Around the NBA XI

[Slava]

Clippers essentially have found money in Reggie Jackson. Everyone was clamoring for him to get cut last season and yet, right now he’s their second option in the playoffs. It’s not unlike what Rondo did for us in the title run. Ironically, they went and traded for rondo for the same reason.

Lou hasn’t been half bad in Atlanta either.

[aaron_gray]

So I took a trip down memory lane, and looked at the first few drafts that I was old enough to follow essentially every player from 1-60. The first one was really the Kyrie draft, so here's a bunch of random thoughts:

Overarching thoughts:
-The wing guys who stuck it out in the league in the late 1st / early second were almost universally guys who shot 37%+ from 3 and 80%+ from the line. There are a few lanky defenders who couldn't shoot here and there like Roberson and Barton, but those became really uncommon as the years progressed
-The wing guys who didn't stick it out were almost universally the Jordan Clarkson, volume offense type guys, that scored 18 ppg on like 33% from 3 as their team's primary ball handler in college
-The 6'8 college center who transitioned to elbow jumper PF (think Adreian Payne) almost never worked out except for that one major exception. Remember when small ball four was still a term? These days the term is "traditional" or "old school" lol.

Thoughts by year:

2011: Kenneth Faried is 31, and is out of the league. Derrick Williams has been out of the league for a while. Styles change fast.

2013: Our boy Ryan Kelly is currently living it up in Japan. Kind of shocked he never got better at shooting, though I'll never forget MDA making RKelly, Nick Young, and Jodie Meeks look like gods.

2014: Doug McDermott is still in the league, and has had a pretty long career. I haven't watched him enough to know how he is on defense, but his advanced stats are shockingly mediocre for his true shooting (at his volume). But you'd probably still rather have him than Jabari Parker right now. Another one of those drafts where the back end of the lottery produced more real nba players than the front end.

What's really crazy from this draft IMO, is Jerami Grant, who I honestly did not think would be the better Grant brother. The guy stuck it out in the league as a pure defender with almost no offensive output at first, and just kept adding skills, especially later in his career.

This isn't like Kawhi, who arguably had a team with massive incentive and gave him structured opportunities to develop into a franchise player since he joined the league. This isn't even a Jimmy Butler or Draymond Green, where they were more just underappreciated initially but grew into bigger roles very early in their careers. Grant legit didn't have much skill coming out of college, and was never supposed to be more than a 3 and D guy at best.

He just kept adding skills. He learned to shoot at OKC, carried it over to Denver, and did what he did this year. Obviously he moved to a **** team for a chance to be a franchise player, but I feel like it's just unheard of for a role player, in his 7th season, to make a 10 point leap in per 36 scoring. It's also not just his shooting; you can watch his growth in how he attacks the basket in terms of sudden changes of pace, body control through contact, and attacking with both his length and floaters. His dribbling still looks a little stiff and unnatural and he doesn't score well from p/r or from pull up 3s, but man, you would bet on this guy to improve both.

Honestly if I'm the Morey, Grant is my second choice trade target for Ben Simmons. His 3 pt % obviously dipped especially towards the end of the year, but I feel like his FT improvement is enough for you to believe that Grant can give you 18 a game on 60% TS with elite defense. He was actually around 60% TS for the last 3 seasons prior to joining Detroit.

[ROballer]

The Pistons are getting Cade in the draft so I don't think they're interested in Simmons.
Either way, I think Philly think they can do better than just Grant. They'll at least asking for Bey/Hayes in return as well.
And even then I don't know if they'd be satisfied.


Most likely scenario is GSW imo. I see GSW wanting to pair Green and Simmons together in the frontcourt. GSW is the one team perfectly content with Simmons not shooting when Klay returns, him and Curry + another shooter in the lineup is more than enough. Considering the defense and playmaking they'd get out of those two.


I see Wiggins+Wiseman+ one lottery pick being offered(Philly would probably ask for both but settle with #6), the other one being used to address the missing link in the starting lineup, possibly Corey Kispert if it's #14. The Warriors don't have the luxury to add a freshman and wait it out, they'll need somebody to contribute right away and Kispert's shooting is immediately translatable.

[aaron_gray]

Grant's prime doesn't really line up with the rest of Detroit's core. If they can get a pure talent play, my guess is they probably do it.

Draymond doesn't really shoot well enough from 3 to be able to play with Simmons, which is part of the reason why you really maximize Draymond when you play him with 4 shooters. I also don't think a team with serious playoff aspirations is going to trade for Simmons, which is why McCollum probably doesn't work either (McCollum is also probably too much of a liability to play with Seth Curry).

More so than Lavine, I would rather have Grant just because they won't have an elite perimeter defender once Danny Green leaves (save for hoping that Thybulle can shoot).

My first choice trade, if they can make the salaries work somehow, is Simmons + Hill + Something for Buddy Hield and Harrison Barnes and just go all in.

[ROballer]

Green plays with Looney/Wiseman enough of the time. Wiseman can shoot it a little bit but still nowhere near enough to consider him a "shooter". Very few teams can get away with having 4 shooters on the floor and not being abused on D, so that the coaches actually stick with that lineup.

I think a Curry/Thompson/Kispert/Simmons/Green lineup is deadly. Simmons is an elite finisher at the rim, he refuses to shoot but can thrive with lobs/easy looks generated by the other threats on the floor. He won't ever be an elite 3 level scorer but he'll get his 15-16 garbage points regardless.

You have two defensive player of the year candidates and one heck of a defender in Thompson there, elite shooting from 3 positions and two elite playmakers who can take turns setting the table for them. There's no way it won't work, only Klay's health is a concern.
If he can stay healthy I have no worries about his level of play. Two devastating injuries but his game is not reliant at all on athleticism, think he'll be at least 90% of his former self if not more if he can play.


I'm almost convinced the Warriors will make a play for him. Probably after they'll try their luck with 3-4 all star caliber player first, but at some point if they can't get their guy they'll probably make a play for Simmons. He's the one guy they know will be on the table.

[mcscotty]

It's ironic the team that ushered in the 3-point era is bringing back conventional basketball.

[aaron_gray]

Part of me almost wishes that the Lakers could send Kuzma to NOL so that they can improve his shooting and allow him to live up to his potential. I have a strange nostalgia for all the dudes drafted in the pre-Lebron years, as well as certain vets like Uncle P.

Really, if you look at our picks post Kobe, it just makes Mitch / Ryan West look like gods.

A look at all the young guys since 2012:

2012: Bob Sacre - Stayed in the league for four seasons. I honestly thought he showed promise as a shot blocker when given the chance, and was pretty excited when it looked like he was adding an elbow jumper.

2013: RKelly, Bazemore, Marshon Brooks, Xavier Henry, Kendall Marshall - Drafted RKelly, traded for Baze/Brooks for Steve Blake and took a shot at Henry and Marshall. Bazemore was a towel boy when we traded for him - has since had a long career as a true 3&D starter. I still remember how annoying it was watching Kendall Marshall pass up open layups for contested threes to his teammates.

2014: Randle, Clarkson, Vander Blue, Jabari Brown, Tarik Black - Bought Clarkson's rights for cash. Randle is now a true franchise player (and now shoots 40% from 3 and 80% from the line!), and Clarkson is 6MoY. I actually also had high hopes for Black as a small ball shot blocker, but the guy was just a foul machine.

2015: DLo, Nance, Anthony Brown - We got Nance for taking on Jeremy Lin's contract. Man, I remember when he was drafted, we were all like "who tf is this" and comforted ourselves that the Spurs were allegedly interested in him. I'm not sure if he'll have a long-term starting role without learning how to shoot 3s, but his career so far has been better than the majority of lottery picks from that draft.

Man, this was a **** draft, literally just KAT and Booker as true franchise players (unless you count Myles Turner as a franchise player as well). Say what you want about DLo's defense, but his career turned out a lot better than Okafor's, who everyone though we would take with #2. Half of that lottery turned out to be non-NBA level players.

Also, remember da gawd Brandon Bass's elbow jumpers? Al Horford at home.

2016: BI, Zubac, Tyler Ennis, David Nwaba: BI is now a franchise player after fixing his shooting in NOL. Zubac is a starter on a contender as shot blocking p/r big.

I still have no idea what happened to Tyler Ennis. He was picked just outside the lottery and had flashed for Phoenix and Milwaukee as a true pass first point guard. We were all super hype to get him, and he shot well with us. He's out of the league now.

Nwaba is still in the league. It looked for a hot second like had fixed his shooting with the Nets, but his FT% gave away that his 40% from 3 was not sustainable.

2017: Lonzo, Kuz, Josh Hart, Thomas Bryant, Caruso - This was a ridiculous year in terms of adding young talent.

Lonzo has sinced fixed his shooting in NOL, and honestly will probably be an all-star at some point given his defense (his advanced stats are always ridiculous in part because he's such a great defender). Hart doesn't start but plays 30min a game for NOL, though his shooting hasn't seen the same improvement as BI and Lonzo (though his FT% has continuously ticked up, which means the 3pt improvement is likely coming soon).

Thomas Bryant, of all people, starts for the Wizards and is a stretch center who shoots 40% from 3. I have no idea if this will last given his FT%, and his rim protection never developed like I thought it would, but this is **** crazy.

Of course, we took a shot on the accountant, who honestly can have a very long nba career if can keep his shooting up. I remember when he first played for us, we talked a lot about nepotism and how he only got a shot at pro basketball because his dad was an associate AD at Texas A&M.

Caleb Swanigan from Purdue was the guy that everyone on the forum wanted to take with our late first, but he was taken like 2 spots ahead of our pick. Caruso has accomplished more in his career so far, and it will probably finish that way as well.

2018 (Ryan West's last year): Mo Wagner, Mykhailiuk - Mo looked like a real nba starter with the Magic. He actually started a bunch of games for Washington as well after the other ex-Laker Thomas Bryant went down, but both he and Mykhailiuk are going to be playing 20+ min in the league for a long time.


This guy drafted better than Hinkie, Morey, Presti, and arguably better than the Spurs as well. In terms of hit rate %, Masai is probably the next closest, and none of these guys drafted as frequently as West did. He found a starter / 6th man level player with every one of his late firsts, and never missed on a lottery pick. He also hit on a bunch of second round picks as well as D-League pick ups.

Honestly, breaking up that young core still makes me a little sad to this day, and it just makes you wonder what the Lakers could have been if they were a better organization (in terms of player development, especially shooting wise, finding a coach that could build a real defense, being more forward thinking and focusing on adding shooting + defense with vets, etc.). It's pretty cool seeing guys like Randle, BI, Clarkson, etc. truly live up to their potential, even if it's after leaving the organization.

[Slava]

I think the drafting and scouting network is still there. Randle mentioned Jesse Buss and Nick Mazella as the key guys on the Lakers who scouted him. Of course you’re going to have less draft capital once you go all in with Lebron James but even since Ryan West left, we’ve bought a pick and drafted THT, who’s gotten pretty rave reviews so far as a multi skilled wing.

For all the young talent the Lakers accumulated, it all served a purpose in getting Davis. Once you add Lebron and AD, everything else was a means to an end. The thing that stings is the brief period of dumb **** Magic did like letting Lopez go, trading Zubac for Muscala, signing Lance etc. Then Kawhi screwed us over by asking to open cap space, whereby we had to dump Wagner and Bonga, who could both be valuable rotation players. Yet, we made it out pretty well recognizing player development isn’t our strength and rather putting veteran professionals around Lebron.

[Pythagoras]

Dame is going to ask out this offseason, he’s just looking for cover to do it. It’s too bad the Lakers don’t have ANY assets to throw their hat in the ring, lol

[Jedi32]

we need a better offensive coach, so we can run sets when lebron sits.

[aaron_gray]

I think the drafting and scouting network is still there. Randle mentioned Jesse Buss and Nick Mazella as the key guys on the Lakers who scouted him. Of course you’re going to have less draft capital once you go all in with Lebron James but even since Ryan West left, we’ve bought a pick and drafted THT, who’s gotten pretty rave reviews so far as a multi skilled wing.

For all the young talent the Lakers accumulated, it all served a purpose in getting Davis. Once you add Lebron and AD, everything else was a means to an end. The thing that stings is the brief period of dumb **** Magic did like letting Lopez go, trading Zubac for Muscala, signing Lance etc. Then Kawhi screwed us over by asking to open cap space, whereby we had to dump Wagner and Bonga, who could both be valuable rotation players. Yet, we made it out pretty well recognizing player development isn’t our strength and rather putting veteran professionals around Lebron.

I am still in wait and see mode with THT. It's just one of those things with combo guards that haven't had consistent shooting where for every Clarkson, there are 10 Dennis Smith Jr's.

I actually wonder what it would take to build out Toronto's infrastructure where the guys they get have a 3&D floor but franchise player upside. The talent they've accumulated with minimal draft capital (especially in terms of player development as a contending team) is arguably the best in the league. Siakam and OG were both drafted at the end of the 1st round, and you can lump FVV and Powell in the same category. It almost feels like they are at a Spurs / Tim Duncan draft inflection point, where they could trade everyone if they really wanted, or could just move on from Lowry, nab the right guy, and have a dynasty on their hands.

People like to say that the draft is a crapshoot. That's true... for those who don't how to draft, and Toronto definitely knows how to draft.

[Slava]

I think the drafting and scouting network is still there. Randle mentioned Jesse Buss and Nick Mazella as the key guys on the Lakers who scouted him. Of course you’re going to have less draft capital once you go all in with Lebron James but even since Ryan West left, we’ve bought a pick and drafted THT, who’s gotten pretty rave reviews so far as a multi skilled wing.

For all the young talent the Lakers accumulated, it all served a purpose in getting Davis. Once you add Lebron and AD, everything else was a means to an end. The thing that stings is the brief period of dumb **** Magic did like letting Lopez go, trading Zubac for Muscala, signing Lance etc. Then Kawhi screwed us over by asking to open cap space, whereby we had to dump Wagner and Bonga, who could both be valuable rotation players. Yet, we made it out pretty well recognizing player development isn’t our strength and rather putting veteran professionals around Lebron.

I am still in wait and see mode with THT. It's just one of those things with combo guards that haven't had consistent shooting where for every Clarkson, there are 10 Dennis Smith Jr's.

I actually wonder what it would take to build out Toronto's infrastructure where the guys they get have a 3&D floor but franchise player upside. The talent they've accumulated with minimal draft capital (especially in terms of player development as a contending team) is arguably the best in the league. Siakam and OG were both drafted at the end of the 1st round, and you can lump FVV and Powell in the same category. It almost feels like they are at a Spurs / Tim Duncan draft inflection point, where they could trade everyone if they really wanted, or could just move on from Lowry, nab the right guy, and have a dynasty on their hands.

People like to say that the draft is a crapshoot. That's true... for those who don't how to draft, and Toronto definitely knows how to draft.

Toronto did well to out draft their capitol but I hardly see a superstar talent on that roster. Just a lot of starter caliber players who looked good with continuity and a superstar in Leonard. It’s hard to know how reflective the season in Tampa was of their nucleus but I’d be interested to see more before conferring a future dynasty tag on them.

In regards to THT, he’s an excellent finisher at the basket, so he’s already ahead of Clarkson and DSJ on that skill and unlike clarkson, he actually passes and facilitates well.

The shooting is a concern but he’s not hurting anyone if he is leading second units as a primary or secondary playmaker.

[Kilroy]

Was Clarkson ever really a 'consistent shooter' for us... He had his moments, but age for age and pound for pound, THT is superior to Clarkson in just about every way...
Not to mention THT is an NBA player 2 years before Clarkson made it to the show... He was 22 when he became a pro, and was shooting .347 from 3 at 23 in his second season, off a little over 4 attempts a game... These are not earth shattering numbers. Better than THT? Sure... But where will THT be at 23?

[aaron_gray]

Was Clarkson ever really a 'consistent shooter' for us... He had his moments, but age for age and pound for pound, THT is superior to Clarkson in just about every way...
Not to mention THT is an NBA player 2 years before Clarkson made it to the show... He was 22 when he became a pro, and was shooting .347 from 3 at 23 in his second season, off a little over 4 attempts a game... These are not earth shattering numbers. Better than THT? Sure... But where will THT be at 23?

Careers don't really just progress like that though right. DSJ came in at 19 as well I believe, as did Mudiay, Exum, Ntilikina, etc. Obviously these are completely cherry picked players, but in general, the scoring 6'2 - 6'5 combo guards that have succeeded in the nba at least shot well from the line in college, or wherever their last stop was.

[ROballer]

Well if FT% is an indicator for future 3 point range success, THT has shot .775% last year from the line.

That's well enough for what was essentially his rookie year, last year didn't really count with the low number of games he played.

His 3 point shooting will come around, probably not 40%+ but we're salivating about Kentavious Caldwell Trash Can as a plus shooter when in fact he had one season at 40%+ his damn life and he's hovering at 36-37% as a Laker.
If that's a plus shooter, I don't see why THT can't get close to that at some point. With everything else he has to offer(playmaking, rebounding, even defense, obviously being able to create his own shot and score multiple ways), that's a damn good player for a 40 something pick.

[Kilroy]

Well if FT% is an indicator for future 3 point range success, THT has shot .775% last year from the line.

That's well enough for what was essentially his rookie year, last year didn't really count with the low number of games he played.

His 3 point shooting will come around, probably not 40%+ but we're salivating about Kentavious Caldwell Trash Can as a plus shooter when in fact he had one season at 40%+ his damn life and he's hovering at 36-37% as a Laker.
If that's a plus shooter, I don't see why THT can't get close to that at some point. With everything else he has to offer(playmaking, rebounding, even defense, obviously being able to create his own shot and score multiple ways), that's a damn good player for a 40 something pick.

Agreed, but I think you're underselling... If THT got to the high 30s in 3pt %, he's our '3rd star' without question...

Like you pointed out, he does so many other things at a high level and with his youth, that adding a reliable 3 on decent volume would make him virtually untouchable...

[Freighttrain]

Dame is going to ask out this offseason, he’s just looking for cover to do it. It’s too bad the Lakers don’t have ANY assets to throw their hat in the ring, lol

This is blasphemy for typing this, but AD for Dame could benefit both teams. We get a superstar point guard, get rid of Shröder, and mainly a guy who isn't injury prone and someone who provides spacing. LeBron plays at the 4. They're both pretty ball-dominant, so it'll have to be some kind of Wade/Bron figuring things out at first I'm sure. For Portland, they get to rejuvenate their franchise with a top 10 guy in his prime and still compete, perhaps even more so now with a big down low and Mccollum as their primary guard. It's probably their best package if they still want to compete. We would lose on defense though, so we might want to get more compensation. Again, it's all hypothetical. I'm not even convinced in this trade but it's a fun mental exercise. We're not however getting Dame without giving up one of our two main guys though. That would be too good.

[Slava]

A healthy AD is comfortably a tier above Lillard as a two way player. There's no way Lakers should make that deal.

[Pythagoras]

A healthy AD is comfortably a tier above Lillard as a two way player. There's no way Lakers should make that deal.

He’s also much younger. There’s no universe where I consider a Dame for AD swap.

[Beethoven]

Much respect to the hobos this year. I appreciate their hard work even amidst injuries.