn't want that because he's all about winning and is only unable to get along with others because he cares too much.

That is simple math, but fans ignore that

[minimus]

Let me say one more thing.

Jimmy Butler May not make sense for half the league, but picks are currency that every team will value. We need to get enough currency, (and if the final picks have little or no protection, I think that’s enough), but even if you want to keep winning, the picks give you trade assets that any team would put some value upon.

I agree. Even if in my opinion pick are overrated. Just think about it. We gave up Zach LaVine, Kris Dunn, No. 7 Pick for Butler.
How many of these 4 late FRPs become LaVine? Even with all development/scouting process SAS could not draft Manu Ginobili or Parker. So I agree with 100%, for me picks is more assets then sure value.

If I think Zach LaVine, Kris Dunn, No. 7 Pick for Butler it is clear for me that even return same value that Thibs gave it is almost impossible because we gave up #13, #5, #7 pick and I am sure that Morey won't make same mistake as Brooklyn did.

So once again: Vivat Thibs!

[TruthSerum]

Ok, thats probably correct then

Gets the contract much closer to what Butler could have received next offseason

This last summer was pretty much the worst offseason to try to clear space

This is true. JC made it a little easier by walking away, but major moves would've had to been made to get below.

To give Jimmy his $11M raise the Wolves would have had to cut $42.8M in salary from this year's team. Wiggins + Dieng + Tyus + Patton shipped out for only minimum salaries coming back would have done it. Of course, Jimmy wouldn't want that because he's all about winning and is only unable to get along with others because he cares too much.

Not sure I agree with that. We're only $20M over the cap right now. So without getting too technical, lets just call it $30M needing to be cut to make it happen when Jimmy requested the renegotiation right before training camp. That's just not happening. Timing was all wrong. But go back to the start of summer and it becomes more doable. Tolliver, Rose, Nunnally, and Deng count for $10M of the cap. Now the number is down $20M needing cut. That could be Teague (If a team would take him without returning any salary) and probably a cut and stretch of Patton to be safe. That's the absolute rosiest scenario. In all likelihood it would've been a dump of Wiggins, though. Glen would want to get those future cap projections down. My take.

[shrink]

Let me say one more thing.

Jimmy Butler May not make sense for half the league, but picks are currency that every team will value. We need to get enough currency, (and if the final picks have little or no protection, I think that’s enough), but even if you want to keep winning, the picks give you trade assets that any team would put some value upon.

I agree. Even if in my opinion pick are overrated. Just think about it. We gave up Zach LaVine, Kris Dunn, No. 7 Pick for Butler.
How many of these 4 late FRPs become LaVine? Even with all development/scouting process SAS could not draft Manu Ginobili or Parker. So I agree with 100%, for me picks is more assets then sure value.

If I think Zach LaVine, Kris Dunn, No. 7 Pick for Butler it is clear for me that even return same value that Thibs gave it is almost impossible because we gave up #13, #5, #7 pick and I am sure that Morey won't make same mistake as Brooklyn did.

So once again: Vivat Thibs!

We should not get back the value of LaVine, Dunn and pick swap, because CHI was selling two years of Butler under contract and we are selling one year.

[PharmD]

This is true. JC made it a little easier by walking away, but major moves would've had to been made to get below.

To give Jimmy his $11M raise the Wolves would have had to cut $42.8M in salary from this year's team. Wiggins + Dieng + Tyus + Patton shipped out for only minimum salaries coming back would have done it. Of course, Jimmy wouldn't want that because he's all about winning and is only unable to get along with others because he cares too much.

Not sure I agree with that. We're only $20M over the cap right now. So without getting too technical, lets just call it $30M needing to be cut to make it happen when Jimmy requested the renegotiation right before training camp. That's just not happening. Timing was all wrong. But go back to the start of summer and it becomes more doable. Tolliver, Rose, Nunnally, and Deng count for $10M of the cap. Now the number is down $20M needing cut. That could be Teague (If a team would take him without returning any salary) and probably a cut and stretch of Patton to be safe. That's the absolute rosiest scenario. In all likelihood it would've been a dump of Wiggins, though. Glen would want to get those future cap projections down. My take.

None of Tolliver, Rose, Nunnally, or Deng count against the cap at all. If you remove minimum guys you just get a roster hold equal to a minimum salary. And Tolliver is the MLE.

The Wolves are 31,784,631 over the cap right now.

[KG_Wolves]

I hope this is sarcasm.

The only chance we have of even making the playoffs is trading Butler and firing Thibs immediately. Otherwise I see almost no way this team makes the playoffs, let alone #2 seed.

Nope, not sarcasm.

But saying a Jimmy-less team is capable of doing anything but get a top 5 lottery pick is a joke though

Are you seeing what the Jimmy led wolves will be like yet?

Like I said, 0% chance of making the playoffs with the cancer on the team. Nearly 0% if Butler was traded today and Thibs remained as the coach. The only chance we would have is a full Thibs/Butler removal combined with getting a contributing piece.

I still believe in the 2nd seed, Houston is trash

The team that nearly beat San Antonio on opening night is the real team.

[AirP.]

To give Jimmy his $11M raise the Wolves would have had to cut $42.8M in salary from this year's team. Wiggins + Dieng + Tyus + Patton shipped out for only minimum salaries coming back would have done it. Of course, Jimmy wouldn't want that because he's all about winning and is only unable to get along with others because he cares too much.

Not sure I agree with that. We're only $20M over the cap right now. So without getting too technical, lets just call it $30M needing to be cut to make it happen when Jimmy requested the renegotiation right before training camp. That's just not happening. Timing was all wrong. But go back to the start of summer and it becomes more doable. Tolliver, Rose, Nunnally, and Deng count for $10M of the cap. Now the number is down $20M needing cut. That could be Teague (If a team would take him without returning any salary) and probably a cut and stretch of Patton to be safe. That's the absolute rosiest scenario. In all likelihood it would've been a dump of Wiggins, though. Glen would want to get those future cap projections down. My take.

None of Tolliver, Rose, Nunnally, or Deng count against the cap at all. If you remove minimum guys you just get a roster hold equal to a minimum salary. And Tolliver is the MLE.

The Wolves are 31,784,631 over the cap right now.

Right, Minnesota would have had to gut the roster. What's kind of out there, long term it would have made sense to renegotiate with Butler this offseason to take away one of those mid 30s seasons off his contract.

There were multiple things that happened last offseason that made it extremely hard to renegotiate with Butler.
1. Taylor giving Wiggins a max contract a year early instead of saving 3-5 million on the cap(letting Butler renegotiate before signing Wiggins this off season).
2. Thibs adding Teague and Gibson for 2+ seasons.
3. Not moving Dieng's contract.

If the playoffs weren't such a priority last year, it would have been possible to take resign Butler long term, have Wiggins and Towns also signed long term, keep Tyus, keep Rose on the minimum(last season nobody knew he'd be with Minnesota now), signed Tolliver and also have drafted Okogie and KBD.

So... Tyus/Rose, Butler, Wiggins, Tolliver, Towns with a bench of Rose/Tyus, Okogie, ?, Patton(but he's still out as of now) but you'd have your 3 max guys locked up long term and hope to find some cheap gems in FA or the draft. That's a decent 8 man rotation, toss in Deng and Nunnally and that's a good rotation overall, but there's really no way for the team to add talent other then internal development and possibly getting lucky in the draft.

What I think Thibs did was play chicken(which he still is doing), ignoring Butler because Thibs would give him the money, signing the FAs when he could last year, not gutting the roster for Butler 1 year early and expecting all the extra money Minnesota can give him be a reason for Butler to stay. I do wonder if Butler's side has heard or just believes that Minnesota won't pay him next summer, if that's the case that's why everything is so bad. I doubt Thibs gave him any indication he wouldn't pay him, so either Jimmy's people have came up with this on their own or Taylor has indicated he might not do it.

I do think it's a power play overall by Thibs(and sure, Butler could end up walking taking ~40 million less), but Taylor buckling on the trade request really hurt Thib's position. All that really needed to be done is for Taylor to address next summer's situation just mentioning that per the CBA, Minnesota holds certain financial advantages when trying to retain players. If Butler still was forcing out, it would no longer be about money and he'd have to answer to that.

[TruthSerum]

To give Jimmy his $11M raise the Wolves would have had to cut $42.8M in salary from this year's team. Wiggins + Dieng + Tyus + Patton shipped out for only minimum salaries coming back would have done it. Of course, Jimmy wouldn't want that because he's all about winning and is only unable to get along with others because he cares too much.

Not sure I agree with that. We're only $20M over the cap right now. So without getting too technical, lets just call it $30M needing to be cut to make it happen when Jimmy requested the renegotiation right before training camp. That's just not happening. Timing was all wrong. But go back to the start of summer and it becomes more doable. Tolliver, Rose, Nunnally, and Deng count for $10M of the cap. Now the number is down $20M needing cut. That could be Teague (If a team would take him without returning any salary) and probably a cut and stretch of Patton to be safe. That's the absolute rosiest scenario. In all likelihood it would've been a dump of Wiggins, though. Glen would want to get those future cap projections down. My take.

None of Tolliver, Rose, Nunnally, or Deng count against the cap at all. If you remove minimum guys you just get a roster hold equal to a minimum salary. And Tolliver is the MLE.

The Wolves are 31,784,631 over the cap right now.

They all count against the cap. Cap holds also count against the cap. I wasn't trying to get super specific about this stuff. Something like the non-taxpayer MLE would've had to get renounced for the room MLE. And you're right that a couple cap holds would've been there for empty roster spots below 12. So I was just getting in the ballpark but clearly not completely there. But the wolves are certainly not $32M over the cap right now. That is incorrect. It would shoot right past the hard cap of $129,733,000 -- for instance. The current league salary cap is $102M. The wolves are currently under the luxury tax threshold of $123,733,000. Their current taxable salaries are $122,204,319.
I use spotrac. Hope this helps!

[TruthSerum]

Not sure I agree with that. We're only $20M over the cap right now. So without getting too technical, lets just call it $30M needing to be cut to make it happen when Jimmy requested the renegotiation right before training camp. That's just not happening. Timing was all wrong. But go back to the start of summer and it becomes more doable. Tolliver, Rose, Nunnally, and Deng count for $10M of the cap. Now the number is down $20M needing cut. That could be Teague (If a team would take him without returning any salary) and probably a cut and stretch of Patton to be safe. That's the absolute rosiest scenario. In all likelihood it would've been a dump of Wiggins, though. Glen would want to get those future cap projections down. My take.

None of Tolliver, Rose, Nunnally, or Deng count against the cap at all. If you remove minimum guys you just get a roster hold equal to a minimum salary. And Tolliver is the MLE.

The Wolves are 31,784,631 over the cap right now.

Right, Minnesota would have had to gut the roster. What's kind of out there, long term it would have made sense to renegotiate with Butler this offseason to take away one of those mid 30s seasons off his contract.

There were multiple things that happened last offseason that made it extremely hard to renegotiate with Butler.
1. Taylor giving Wiggins a max contract a year early instead of saving 3-5 million on the cap(letting Butler renegotiate before signing Wiggins this off season).
2. Thibs adding Teague and Gibson for 2+ seasons.
3. Not moving Dieng's contract.

I actually wondered about that, AirP. And there was a very significant reason while Jimmy himself wasn't interested in renegotiating his contract right when he got traded to Minny. It was money, and lots of it. With only 6 years of service in the league, Jimmy was only entitled to 25% of the salary cap. A cap of $94M. With another year under his belt, he was now entitled to 30% of a $102M salary cap. Add those 7.5% increases over 5 years and you're talking some serious money.

[shrink]

None of Tolliver, Rose, Nunnally, or Deng count against the cap at all. If you remove minimum guys you just get a roster hold equal to a minimum salary. And Tolliver is the MLE.

The Wolves are 31,784,631 over the cap right now.

Right, Minnesota would have had to gut the roster. What's kind of out there, long term it would have made sense to renegotiate with Butler this offseason to take away one of those mid 30s seasons off his contract.

There were multiple things that happened last offseason that made it extremely hard to renegotiate with Butler.
1. Taylor giving Wiggins a max contract a year early instead of saving 3-5 million on the cap(letting Butler renegotiate before signing Wiggins this off season).
2. Thibs adding Teague and Gibson for 2+ seasons.
3. Not moving Dieng's contract.

I actually wondered about that, AirP. And there was a very significant reason while Jimmy himself wasn't interested in renegotiating his contract right when he got traded to Minny. It was money, and lots of it.

Umm, here’s a significant reason. It would have been illegal under the CBA, until Butler had been on his contract for three years?

59. Can existing contracts be renegotiated?

A contract for four or more seasons can be renegotiated after the third anniversary of its signing

[Nick K]

1) I've already commented on how Jimmy's request was a nonstarter because they would've had to gut the team (in september) to find enough cap space to renegotiate per the CBA.

2) Because Thibs isn't clairvoyant and your own article says Jimmy requested the renegotiation mere weeks before requesting the trade in September. Remember they offered Jimmy a 4-year deal that he turned down in July, as expected due to the pay scale. It was very cordial as I recall.

Thibs isn't clairvoyant. He is deaf and blind. First rumours about issues in our locker room came out right after season end. Thibs knew this. Thibs did not do anything, that is why Jimmy had to force this situation.

Jimmy refused to ride the team plane back after losing to Houston and did not set foot in Minnesota the entire offseason (refused his year end physical and exit interview with Thibs).

WOW! What a total dick. I have no respect for him.