Officlal Prospect thread

[TheProdigy]

Draftexpress updated their mock draft and they have us taking Evan Turner, Stanley Robinson, and Daniel Orton. That would be a tremendous haul for one draft.

Robinson is the perfect player to team up with Rubio in the future. Can you imagine the back door alley oops?

I also like the idea of drafting Daniel Orton with the Utah pick(if he's available). Assuming we resign Darko and both Al and Love return, there probably aren't going to be many minutes available for other front court players. Why not draft a young high risk type player that's not going to expect to play heavy minutes right away. He can ride the pine for a few years, be injury insurance to the other big men, and spend some time in the D-League developing his skills.

[Krapinsky]

They didn't update the mock, so much as they updated the draft order. Expect Orton to move up in his next mock, presumably above Alabi and Whiteside.

[dunkonu21]

Chris Wright (Dayton)

[horaceworthy]

It seems you have a high affinity for high BBIQ, low athleticism players. That's a very, very unalthletic team you've made there, with Zoubek, Jefferson, Love, Hayward, Hobson, Sessions, and Ellington lacking lateral quickness and athleticism. I think you need to mix it up a little bit. Robinson is an athletic freak and IMO is something our roster needs.

Weird comment, since it's the same team you assembled with 3 exceptions. Zoubek for Benzig, Hayward for Singler, and either Vesely or a deferred pick for Robinson. You're selling Hayward short as an athlete, he's a better athlete than Singler by a fairly decent margin. Zoubek and Hobson don't really matter to this discussion, they're just the best players DX projects to be available at our 2nds (I doubt either actually will be). Robinson may be an athletic freak, but Hayward is a better basketball player right now, and given that Hayward's a sophomore and Robinson's a senior that hasn't made notable improvement since his freshman year, it's unrealistic to expect him to become a better basketball player in the future. If we're rolling the dice on an athletic wing at some point, I'd rather it be George, Ebanks, Pondexter, James, or see if Chris Wright's there in the 2nd.

There also isn't much of a point in drafting 3 wings in the 1st round (particularly in a draft like this where it looks like there will be talent in the 2nd). If we get two then it makes more sense to stash a Euro or defer the pick to next year. At least one would end up just being wasted on the bench. Not much of a problem with a 2nd rounder, but 1st's have more value than that.

[Krapinsky]

It seems you have a high affinity for high BBIQ, low athleticism players. That's a very, very unalthletic team you've made there, with Zoubek, Jefferson, Love, Hayward, Hobson, Sessions, and Ellington lacking lateral quickness and athleticism. I think you need to mix it up a little bit. Robinson is an athletic freak and IMO is something our roster needs.

Weird comment, since it's the same team you assembled with 3 exceptions. Zoubek for Benzig, Hayward for Singler, and either Vesely or a deferred pick for Robinson. You're selling Hayward short as an athlete, he's a better athlete than Singler by a fairly decent margin. Zoubek and Hobson don't really matter to this discussion, they're just the best players DX projects to be available at our 2nds (I doubt either actually will be). Robinson may be an athletic freak, but Hayward is a better basketball player right now, and given that Hayward's a sophomore and Robinson's a senior that hasn't made notable improvement since his freshman year, it's unrealistic to expect him to become a better basketball player in the future. If we're rolling the dice on an athletic wing at some point, I'd rather it be George, Ebanks, Pondexter, James, or see if Chris Wright's there in the 2nd.

There also isn't much of a point in drafting 3 wings in the 1st round (particularly in a draft like this where it looks like there will be talent in the 2nd). If we get two then it makes more sense to stash a Euro or defer the pick to next year. At least one would end up just being wasted on the bench. Not much of a problem with a 2nd rounder, but 1st's have more value than that.

I guess it depends how much value you attach to the 16th pick and Robinson. I consider that pick and/or Robinson to be a significant player next year, one that fills a gaping weakness on our team. The 2nd rounders -- Zoubek, Hobson, etc., whomever, don't really effect the makeup of the roster in my opinion because I don't expect them to get any significant playing time. It's fine that you don't like Robinson, I was merely pointing out that we need someone to play that role, and Hayward (not a fan by any margin -- and I don't think he's better, nor do I think his game translates to the NBA) is far from the type of player that I think is needed in that role. If Hayward does fill a role at all, such a role won't be needed on a team with Turner and Rubio. Singler, is filling a different role on my team -- a shooter who can spread the floor. I'm not sure Hayward fills that role either. I'd also argue Singler actually is the more athletic, better defender, however it's close enough to make that argument moot. One player you noted was Pondexter -- and I would definitely be cool taking him in the Robinson role, but he'll be strictly a wing stopper and not someone who can guard perimeter oriented 4's like I think Robinson can.

[horaceworthy]

6'9", smart, tough, guard skills, good athlete, great feel for the game doesn't translate? Uncertain he can spread the floor because of one off year from beyond the arc (his FT% both his years in college, his near 45% shooting from beyond the arc his freshman year, and his great, consistent mechanics
seem to make most think this year's results were flukey)? A team with Rubio and Turner doesn't need a guy that works well without the ball, has a knack for being in the right place at the right time and a versatile skill set that can be taken advantage of in a variety of ways? Not sure about all that.

I like Singler, but in comparison, Hayward's in another league when it comes to things like a first step and body control.

[TheProdigy]

Evan Turner is expected to sign with agent David Falk, sources tell Yahoo! Sports.

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wireta ... z0kRi1RXOH

[Krapinsky]

6'9", smart, tough, guard skills, good athlete, great feel for the game doesn't translate? Uncertain he can spread the floor because of one off year from beyond the arc (his FT% both his years in college, his near 45% shooting from beyond the arc his freshman year, and his great, consistent mechanics
seem to make most think this year's results were flukey)? A team with Rubio and Turner doesn't need a guy that works well without the ball, has a knack for being in the right place at the right time and a versatile skill set that can be taken advantage of in a variety of ways? Not sure about all that.

I like Singler, but in comparison, Hayward's in another league when it comes to things like a first step and body control.

6'9", smart, though not tough; a good ball handler, but irrelevent for creating his own offense in the NBA because I don't think he's quick enough or strong enough to get to his spots in order create his own shot at the next level (think Luke Walton/Marko Jaric) -- not to mention he rarely if ever pull sup off the dribble. Also projects as a liability on defense. Seems like the only reason to draft him is as a spot up shooter -- but even there he's struggled during the last, most important part of the scouting process (this past year).

I think Singler is much more advanced at creating his own offense (has better footwork and usually only needs one step), is a better spot up shooter statistically, and plays with more intensity on both ends of the floor.

[horaceworthy]

6'9", smart, though not tough;

Not tough? I'm not sure what about him gives you that impression. He needs to get stronger, but he's definitely tough.

a good ball handler, but irrelevent for creating his own offense in the NBA

Not really, in an offense that likes to run a cutter through screens or on a straight backdoor cut once they get their bigs the ball, Hayward's skills are a great fit. He uses screens well with or without the ball, and is especially dangerous on the type of cuts we like to run.

because I don't think he's quick enough or strong enough to get to his spots in order create his own shot at the next level (think Luke Walton/Marko Jaric) -- not to mention he rarely if ever pull sup off the dribble.

If you're tossing Luke Walton/Marko Jaric out there as comparisons, I'm not sure how often you've seen Hayward play.

Also projects as a liability on defense. Seems like the only reason to draft him is as a spot up shooter -- but even there he's struggled during the last, most important part of the scouting process (this past year).

He's a smart defender who comes up with a lot of loose balls and plays the passing lanes well due to his length. He'll have to make the adjustment to guarding the perimeter more often and do a better job getting in a good defensive stance when he does. I'm not sure where you get the impression that the only reason to draft him would be as a spot up shooter, either.

I think Singler is much more advanced at creating his own offense (has better footwork and usually only needs one step),

Strongly disagree. He can hit a spot up jumper, but he struggles to convert on the move or in traffic around the rim, and doesn't do a good job getting to the free throw line.

is a better spot up shooter statistically,

During one season, the most recent season, but one season nonetheless.

and plays with more intensity on both ends of the floor.

No, he doesn't. He's a much more fundamentally sound perimeter defender, but I don't see where you're coming up with the stuff about Hayward not being tough or playing with intensity.

[Krapinsky]

6'9", smart, though not tough;

Not tough? I'm not sure what about him gives you that impression. He needs to get stronger, but he's definitely tough.

He doesn't like physicality, not when he's on offense, and not when he's on defense.

a good ball handler, but irrelevent for creating his own offense in the NBA

Not really, in an offense that likes to run a cutter through screens or on a straight backdoor cut once they get their bigs the ball, Hayward's skills are a great fit. He uses screens well with or without the ball, and is especially dangerous on the type of cuts we like to run.

Just about any player in the NBA can make the same cuts. That is fundamental basketball 101. No unique skillset is being utilized here. You've spliced one point into two, so I'll address it below.

because I don't think he's quick enough or strong enough to get to his spots in order create his own shot at the next level (think Luke Walton/Marko Jaric) -- not to mention he rarely if ever pull sup off the dribble.

If you're tossing Luke Walton/Marko Jaric out there as comparisons, I'm not sure how often you've seen Hayward play.

Not comparing him to either player, but merely this part of his skill set which is rendered moot at the next level because of his lack of athletic ability/quickness to go with it. Luke Walton is a player that can dribble all day, but if he's not quick enough to beat his defender off the dribble, then he's merely dribbling in space, which is basically all Hayward's ball handling skills will be good for in the NBA. A lot of people compare him to Mike Miller, which to me makes no sense. Miller's #1 asset has always been his ability to shoot off the dribble, something Hayward rarely does.

Also projects as a liability on defense. Seems like the only reason to draft him is as a spot up shooter -- but even there he's struggled during the last, most important part of the scouting process (this past year).

He's a smart defender who comes up with a lot of loose balls and plays the passing lanes well due to his length. He'll have to make the adjustment to guarding the perimeter more often and do a better job getting in a good defensive stance when he does. I'm not sure where you get the impression that the only reason to draft him would be as a spot up shooter, either.

Well, he's not going to play inside in the NBA. He's not quick enough to create separation using off the ball screens. He can't pull up off the dribble (at least he doesn't). What else is there for him to do?

I think Singler is much more advanced at creating his own offense (has better footwork and usually only needs one step),

Strongly disagree. He can hit a spot up jumper, but he struggles to convert on the move or in traffic around the rim, and doesn't do a good job getting to the free throw line.

Hayward shoots 5.8 FT/gm while being asked to handle the rock a lot on offense.
Singler shoots 5.2FT/gm in an offense where rarely is asked to handle the ball. Hayward is more adept at finishing around the rim, but how much of that is do to the difference in competition?

is a better spot up shooter statistically,

During one season, the most recent season, but one season nonetheless.

Well considering Hayward has only played 2 seasons, 1 season is a pretty big deal.

and plays with more intensity on both ends of the floor.

No, he doesn't. He's a much more fundamentally sound perimeter defender, but I don't see where you're coming up with the stuff about Hayward not being tough or playing with intensity.

[/quote]
That seems apparent to me if you watch each of them play.

[horaceworthy]

[He doesn't like physicality, not when he's on offense, and not when he's on defense.

I have no idea if he likes it, but he doesn't shy away from it, isn't afraid to go into a crowd for boards, and invites it on many of his forays into the paint. Did you also miss him bodying up Zoubek on the defensive end and denying him good post position? Usually when you come up with a take I disagree with I can at least see where you're coming from, but this one baffles me.

a good ball handler, but irrelevent for creating his own offense in the NBAJust about any player in the NBA can make the same cuts. That is fundamental basketball 101. No unique skillset is being utilized here.

Some guys don't know how to use screens or set up cuts to the basket. Hayward does. It also isn't just a matter of that, it's what he can do after the catch due to his ballhandling skills, smarts, body control and size.

Well, he's not going to play inside in the NBA. He's not quick enough to create separation using off the ball screens. He can't pull up off the dribble (at least he doesn't). What else is there for him to do?

Shoot coming off of screens, create coming off of screens, take advantage of seams opened up by ball movement, use his very good first step to take his man off the dribble, pick and roll, etc. Hayward possesses a versatile offensive skill set and he's a better athlete than you're giving him credit for.

Hayward shoots 5.8 FT/gm while being asked to handle the rock a lot on offense.
Singler shoots 5.2FT/gm in an offense where rarely is asked to handle the ball. Hayward is more adept at finishing around the rim, but how much of that is do to the difference in competition?

Hayward averaged .53 FTA/FGA against solid non-conference competition and in the tournament, and, as you pointed out, is more adept at finishing around the rim. Singler averaged .42 FTA/FGA. I also disagree that the there was such a vast disparity in how much each was asked to shoulder on offense.

Well considering Hayward has only played 2 seasons, 1 season is a pretty big deal.

Particularly when you get to pick which season to make a big deal out of.

That seems apparent to me if you watch each of them play.

It really shouldn't. You're letting Hayward's baby face and the Singler's vaguely reptilian visage fool you.

I like Singler, I just prefer the versatile offensive game and knack for tracking down loose balls that Hayward brings to the table and think he has more upside due to the combination of that and his superior (to Singler) length and athleticism.

[Krapinsky]

[He doesn't like physicality, not when he's on offense, and not when he's on defense.

I have no idea if he likes it, but he doesn't shy away from it, isn't afraid to go into a crowd for boards, and invites it on many of his forays into the paint. Did you also miss him bodying up Zoubek on the defensive end and denying him good post position? Usually when you come up with a take I disagree with I can at least see where you're coming from, but this one baffles me.

Did you see Lance Thomas put a hand in his face and watch him disappear?

a good ball handler, but irrelevent for creating his own offense in the NBAJust about any player in the NBA can make the same cuts. That is fundamental basketball 101. No unique skillset is being utilized here.

Some guys don't know how to use screens or set up cuts to the basket. Hayward does. It also isn't just a matter of that, it's what he can do after the catch due to his ballhandling skills, smarts, body control and size.

I just think you're making a mountain out of molehill here.

Well, he's not going to play inside in the NBA. He's not quick enough to create separation using off the ball screens. He can't pull up off the dribble (at least he doesn't). What else is there for him to do?

Shoot coming off of screens, create coming off of screens, take advantage of seams opened up by ball movement, use his very good first step to take his man off the dribble, pick and roll, etc. Hayward possesses a versatile offensive skill set and he's a better athlete than you're giving him credit for.

I agree with all that, but only as applied to the College game. He's well rounded, better than average at just about everything in college. However, I don't see any special skills that project to be better than average at the NBA level.

Hayward shoots 5.8 FT/gm while being asked to handle the rock a lot on offense.
Singler shoots 5.2FT/gm in an offense where rarely is asked to handle the ball. Hayward is more adept at finishing around the rim, but how much of that is do to the difference in competition?

Hayward averaged .53 FTA/FGA against solid non-conference competition and in the tournament, and, as you pointed out, is more adept at finishing around the rim. Singler averaged .42 FTA/FGA. I also disagree that the there was such a vast disparity in how much each was asked to shoulder on offense.

What's the sample size there? And even so, how much can you attribute to Duke's offense vs. Butler offense? It's hard to say one way or another. I would imagine (I'm not pretending to have statistical evidence here) that Hayward's usage rate is much higher than SIngler's, which should account for a slight FT discrepancy. Regardless, neither player is good at this, and at the next level this won't be an asset of either player. I'm not as high on Singler as you're making it seem, I just prefer him to Hayward.

Well considering Hayward has only played 2 seasons, 1 season is a pretty big deal.

Particularly when you get to pick which season to make a big deal out of.

Call me crazy, but shouldn't the last season that just happened be more important? Are we judging Willie Warren on this season or last? How about Craig Brackins? What argument can you provide that we should make a bigger deal out of his freshman year than his sophomore year. How does that make any sense at all?

That seems apparent to me if you watch each of them play.

It really shouldn't. You're letting Hayward's baby face and the Singler's vaguely reptilian visage fool you.
I like Singler, I just prefer the versatile offensive game and knack for tracking down loose balls that Hayward brings to the table and think he has more upside due to the combination of that and his superior (to Singler) length and athleticism.

[/quote]
I'm not sure on the length or athleiticsm, they look pretty close to me. Singler uses it more to his advantage it seems, as he alone of the two can make shots with defenders draped over him. I watch Hayward, and while he has some good body control, it always looks like he's going in slow motion to me.

[cpfsf]

I'm interested in drafted Lance Stephenson with the 2nd round because he looks more consistent, but his attitude makes me cringe. Why is it anyone from Lincoln High School will become overrated (Marbury, Telfair, Stephenson).

[TheProdigy]

I'm interested in drafted Lance Stephenson with the 2nd round because he looks more consistent, but his attitude makes me cringe. Why is it anyone from Lincoln High School will become overrated (Marbury, Telfair, Stephenson).

So you think he's overated? Why do you want to draft him then?

[moss_is_1]

I couldn't disagree more strongly.

Mayo measured in at 6'3.25" without shoes at the combine, with a 6'6" wingspan, 30.5" no step very, and 41" max vert.
Ellington was 6'4.25" without shoes, 6'6.5" wingspan, 31.5" no step, and 38" max vert. Really he's not a bad athlete...

[Krapinsky]

I couldn't disagree more strongly.

Mayo measured in at 6'3.25" without shoes at the combine, with a 6'6" wingspan, 30.5" no step very, and 41" max vert.
Ellington was 6'4.25" without shoes, 6'6.5" wingspan, 31.5" no step, and 38" max vert. Really he's not a bad athlete...

And which one of those measures speed and lateral quickness?

[moss_is_1]

my eyeballs, Ellington has shown he can be a pretty solid defender. Plus combine numbers are crap because Kevin Love had better agility drills than CP3.

[cpfsf]

I'm interested in drafted Lance Stephenson with the 2nd round because he looks more consistent, but his attitude makes me cringe. Why is it anyone from Lincoln High School will become overrated (Marbury, Telfair, Stephenson).

So you think he's overated? Why do you want to draft him then?

I mean these guys were overrated coming out of HS. Well, I guess Marbury actually became overrated after a few years in the NBA.

[Krapinsky]

my eyeballs, Ellington has shown he can be a pretty solid defender. Plus combine numbers are crap because Kevin Love had better agility drills than CP3.

I'm not the one quoting combine numbers. Funny how you use them to make your argument, but then when they go against your argument, oh it's your eyeballs.

http://www.visionworld.com/eye-exams/

[Esohny]

Uh oh. We better get to the lottery already, the former doctor is on a bit of a rampage lately due to lack of interesting discussion matter.