2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

[deezerweeze]

Harden's style of play makes his teammates better and he empowers everyone on the team on the court. Everyone on that team is playing at his optimal level and Harden is doing a perfect job to make sure that is happening on the team. Westbrook's style of play doesn't allow for proper team ball based system. His inability to play off-ball hurts him big time. He tries to do everything on offense which doesn't empower his teammates as much as he should. Even if he was on the Rockets, the players around him won't be optimized like Harden is doing with them atm. This is why Harden is the MVP. His style of play is just better at optimizing players around him. He is more efficient, smarter and easier to play with. That said, one can argue that Westbrook is a better floor raiser than Harden but sure as hell he isn't the better ceiling raiser than Harden. I would take 17 Harden to build a contender around everytime.

I thought this was bs until watching Harden and the Rockets last year vs this year, not letting your teammates, no matter how offensively challenged they are, do things with the ball hurts your team on both ends.

This doesn't much make sense at all.

Harden is MORE ball-dominant than Westbrook is.
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G&TeamID=1610612745
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G&TeamID=1610612760

Harden is also far more ball-dominant now than he was in 2016 or 2015 yet the 17 Rockets are far better this season.

http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G&TeamID=1610612745
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G&TeamID=1610612745

It's funny how quickly the narratives change.

[K_chile22]

Harden's style of play makes his teammates better and he empowers everyone on the team on the court. Everyone on that team is playing at his optimal level and Harden is doing a perfect job to make sure that is happening on the team. Westbrook's style of play doesn't allow for proper team ball based system. His inability to play off-ball hurts him big time. He tries to do everything on offense which doesn't empower his teammates as much as he should. Even if he was on the Rockets, the players around him won't be optimized like Harden is doing with them atm. This is why Harden is the MVP. His style of play is just better at optimizing players around him. He is more efficient, smarter and easier to play with. That said, one can argue that Westbrook is a better floor raiser than Harden but sure as hell he isn't the better ceiling raiser than Harden. I would take 17 Harden to build a contender around everytime.

I thought this was bs until watching Harden and the Rockets last year vs this year, not letting your teammates, no matter how offensively challenged they are, do things with the ball hurts your team on both ends.

This doesn't much make sense at all.

Harden is MORE ball-dominant than Westbrook is.
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G&TeamID=1610612745
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G&TeamID=1610612760

Harden is also far more ball-dominant now than he was in 2016 or 2015 yet the 17 Rockets are far better this season.

http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G&TeamID=1610612745
http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G&TeamID=1610612745

It's funny how quickly the narratives change.

There's a difference between holding the ball and letting other guys do things with the ball. Harden has possessions where he absolutely dribbles the air out of it, but while he's on the floor Beverley, EG, Lou, Ryno even Ariza (though I wish he didn't) get opportunities to make plays for themselves, and run PnR (except ryno). When Russ is on the court he uses nearly half of their possessions. His usage rate is over 3% higher than the all time record, and 7.5%, which is absolutely bonkers, higher than Hardens. Maybe Harden holds it a little longer on average, but his usage doesn't really come close to Russ'.

[Greatness]

Harden has pulled away and I don't think anyone else is particularly close at this point.

[Impuniti]

Harden has pulled away and I don't think anyone else is particularly close at this point.

[Johnny Firpo]

Harden has pulled away and I don't think anyone else is particularly close at this point.

Yep, his March is bonkers. He has to be close to 70%TS in this month, but definitely 65%. Crazy efficient.

[Jurassic_Park]

Harden has pulled away and I don't think anyone else is particularly close at this point.

exactly my thoughts. The race was fun while it lasted. Look forward to the playoffs now.

[K_chile22]

Harden has pulled away and I don't think anyone else is particularly close at this point.

I hope, but it's too close for this race to be decided quite this early imo

[bmurph128]

Yea I think the only one that can catch Harden now is Steph. And the Warriors will be crushing the Rockets twice here coming up, so he has a shot.

How often has a guy who isn't even a top 5 player in the NBA won MVP?

Steve Nash...and who was his coach...interesting.

[K_chile22]

Yea I think the only one that can catch Harden now is Steph. And the Warriors will be crushing the Rockets twice here coming up, so he has a shot.

How often has a guy who isn't even a top 5 player in the NBA won MVP?

Steve Nash...and who was his coach...interesting.

This season it's very hard to have Harden outside your top 5. He's been just every bit as good as anyone this year. In an absolute top 5, not solely based on this seasons results (which is what the MVP is supposed to be) he's anywhere from 4-6 with Kawhi and RW.

And people trying to say the MVP season is because of D'Antoni must not have very long memories. Harden had an MVP caliber season with freaking Kevin McHale as their coach.
Seemed like Kevin McHale just drew up pictures of kitties instead of plays during timeouts

[michaelm]

Yea I think the only one that can catch Harden now is Steph. And the Warriors will be crushing the Rockets twice here coming up, so he has a shot.

How often has a guy who isn't even a top 5 player in the NBA won MVP?

Steve Nash...and who was his coach...interesting.

I think both LeBron and Curry are still better players than Harden, but in the nature of things they won't get additional MVP awards this year and have been a little patchy thus far in the regular season anyway; I also suspect Harden will still put up good numbers in both forthcoming games even if GSW beat the Rockets twice.

I have no problem at all with Harden getting the MVP award, it will be well deserved if he continues his form and Houston stay where they are in the standings, which will mean they have greatly exceeded expectations with considerable input from Harden.

[ken6199]

Harden's style of play makes his teammates better and he empowers everyone on the team on the court. Everyone on that team is playing at his optimal level and Harden is doing a perfect job to make sure that is happening on the team. Westbrook's style of play doesn't allow for proper team ball based system. His inability to play off-ball hurts him big time. He tries to do everything on offense which doesn't empower his teammates as much as he should. Even if he was on the Rockets, the players around him won't be optimized like Harden is doing with them atm. This is why Harden is the MVP. His style of play is just better at optimizing players around him. He is more efficient, smarter and easier to play with. That said, one can argue that Westbrook is a better floor raiser than Harden but sure as hell he isn't the better ceiling raiser than Harden. I would take 17 Harden to build a contender around everytime.

The funny thing is, if you said any of that before this season people would have laughed you off the internet.

Sure, folks that either:

- don't watch basketball
- only watched Harden last season

Harden was a disappointment last season. However, in 3 of his 5 seasons in Houston, he's carried teams further than they should have gone, considering the talent on the team. There is no way the 2015 team or this years team should have one of the best records in basketball.

Fact is, for all five seasons he is with us he has been carrying the team further than they should, including his first year where Houston finished at 8th with the youngest squad in the league projected as #27 seed pre-season.

However rather than 'he empowers everyone on the team on the court', he empowers them a lot more, given proper players and system built around him. 15-16, even 14-15 version of Harden cannot be compared to 16-17, and it's clearly reflected in the MVP race. Player wise, Anderson and Gordon are both having their career years this season, Ariza and Beverly pretty much maintained their play, and you have Brewer who was really the same thing, or maybe even worse than last year before getting traded. Coaching wise, if you associate Harden's performance through these 3 seasons with the coaching change, 17 > 15 > 16, MDA > McHale > Bickerstaff, that's pretty telling.

This team is ranked 2nd in offense and 14 in defense yet they have the top 3 record & SRS in the league. Given a proper rim protector like Noel, I believe they can go even further.

[Johnny Firpo]

Yea I think the only one that can catch Harden now is Steph. And the Warriors will be crushing the Rockets twice here coming up, so he has a shot.

How often has a guy who isn't even a top 5 player in the NBA won MVP?

Steve Nash...and who was his coach...interesting.

I would have Steph in my Top 5. Just saw some kind of +- the other day (don't remember what kind, but it wasn't RPM, rather some kind of adjusted stuff), and he was killing the league in it. Impact-wise, he is still top 5, I have no doubt about this. Or were you talking about Harden?

[Vator]

I must admit that I particularly enjoy the "non-biased" opinions of fans of teams that don't presently have players in the MVP conversation. Even when I don't agree with them and they seem to vary from week to week depending on which candidate is the "hottest." It is quite understandable that Thunder, Rockets, Spurs, Cavs, and Warriors fans will root for "their" guy when they've become emotionally invested and watch these outstanding players carry heavy burdens and lead their teams to victories more often than not. That is honestly one reason I've rarely taken part in this discussion. It's hard not to be biased. I've even posted in here trying to be objective and conceded at least once that Westbrook was in the lead. At the moment, I think it has swayed back to Harden.

The cool thing that I think a lot of people are not realizing is that both of these guys are doing something that most of us have NEVER seen before. Nobody has averaged a triple double for a season since Oscar Robertson. Guess what though? Nobody has averaged 29 points, 11 assists, and 8 rebounds a game either other than Oscar Robertson. Both of these stat lines are history in the making. One has a fancy name attached to it that we all take notice of, but what Harden is doing is also monumental.

[Tritodian]

Harden has pulled away and I don't think anyone else is particularly close at this point.

Yep, his March is bonkers. He has to be close to 70%TS in this month, but definitely 65%. Crazy efficient.

Harden this month :

32.8 PPG 7.7 RPG 10.7 APG

49.8 FG% 37.2 3PT%

58.5 eFG% 65.6 TS%

Yeah, it's pretty insane.

Yea I think the only one that can catch Harden now is Steph. And the Warriors will be crushing the Rockets twice here coming up, so he has a shot.

How often has a guy who isn't even a top 5 player in the NBA won MVP?

Steve Nash...and who was his coach...interesting.

Interesting how much damage one relative down year can do to your reputation.

Harden was voted as an MVP runner-up (and Players' Association MVP) back in 14-15 season, and was ranked as the 5th best player by ESPN. Was MDA coaching Harden then too?

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/13963434/nbarank-1-5

I just don't understand why some people keep writing off Harden as not being top 5. At least it's debatable between him, Westbrook, AD, and Kawhi.

After LeBron, KD, and Curry, top 4-7 players are pretty much on the same level. Actually, among those four players, Harden has the best career résumé in terms of All-NBA first team selections, MVP share, playoff success, etc.

[Goodfellaz]

Yea I think the only one that can catch Harden now is Steph. And the Warriors will be crushing the Rockets twice here coming up, so he has a shot.

How often has a guy who isn't even a top 5 player in the NBA won MVP?

Steve Nash...and who was his coach...interesting.

Not sure if you are a betting man or not, but if you really think curry has a shot, i'd suggest putting $50 on curry to win MVP.

He is currently listed at 45 to 1 to win the award on online sportsbooks. Harden on the other hand is listed at < 2 to 1 to win it.

[Impuniti]

After LeBron, KD, and Curry, top 4-7 players are pretty much on the same level. Actually, among those four players, Harden has the best career résumé in terms of All-NBA first team selections, MVP share, playoff success, etc.

This has been the rating for a good time now. Those 3 are just on another level to everyone else.

[Screwston]

After LeBron, KD, and Curry, top 4-7 players are pretty much on the same level. Actually, among those four players, Harden has the best career résumé in terms of All-NBA first team selections, MVP share, playoff success, etc.

This has been the rating for a good time now. Those 3 are just on another level to everyone else.

Curry is not up there this year

[Gil]

Harden, Westbrook & Kawhi are closer to Curry/Durant than they are to LeBron.

[Screwston]

LeBron n KD are on a different level, but not Curry. Curry is on the same level as WB, Harden, Kawhi, AD

[bmurph128]

Yea I think the only one that can catch Harden now is Steph. And the Warriors will be crushing the Rockets twice here coming up, so he has a shot.

How often has a guy who isn't even a top 5 player in the NBA won MVP?

Steve Nash...and who was his coach...interesting.

I would have Steph in my Top 5. Just saw some kind of +- the other day (don't remember what kind, but it wasn't RPM, rather some kind of adjusted stuff), and he was killing the league in it. Impact-wise, he is still top 5, I have no doubt about this. Or were you talking about Harden?

Harden.

I get that he's having a top 5 season, but typically the MVP is a player that fans can agree is a sure fire top 5 player - Harden and Westbrook would be a debate for that 5th spot.

There's no actual way to quantify this, but the MVP is usually a consensus top 5 player - and I think that's why we're discussing 5 candidates this year.