The Draft Thread: Ayton Vs Doncic 1

[AtheJ415]

This right here explains the complete bias against Doncic. Rebounding and post skill only in Ayton not Doncic ... Ball handling and passing only in Doncic, not Ayton. Doncic is much better at post skills and his rebounding is not that bad. Not even fair to compare Ayton to Donic in passing and dribbling. Most of these mocks rely too much on athleticism and potential not actual skills.

Ayton ranking on NBA Draft


Doncic ranking on NBA Draft


Doncic and Booker had the same complaints/scores for athleticism, strength, and quickness. If people don't see bulging muscles then the player is not athletic and is slow and weak.

No they didn't. Booker had the top lane agility time in the combine. Some might have questioned his athleticism in other ways but he wasn't considered a poor athlete overall and anybody who thought he wasn't quick just ignored the combine. Also, NBA Draft is the worst site you can look at imo. It is just a couple dudes and they have had crazy stuff like guys projected lottery who ended up undrafted. The Stepien, DraftExpress (RIP), etc. have all been way better.

I think there is a bias against Doncic's athleticism because he is white and night a blindingly elite leaper. He is athletic though. Great balance, good speed for his size. Moves well and is super coordinated. He is not extroardinarily quick though. He gets good speed after a few dribbles but his change of direction is not elite for a wing and his leaping is probably average. I don't think there is a real comparison though with Ayton as far as athleticism goes. Ayton at his size might be the best athlete in the draft. You'd have arguments for Zhaire Smith and some others, but guys at Aytons size with that type of athleticism are rarer than wings like Zhaire imo.

Point being, both are good athletes, but Ayton's the better one. And I wouldn't cite NBA draft.net for anything really.

[bigfoot]

The Stepien, DraftExpress (RIP), etc. have all been way better.

Most excellent ... The Stepien current mock is

1. Doncic
2. Jackson
3. Young
4. Carter
5. Bagley
6. Ayton

Not surprised Bagley and Carter would be ranked higher. Duke had a much harder strength of schedule and made it to the Elite 8. UofA had a cream puff schedule.

https://www.thestepien.com/individual-rankings/

[bwgood77]

This right here explains the complete bias against Doncic. Rebounding and post skill only in Ayton not Doncic ... Ball handling and passing only in Doncic, not Ayton. Doncic is much better at post skills and his rebounding is not that bad. Not even fair to compare Ayton to Donic in passing and dribbling. Most of these mocks rely too much on athleticism and potential not actual skills.

Ayton ranking on NBA Draft


Doncic ranking on NBA Draft


Doncic and Booker had the same complaints/scores for athleticism, strength, and quickness. If people don't see bulging muscles then the player is not athletic and is slow and weak.

No they didn't. Booker had the top lane agility time in the combine. Some might have questioned his athleticism in other ways but he wasn't considered a poor athlete overall and anybody who thought he wasn't quick just ignored the combine. Also, NBA Draft is the worst site you can look at imo. It is just a couple dudes and they have had crazy stuff like guys projected lottery who ended up undrafted. The Stepien, DraftExpress (RIP), etc. have all been way better.

I think there is a bias against Doncic's athleticism because he is white and night a blindingly elite leaper. He is athletic though. Great balance, good speed for his size. Moves well and is super coordinated. He is not extroardinarily quick though. He gets good speed after a few dribbles but his change of direction is not elite for a wing and his leaping is probably average. I don't think there is a real comparison though with Ayton as far as athleticism goes. Ayton at his size might be the best athlete in the draft. You'd have arguments for Zhaire Smith and some others, but guys at Aytons size with that type of athleticism are rarer than wings like Zhaire imo.

Point being, both are good athletes, but Ayton's the better one. And I wouldn't cite NBA draft.net for anything really.

Obviously the nbadraft.net stuff is way pre combine. I don't really put any stock into them. But DX wasn't the best on Booker either considering the combine result...

With that said, his lack of length and reach, combined with his average lateral quickness, does raise some concerns.

- Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Devin-Booker-7216/ ©DraftExpress

Though they also thought he might be a good defender before stating that, which hasn't really been the case..

Defensively, Booker's strong frame and competitive nature means he is unlikely to emerge as a liability on this end of the floor. He fights over screens, and shows excellent technique and fundamentals, rarely getting pushed around, despite his youth.

- Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Devin-Booker-7216/ ©DraftExpress

Though they also stated this...

Additionally, he averaged one of the lowest number of blocks, steals and rebounds of any player in this draft on a per-minute basis, which is a red-flag statistically that again points towards a distinct lack of upside on this end of the court.

- Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Devin-Booker-7216/ ©DraftExpress

[kennydorglas]

The Stepien, DraftExpress (RIP), etc. have all been way better.

Most excellent ... The Stepien current mock is

1. Doncic
2. Jackson
3. Young
4. Carter
5. Bagley
6. Ayton

Not surprised Bagley and Carter would be ranked higher. Duke had a much harder strength of schedule and made it to the Elite 8. UofA had a cream puff schedule.

https://www.thestepien.com/individual-rankings/

It's amazing how much I agree with Zwicker.
Every prospect I like, he says basically the same thing about them.

[TASTIC]

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=23540047

Jay Williams with a quick vid...Comparing Ayton to Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem and Admiral.

Davis' size with Al Horford's offensive game.

Reaches everywhere.

But I'm still Team Ayton!

[Kerrsed]

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=23540047

Jay Williams with a quick vid...Comparing Ayton to Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem and Admiral.

Davis' size with Al Horford's offensive game.

Reaches everywhere.

But I'm still Team Ayton!

Dont forget "The Poise and Potential IQ of legendary David Robinson".

[bigfoot]

Definitely worth a read on big man offense ... Embiid above average in the post during the regular season. Not so much when he runs into Al Horford. Good stuff and maybe will give you some ideas about how Ayton can be used or even some of his deficiencies.

https://www.thestepien.com/2018/05/21/big-men-playoff-takeaways-2018-draft/

[JMac1]

My biggest fear is this ... Wendall Carter 30 and 16 ... Ayton 19 and 10 ... lazy and disinterested.

Watch on YouTube

20/10 is lazy and disinterested? If you look closer to who was guarding Carter, you would see that is was McCoy 9 out of 10 times. Ayton was playing PF and guarding the PF. He did on occasion come over for help defense.

But yeah, lets use some EYBL footage as a marker on how lazy he is. Im sure i can find games of Doncic where it gives the same exact perception, but i wont stoop down to that level (Just as bad as re-posting links about how we are drafting Doncic because the Suns twitter account put the accent above the S when we hired Igor, but some lame website is trying to say its for Doncic or repeating that Jackson was pointing to Ayton at the draft).

What ever!! Ayton's defensive motor and/or IQ is questionable, period. That's frightening for center. I would rather pick Jackson or Carter Jr over him because we don't need Amare 2.0. We had Amare 1.0, the guy who could score but with his elite athleticism could never figure out the defensive end.

Back from the gym just in time.

Yea and if the non defensive playing Amare was healthy in 05 and not suspended in 06, we’d probably have at least one title. I’ll take a 7’1 healthy Amare over anyone not named Embiid or AD all day everyday!

If you want Capela more power to ya.

[JMac1]

Yeah, a couple things.

While it's not good to have a questionable motor, being the best rebounder in the country while nearly setting UA's all time shot blocking record with said motor actually points to upside. It isn't just a bad thing. When guys are productive despite holes in their games it points to areas to improve.

Second, I find it absolutely hilarious this absurd argument that "we don't know how Ayton will handle grown men in the NBA". If you are saying that about him you have to say it about every prospect that has ever existed aside from those back when we sent college kids to the national team or the European prospects who have played on these teams, but if you honestly believe that is such a huge difference to decide your picks on, then I am thoroughly confused why this board hasn't been clamoring for Europeans for years and why Dzanan Musa isn't the #2 projected pick on these people's boards. Also, we do know how Ayton will deal with NBA bigs. Be real here. He is 7'1" 260 and all muscle. He will bully the hell out of all but a couple bigs in the league from day 1 and is as athletic and skilled as any center other than the Embiid's and Davis's of the world.

Yea. I’m just about done responding to these type of posts. Since when has this been an issue? I’m just And 1ing these types of posts and posting for Ayton supporters. I think the Doncic supporters have just down graded Ayton into a second round pick in order to build up Doncic. Crazy!

Dude is 7’1, skilled and dominant and a top shelf athlete and people don’t know how he will translate. Ok.

Not your post. The one you responded to.

[JMac1]

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=23540047

Jay Williams with a quick vid...Comparing Ayton to Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem and Admiral.

Davis' size with Al Horford's offensive game.

Reaches everywhere.

But I'm still Team Ayton!

I know former top flight basketball players have no credibility when it comes to player assessments over the stat gurus who never played any sport, but knows what it takes to be an athlete and winner, I still trust the pros.

[AtheJ415]

The Stepien, DraftExpress (RIP), etc. have all been way better.

Most excellent ... The Stepien current mock is

1. Doncic
2. Jackson
3. Young
4. Carter
5. Bagley
6. Ayton

Not surprised Bagley and Carter would be ranked higher. Duke had a much harder strength of schedule and made it to the Elite 8. UofA had a cream puff schedule.

https://www.thestepien.com/individual-rankings/

Yeah. We all know where the Stepien has these guys. The Stepien guys were high on Bender also. Like top 3 IIRC. They are better than nbadraft but doesn't mean they are perfect. I find it insane that you are lauding Bagley here who is more of a disaster on D than Ayton and has a worse release. He tries harder but is less productive, which isn't exactly a good thing either. I like Carter. He's easy because just solid all around.

[AtheJ415]

20/10 is lazy and disinterested? If you look closer to who was guarding Carter, you would see that is was McCoy 9 out of 10 times. Ayton was playing PF and guarding the PF. He did on occasion come over for help defense.

But yeah, lets use some EYBL footage as a marker on how lazy he is. Im sure i can find games of Doncic where it gives the same exact perception, but i wont stoop down to that level (Just as bad as re-posting links about how we are drafting Doncic because the Suns twitter account put the accent above the S when we hired Igor, but some lame website is trying to say its for Doncic or repeating that Jackson was pointing to Ayton at the draft).

What ever!! Ayton's defensive motor and/or IQ is questionable, period. That's frightening for center. I would rather pick Jackson or Carter Jr over him because we don't need Amare 2.0. We had Amare 1.0, the guy who could score but with his elite athleticism could never figure out the defensive end.

Back from the gym just in time.

Yea and if the non defensive playing Amare was healthy in 05 and not suspended in 06, we’d probably have at least one title. I’ll take a 7’1 healthy Amare over anyone not named Embiid or AD all day everyday!

If you want Capela more power to ya.

I'll go a bit further and say that if you could guarantee Amare 2.0 he would probably go 1 in this draft.

[bwgood77]

The Stepien, DraftExpress (RIP), etc. have all been way better.

Most excellent ... The Stepien current mock is

1. Doncic
2. Jackson
3. Young
4. Carter
5. Bagley
6. Ayton

Not surprised Bagley and Carter would be ranked higher. Duke had a much harder strength of schedule and made it to the Elite 8. UofA had a cream puff schedule.

https://www.thestepien.com/individual-rankings/

Yeah. We all know where the Stepien has these guys. The Stepien guys were high on Bender also. Like top 3 IIRC. They are better than nbadraft but doesn't mean they are perfect. I find it insane that you are lauding Bagley here who is more of a disaster on D than Ayton and has a worse release. He tries harder but is less productive, which isn't exactly a good thing either. I like Carter. He's easy because just solid all around.

Stepien just got created this past year. You don't need to make stuff up. I think they are off on Ayton (he should be 1 or 2), though if you look at individual rankings, some have him higher or in the same tier as a bunch of others. But there was nothing from Stepien on Bender. Maybe a couple of the individual writers, but it didn't sound like you were talking about that.

[76ciology]

Bagley? Yuck. Low deflections, assists and 3s.

LOL at Trae Young at tier 2. Trae will have a tough time getting his shot off and will get abused on D every night.

[saintEscaton]

Bagley? Yuck. Low deflections, assists and 3s.

LOL at Trae Young at tier 2. Trae will have a tough time getting his shot off and will get abused on D every night.

Are you set on Mikal Bridges?

[76ciology]

Bagley? Yuck. Low deflections, assists and 3s.

LOL at Trae Young at tier 2. Trae will have a tough time getting his shot off and will get abused on D every night.

Are you set on Mikal Bridges?

Boring times for us. Thats why im here. We’re trying to make it exciting by considering Shai at 10th.

Hope we trade up for MPJ. Red shirt rookie material spotted!

[76ciology]

Asking around. Do you need to be atleast elite on D with ability to be an efficient (near or better 60 TS%) 20ppg scorer to be a superstar center in today’s game?

I just feel there are several really talented centers in the league that can’t get to that tier, such as DMC or KAT. AD seems to be in the limbo between a star and superstar.

[lilfishi22]

Asking around. Do you need to be atleast elite on D with ability to be an efficient (near or better 60 TS%) 20ppg scorer to be a superstar center in today’s game?

I just feel there are several really talented centers in the league that can’t get to that tier, such as DMC or KAT. AD seems to be in the limbo between a star and superstar.

Embiid is getting there but AD is the closest big man to that superstar tier.

[Jkam31]

The Stepien, DraftExpress (RIP), etc. have all been way better.

Most excellent ... The Stepien current mock is

1. Doncic
2. Jackson
3. Young
4. Carter
5. Bagley
6. Ayton

Not surprised Bagley and Carter would be ranked higher. Duke had a much harder strength of schedule and made it to the Elite 8. UofA had a cream puff schedule.

https://www.thestepien.com/individual-rankings/

That’s there rankings not a mock


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

[76ciology]

Asking around. Do you need to be atleast elite on D with ability to be an efficient (near or better 60 TS%) 20ppg scorer to be a superstar center in today’s game?

I just feel there are several really talented centers in the league that can’t get to that tier, such as DMC or KAT. AD seems to be in the limbo between a star and superstar.

Embiid is getting there but AD is the closest big man to that superstar tier.

I feel like star with big impact = superstar.

And for a C to be a star he needs to be able to score 20ppg then for him to play big impact, he needs to play D.

That’s the reason why Gobert or DMC can’t be a superstars. Because Gobert can’t score 20ppg while DMC can’t provide elite D.

While when AD plays with impact he looks like a superstar but when he plays non elite defense with 20ppg offense then he reverts back to irrelevance.

Going a big further, that’s probably why the past era centers were superstars back then. They play elite D with high scoring efficiency.

Going further.. if Ayton can’t provide elite D. Shouldn’t his upside be in the same tier with Doncic and JJJ?