Markelle Fultz

[bigdogdylan5]

So I have a question has there ever been a magic player that the debate always gets this heated? I mean we have had players that were pretty universally hated Duhon and Big Baby (except for that one guy trolling before it was cool) but haven’t seen a debate where one side really thinks the guy is very good and the other side would trade him for literally anything. Don’t we think the truth might be somewhere in the middle. I think it’s clear the Magic want to see one more season. Let’s go and see where the cards fall.

The Fultz threads are nowhere near as heated as the Vucecic or Fournier ones used to be.

True the Vuc stuff got really nasty

[basketballRob]

Yeah, I'm glad we got rid of those guys.

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[jonbob17]

So I have a question has there ever been a magic player that the debate always gets this heated? I mean we have had players that were pretty universally hated Duhon and Big Baby (except for that one guy trolling before it was cool) but haven’t seen a debate where one side really thinks the guy is very good and the other side would trade him for literally anything. Don’t we think the truth might be somewhere in the middle. I think it’s clear the Magic want to see one more season. Let’s go and see where the cards fall.

The Fultz threads are nowhere near as heated as the Vucecic or Fournier ones used to be.

True the Vuc stuff got really nasty

Some people loved Vuc, so that was definitely more contraversial. Lot of Europeans on this board too, so I think Vuc had some extra supprt.

I mean with Fournier, I guess he is European as well, but i think everybody was in agreement he had to go, and he was what he was.

AG - plenty wanted to keep him, but i think was pretty clear he was going to be better off somewhere else...and he really lucked out landing in the perfect spot for him...he was in all star conversation last year, no chance that was happening in Orlando, maybe anywhere else outside of maybe Golden State.

Oladipo trade was universally panned, right. Harris too?

I didn't join this board until after the Howard teardown, i would have been curious to see how people reacted to the antics and trade that happened back then...guess it probably was it was, Dwight forced, so what are you going to do.

I bet the Turkoglu trade to Toronto would have been pretty controversial.

I hated the Mcgrady trade, but at the same time that was the year Rivers got fired the team was a disaster, and that whole era was over, something had to change.

[pepe1991]

Vuc was good player and netted us great value. Fultz , on other hand...

Even trade for him ended up poorly for us . We got him , 76ers got Maxey.

[basketballRob]

Goes to show you that stats don't equate to wins.

Vuc and Fournier fooled a lot of people.

Fultz doesn't have the stats but is a bigger winner.

Many things don't show up on the stat sheet. Fultz is unselfish and plays for the team. Fournier and Vuc play for Fournier and Vuc.

I guarantee that Fultz ends up starting in more playoff wins than Vuc and Fournier combined.

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[Skybox]

Goes to show you that stats don't equate to wins.

Vuc and Fournier fooled a lot of people.

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...don't take the bait, don't take the bait, don't take the bait...don't bring up the all-star voters (NBA coaches)

Mod, protect us from ourselves

[VFX]

Goes to show you that stats don't equate to wins.

Vuc and Fournier fooled a lot of people.

Fultz doesn't have the stats but is a bigger winner.

Many things don't show up on the stat sheet. Fultz is unselfish and plays for the team. Fournier and Vuc play for Fournier and Vuc.

I guarantee that Fultz ends up starting in more playoff wins than Vuc and Fournier combined.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM mobile app

None of them have necessary skillsets in 2023 to be great players at their respective positions.

I don't know why Vuc or Fournier are even brought into this conversation.

If they are ever brought up again it would be too soon.

[bigdogdylan5]

The Fultz threads are nowhere near as heated as the Vucecic or Fournier ones used to be.

True the Vuc stuff got really nasty

Some people loved Vuc, so that was definitely more contraversial. Lot of Europeans on this board too, so I think Vuc had some extra supprt.

I mean with Fournier, I guess he is European as well, but i think everybody was in agreement he had to go, and he was what he was.

AG - plenty wanted to keep him, but i think was pretty clear he was going to be better off somewhere else...and he really lucked out landing in the perfect spot for him...he was in all star conversation last year, no chance that was happening in Orlando, maybe anywhere else outside of maybe Golden State.

Oladipo trade was universally panned, right. Harris too?

I didn't join this board until after the Howard teardown, i would have been curious to see how people reacted to the antics and trade that happened back then...guess it probably was it was, Dwight forced, so what are you going to do.

I bet the Turkoglu trade to Toronto would have been pretty controversial.

I hated the Mcgrady trade, but at the same time that was the year Rivers got fired the team was a disaster, and that whole era was over, something had to change.

The Vuc stuff to me felt more personal than Fultz. He clearly loved the city and having had a history of all star centers not doing that. Like I don’t think the Fultz stuff is personal like that. I think a lot of people see the flashes and it’s just ceiling if the shot could ever get fixed (I don’t believe it will ever be totally fixed).

The Dwightmare stuff was nuts but honestly most people on the board blamed Otis more than Dwight (not saying Dwight got a pass). The Rashard contract going south and some of the dumb money he handed out just didn’t make sense. The CP3 rumors were a fun time and got really crazy on the board it was always unrealistic to me. That related to the Otis hate and the complete inability to put a true second star next to Dwight.

[yoyojw17]

This is hilarious. I think my English is good enough to strike your nerves and get you angry because i said something negative about athlete you never met in your life.

As for his mommy issues, bike accident etc, those were all rumors & stories that were never confirmed to be true. But also never disproven.
Much like his TOS.

At the end of a day he is below average starter who is instructed by his agent to pull all the strings in right way to land massive contract exstension. Hence, exit interview, haircut, adding 3 Magic related posts on instagram after having 0 in five years etc.

It's just up to you will you buy in timeline and think all this is just coincidence or be sceptial and judge him based in what he did in past six years, not what he is saying in past months.

We disagree on a quite few things... lol....but yeah bro ... your messages are conveyed well. don't worry about it!

[Audi]

The Vuc stuff to me felt more personal than Fultz. He clearly loved the city and having had a history of all star centers not doing that. Like I don’t think the Fultz stuff is personal like that. I think a lot of people see the flashes and it’s just ceiling if the shot could ever get fixed (I don’t believe it will ever be totally fixed).

I dunno man. We literally have a few posters here who still think Fultz was faking injuries and shopping doctors for a favorable diagnosis, after being told numerous times that TOS is diagnosed via exclusion (so seeing multiple specialists should be expected). We also have some here who haven't changed opinions since his rookie debut that he has no physical issues and it's all just mental..again..ignoring a physical diagnosis from medical professionals. We also have had posters here say that even if Fultz has an improved year, they still want him off the team regardless.

I really don't think it ever got that personal with Vuc.

[AaronB]

I am Bullish Fultz, but I get that not everyone else is.

I respect that and get why people should be bearish.

But as soon as someone starts talking about Fultz's medical diagnosis like he/she/it knows what he/she/it is talking about then I draw the line.

Fultz was checked by the world's experts in TOS and was treated for TOS by some of the world's sharpest experts.

[Bensational]

Expectations matter.

I think a lot of people who take the anti-Fultz side of things see this organization is on the precipice of a potentially sustained run of high end success and they don't want to mess it up before it even gets started.

If this was just a tank ball situation and none of it mattered, people wouldn't feel as strongly as they do.

But the Magic genuinely have a chance to do some good things over the next few seasons and it's not the time to get sentimental about nice players and stories who aren't necessarily the right player to maximize what they want to do.

THIS is where I'm at...and I'm willing to give him the opportunity to prove his worth. As a former #1 pick, he's been to the mountaintop...but, I'm (because of the opportunity for ORL, compounded by the contract status and pending maxes) running out of time. As far as the "heated emotional" nature of this thread...I'll say again, I'm seeing consistent specific concerns listed by "anti" usually answered with "why the HATE?" general, meaningless, loyalist counters.

Is it debatable that Franz and Paolo are the focus of our growth (among our current roster)? NO

Is it debatable that outside shooting from the backcourt would be the #1 thing that would enhance their skill sets and point them towards All-Star status? NO

Is it debatable that paying a PG $20m plus on a new deal is, basically, marrying him? NOT REALLY
(it's not a given that you can trade that given his injury history and lack of desired skills-maybe, but far from certain)

He's a pretty good player with potential to be really good, but as he currently plays - he's not a good fit here. I don't even like the idea that it's "anti"...people here making it personal and emotional when they don't like the facts.

The issue comes down to his body of work, skill set, price point, and the roster construction.

None of those things are positive to me and people are being extremely disingenuous if they think the last year of his deal, in his contract year, is going to be the selling point to all of those concerns. It won’t change anything.

Now, if you want to argue that his cost is “the going rate”, then fine. The problem is that I’d much rather have other options to pair with Paolo and Franz for the foreseeable future if they are shelling out a chunk of cap space on a point guard AFTER using a top lotto pick on one.

We’ve seen Boston (built similarly) shuffle a backcourt around to accommodate their now expensive core with whatever available options they can. They are maxed out of moves now unless they trade Brown. I’d rather Orlando just find the right fit rather than just “settle” and “wait and see” until they are forced to make a low yield trade or better yet, watch the inevitable lack of floor spacing and stagnant offense take place for the next 4 years because people wanted to “wait and see” and like a feel good story.

As I’ve stated, the timeframe has already passed on a legitimate move. Anything otherwise is bad return. It’s not happening. It’s about cost now and people either get this or don’t.

And no... I don't think Markelle Fultz should be potentially Orlando's third highest paid player in 3 seasons if we are being serious about contending for anything.

This collection of posts does a good job of summarising the discrepancy. There is a whole lot of generalised proclamations and empty concerns presented as doomsday headline worries. To me, Fultz “supporters” just want to give Fultz one more season of evaluation, where the Fultz “haters” are running a campaign of fear and misinformation around Fultz.

We’re “on the precipice of something great” after a single rookie season, and Fultz will “ruin that before it starts”. Cool empty platitudes - tell us what the specific lineup is that will unlock this greatness. Fred Van Vleet? Anfernee Simons? Jordan Poole?

Skybox’s post is hilariously ironic. Everything he listed in there “is this debatable? NO!” has been debated in this thread! Just because you ignore the debates doesn’t mean your opinions aren’t debated, and other people don’t assume it’s correct. When you oversimplify your statements it gives you a false sense of confidence. There is so much nuance in every “undebatable topic” you mentioned, and that’s where you guys lose support. It’s not as black and white as “core/no core”, “shooting good/shooting bad”, “fultz good/fultz bad”. And because you demonstrate a lack of appreciation for the nuance, your opinions are much harder to value highly.

And then lastly we get MagicMatic fanning the flames of “it’s only going to be a contract year performance!”. So even if Fultz has a stellar season, you guys have laid a foundation for you to dismiss it and refuse to believe it because you’ve already decided on him after 6 bizarre seasons.

Ultimately, you guys have singled out Fultz for crippling this team whilst very disingenuously not acknowledging where Paolo and Franz are in their own development. You don’t have a convincing alternative to sell us on because you don’t have a vision for what the team will look like in the future. You’ve armed yourselves with chicken little extrapolations for every outcome including Fultz but then simplified the alternatives to “shooting = good, ya?!”. It’s not good faith, and most of it isn’t even good logic.

[Knightro]

This collection of posts does a good job of summarising the discrepancy. There is a whole lot of generalised proclamations and empty concerns presented as doomsday headline worries. To me, Fultz “supporters” just want to give Fultz one more season of evaluation, where the Fultz “haters” are running a campaign of fear and misinformation around Fultz.

Your very first paragraph explains what the *actual* discrepancy is here man.

I cannot stress this next point enough. The Orlando Magic are NOT going to let Markelle Fultz walk away for nothing after this season if the team has success.

It truly does not matter if Fultz shows little to no improvement off last year. The team is likely going to improve by 6-10 wins if they have better health and improvement by Franz/Paolo/Suggs. And Markelle is going to get resigned to a bigger contract that he currently makes now to "keep the train moving".

Jeff Weltman is simply not going to let his starting point guard walk for nothing coming off a 40-45 win season. That will not happen. There is no evaluation left to do on that front.

[Knightro]

The only way Markelle Fultz is not resigned by the Magic this upcoming summer is if he falls flat on his face and just completely stinks.

And I don't expect that to happen. I think he'll play about the same as he did last year and the Magic, based on their overall team success, will resign him to a large contract.

[basketballRob]

The only way Markelle Fultz is not resigned by the Magic this upcoming summer is if he falls flat on his face and just completely stinks.

And I don't expect that to happen. I think he'll play about the same as he did last year and the Magic, based on their overall team success, will resign him to a large contract.

I think they could let him walk if another team overpays. That's the luxury of having cap space. If Fultz walks, then we still have a bunch of money to bring in a player.

Weltman came from Toronto, where they set a price and don't overpay. They let Biz and FVV walk.

[Knightro]

I think they could let him walk if another team overpays. That's the luxury of having cap space. If Fultz walks, then we still have a bunch of money to bring in a player.

Weltman came from Toronto, where they set a price and don't overpay. They let Biz and FVV walk.

Oh Rob c'mon now. At least get the facts correct here.

The Raptors "let Biyombo walk" because they didn't have his full bird rights (he was on a 1 year deal) so they could only give him a small raise off his $3M salary. Once it became clear he was going to get more than $15M on the open market, that was the end of the story for them.

And suggesting the Magic might let Fultz walk because Toronto let VanVleet walk quite literally 7 years after Weltman left the organization seems like a pretty massive stretch.

[Skybox]

THIS is where I'm at...and I'm willing to give him the opportunity to prove his worth. As a former #1 pick, he's been to the mountaintop...but, I'm (because of the opportunity for ORL, compounded by the contract status and pending maxes) running out of time. As far as the "heated emotional" nature of this thread...I'll say again, I'm seeing consistent specific concerns listed by "anti" usually answered with "why the HATE?" general, meaningless, loyalist counters.

Is it debatable that Franz and Paolo are the focus of our growth (among our current roster)? NO

Is it debatable that outside shooting from the backcourt would be the #1 thing that would enhance their skill sets and point them towards All-Star status? NO

Is it debatable that paying a PG $20m plus on a new deal is, basically, marrying him? NOT REALLY
(it's not a given that you can trade that given his injury history and lack of desired skills-maybe, but far from certain)

He's a pretty good player with potential to be really good, but as he currently plays - he's not a good fit here. I don't even like the idea that it's "anti"...people here making it personal and emotional when they don't like the facts.

The issue comes down to his body of work, skill set, price point, and the roster construction.

None of those things are positive to me and people are being extremely disingenuous if they think the last year of his deal, in his contract year, is going to be the selling point to all of those concerns. It won’t change anything.

Now, if you want to argue that his cost is “the going rate”, then fine. The problem is that I’d much rather have other options to pair with Paolo and Franz for the foreseeable future if they are shelling out a chunk of cap space on a point guard AFTER using a top lotto pick on one.

We’ve seen Boston (built similarly) shuffle a backcourt around to accommodate their now expensive core with whatever available options they can. They are maxed out of moves now unless they trade Brown. I’d rather Orlando just find the right fit rather than just “settle” and “wait and see” until they are forced to make a low yield trade or better yet, watch the inevitable lack of floor spacing and stagnant offense take place for the next 4 years because people wanted to “wait and see” and like a feel good story.

As I’ve stated, the timeframe has already passed on a legitimate move. Anything otherwise is bad return. It’s not happening. It’s about cost now and people either get this or don’t.

And no... I don't think Markelle Fultz should be potentially Orlando's third highest paid player in 3 seasons if we are being serious about contending for anything.

This collection of posts does a good job of summarising the discrepancy. There is a whole lot of generalised proclamations and empty concerns presented as doomsday headline worries. To me, Fultz “supporters” just want to give Fultz one more season of evaluation, where the Fultz “haters” are running a campaign of fear and misinformation around Fultz.

We’re “on the precipice of something great” after a single rookie season, and Fultz will “ruin that before it starts”. Cool empty platitudes - tell us what the specific lineup is that will unlock this greatness. Fred Van Vleet? Anfernee Simons? Jordan Poole?

Skybox’s post is hilariously ironic. Everything he listed in there “is this debatable? NO!” has been debated in this thread! Just because you ignore the debates doesn’t mean your opinions aren’t debated, and other people don’t assume it’s correct. When you oversimplify your statements it gives you a false sense of confidence. There is so much nuance in every “undebatable topic” you mentioned, and that’s where you guys lose support. It’s not as black and white as “core/no core”, “shooting good/shooting bad”, “fultz good/fultz bad”. And because you demonstrate a lack of appreciation for the nuance, your opinions are much harder to value highly.

And then lastly we get MagicMatic fanning the flames of “it’s only going to be a contract year performance!”. So even if Fultz has a stellar season, you guys have laid a foundation for you to dismiss it and refuse to believe it because you’ve already decided on him after 6 bizarre seasons.

Ultimately, you guys have singled out Fultz for crippling this team whilst very disingenuously not acknowledging where Paolo and Franz are in their own development. You don’t have a convincing alternative to sell us on because you don’t have a vision for what the team will look like in the future. You’ve armed yourselves with chicken little extrapolations for every outcome including Fultz but then simplified the alternatives to “shooting = good, ya?!”. It’s not good faith, and most of it isn’t even good logic.

Sometimes, things ARE that simple and obvious.

[VFX]

THIS is where I'm at...and I'm willing to give him the opportunity to prove his worth. As a former #1 pick, he's been to the mountaintop...but, I'm (because of the opportunity for ORL, compounded by the contract status and pending maxes) running out of time. As far as the "heated emotional" nature of this thread...I'll say again, I'm seeing consistent specific concerns listed by "anti" usually answered with "why the HATE?" general, meaningless, loyalist counters.

Is it debatable that Franz and Paolo are the focus of our growth (among our current roster)? NO

Is it debatable that outside shooting from the backcourt would be the #1 thing that would enhance their skill sets and point them towards All-Star status? NO

Is it debatable that paying a PG $20m plus on a new deal is, basically, marrying him? NOT REALLY
(it's not a given that you can trade that given his injury history and lack of desired skills-maybe, but far from certain)

He's a pretty good player with potential to be really good, but as he currently plays - he's not a good fit here. I don't even like the idea that it's "anti"...people here making it personal and emotional when they don't like the facts.

The issue comes down to his body of work, skill set, price point, and the roster construction.

None of those things are positive to me and people are being extremely disingenuous if they think the last year of his deal, in his contract year, is going to be the selling point to all of those concerns. It won’t change anything.

Now, if you want to argue that his cost is “the going rate”, then fine. The problem is that I’d much rather have other options to pair with Paolo and Franz for the foreseeable future if they are shelling out a chunk of cap space on a point guard AFTER using a top lotto pick on one.

We’ve seen Boston (built similarly) shuffle a backcourt around to accommodate their now expensive core with whatever available options they can. They are maxed out of moves now unless they trade Brown. I’d rather Orlando just find the right fit rather than just “settle” and “wait and see” until they are forced to make a low yield trade or better yet, watch the inevitable lack of floor spacing and stagnant offense take place for the next 4 years because people wanted to “wait and see” and like a feel good story.

As I’ve stated, the timeframe has already passed on a legitimate move. Anything otherwise is bad return. It’s not happening. It’s about cost now and people either get this or don’t.

And no... I don't think Markelle Fultz should be potentially Orlando's third highest paid player in 3 seasons if we are being serious about contending for anything.

And then lastly we get MagicMatic fanning the flames of “it’s only going to be a contract year performance!”. So even if Fultz has a stellar season, you guys have laid a foundation for you to dismiss it and refuse to believe it because you’ve already decided on him after 6 bizarre seasons.

Ultimately, you guys have singled out Fultz for crippling this team whilst very disingenuously not acknowledging where Paolo and Franz are in their own development. You don’t have a convincing alternative to sell us on because you don’t have a vision for what the team will look like in the future. You’ve armed yourselves with chicken little extrapolations for every outcome including Fultz but then simplified the alternatives to “shooting = good, ya?!”. It’s not good faith, and most of it isn’t even good logic.

Availability matters as much as the sample size we DO have from him. We have two seasons with 60+ games in 4 seasons while being the second highest paid player in Orlando after Isaac.

Even if we assume Fultz plays every single game next season. What you are saying is that you are perfectly fine with handing Fultz $25-30m for about 270 out of 410 possible games in 5 seasons?

How isn’t that a logical argument? He was available the season before Orlando handed him his already undeserved contract and now he’s been available two seasons before his next. No thanks, I’d rather pay a guy with a better track record and different skill set to mix with the core.

If he shows out and displays abilities, and a skill set, we haven’t seen in his 7-8 seasons in the league I will eat a large plate of crow. If he more than likely shows a slightly better example of his game from the 2022-23 season, then I’ll stand by what I’m talking about.

That’s not a illogical assessment yelling about the sky falling. It’s called avoiding an issue 3 seasons from now when Orlando’s cap-space matters. No, Fultz isn’t a good third option making that amount of money on a squad led by Paolo and Franz. You won’t convince me otherwise with the information available.

[Bensational]

This collection of posts does a good job of summarising the discrepancy. There is a whole lot of generalised proclamations and empty concerns presented as doomsday headline worries. To me, Fultz “supporters” just want to give Fultz one more season of evaluation, where the Fultz “haters” are running a campaign of fear and misinformation around Fultz.

Your very first paragraph explains what the *actual* discrepancy is here man.

I cannot stress this next point enough. The Orlando Magic are NOT going to let Markelle Fultz walk away for nothing after this season if the team has success.

It truly does not matter if Fultz shows little to no improvement off last year. The team is likely going to improve by 6-10 wins if they have better health and improvement by Franz/Paolo/Suggs. And Markelle is going to get resigned to a bigger contract that he currently makes now to "keep the train moving".

Jeff Weltman is simply not going to let his starting point guard walk for nothing coming off a 40-45 win season. That will not happen. There is no evaluation left to do on that front.

Cool speculation bro.

[VFX]

This collection of posts does a good job of summarising the discrepancy. There is a whole lot of generalised proclamations and empty concerns presented as doomsday headline worries. To me, Fultz “supporters” just want to give Fultz one more season of evaluation, where the Fultz “haters” are running a campaign of fear and misinformation around Fultz.

Your very first paragraph explains what the *actual* discrepancy is here man.

I cannot stress this next point enough. The Orlando Magic are NOT going to let Markelle Fultz walk away for nothing after this season if the team has success.

It truly does not matter if Fultz shows little to no improvement off last year. The team is likely going to improve by 6-10 wins if they have better health and improvement by Franz/Paolo/Suggs. And Markelle is going to get resigned to a bigger contract that he currently makes now to "keep the train moving".

Jeff Weltman is simply not going to let his starting point guard walk for nothing coming off a 40-45 win season. That will not happen. There is no evaluation left to do on that front.

Why is this so difficult to understand?? Lmao.

This thread has you and I saying this exact thing for the last 70 pages like 20 times.

Are people reading this or is everyone just dense on how league front offices operate.

There is no “wait and see”. That ended in the middle of last season.