James Harden is a superstar

[CKRT]

You can but you were playing for Harden. I told you that you can ALWAYS turn the narrative to the other side.

Also Kobe was a rookie....an 18/19 year old rookie....and no one had declared him a superstar yet. Not like how people are so sure that Harden is. And this was against an 8th seeded Lakers team that didn't even have their best player on the court. Utah went to the finals that year. Big difference.

See how we can go tit for tat. Why don't the Harden apologists take the L tonight and throttle back on all the superstar talk.....

Narrative is subject to constant changing of what sounds like a nice story. That's the point.

You seem to be missing my point. One game does not determine a player. I understand Kobe was a rookie, but I'm using hyperbole. I'm not a Harden apologist either, but if you want to keep using ad hominem attacks be my guest. Just of curiosity, remind me again what your issue with Harden being a superstar is? If I remember correctly it was either based on the amount of marketing revenue he generated or you were being silly about the definition of the word.

His numbers have improved tremendously since last season, mostly due to his increased role. However, his play has fallen off quite a bit since the all-star break. Often settling for bad shots and dribbling out the clock.

I don't think that he is top-10 status and I sincerely hope that he hasn't been buying into his own hype.

Why don't you think he's top 10? He has a pretty clear argument for top 5.

[G35]

Funny thing is, scoring in the pick and roll is a great thing. Teams have trouble taking the P&R away, that's why it's been a huge staple in basketball for so long. It's not like teams don't try to disrupt his P&R every single night.

If you take away his ability to get to the rim and finish, draw fouls, or hit the 3(and his ability to create for others), then he's got nothing!! Flawed!!

But the modern P&R is not like the classic Stockton/Malone or even Nash/Amare. This is really an iso situation where he is trying to get a step on the defender and create mostly for himself. Watching the game tonight Harden mostly P&R with Asik (who can't hit a shot other than a dunk) and if he didn't have an advantage he threw the ball back out to the perimeter and then drifted for the rest of the play. Yes that's going to work against the Hornets, Wizards, and Kings of the league but the better teams will be able to contain that and when the ref's aren't as liberal with the whistle, as they weren't tonight, Harden looked very ordinary and not very good under pressure.

That's why they took the ball out of Harden's hands after repeated lost possessions and gave it to Chandler Parsons to create something......

[tsherkin]

I think that without thunderous performance, it's usually premature to call a first-time starter a superstar.

I think for a young guy making the transition to full-time starter and offensive anchor, he's doing a great job. There's room between bum and superstar and I think calling Harden an All-Star is about as accurate as it gets. He needs to round out his game a bit and he needs to show something in the playoffs.

This last game? Not that relevant to his overall status. Certainly not a nail in the house of superstardom but Bryant's entire NBA Finals didn't unmake him, so neither will this game impede Harden.

The term 'superstar' is ill-defined but personally, I don't like labelling someone a superstar on the basis of one season, even one as good as Harden's. He has flaws in his game, evident ones, but so did almost every player as they began starting for the first time. I think people just want to rush into labels and in so doing, they cheapen the term. Superstardom, to me, generally means a guy who belongs in meaningful ATL consideration and is clearly one of the very best players in the league. Harden isn't clearly the best at his position and while you can make arguments for him in the top 5, you can do the same for the top 10... And I don't believe there to be ten superstars in the league at any given moment.

Edit: I think the playoffs and if/how he develops over the next season or two will be the ultimate determinant here.

Should also add that though he scored 30 points, he played around 45 minutes and was 3/11 FG and 2/2 FT for 8 points in the 4Q and OT last night. Couldn't buy a mid-range jumper or a three and struggled against Dwight.

[JordansBulls]

This year's version of Harden on OKC this season in place of Martin are they favorites over Miami or would Miami still be the favorites?

[G35]

You seem to be missing my point. One game does not determine a player. I understand Kobe was a rookie, but I'm using hyperbole. I'm not a Harden apologist either, but if you want to keep using ad hominem attacks be my guest. Just of curiosity, remind me again what your issue with Harden being a superstar is? If I remember correctly it was either based on the amount of marketing revenue he generated or you were being silly about the definition of the word.

Why don't you think he's top 10? He has a pretty clear argument for top 5.[/quote]


You want to know my argument against Harden? tsherkin summed up my arguments against Harden (and me tsherkin have had our share of disagreements)

I think that without thunderous performance, it's usually premature to call a first-time starter a superstar.

I think for a young guy making the transition to full-time starter and offensive anchor, he's doing a great job. There's room between bum and superstar and I think calling Harden an All-Star is about as accurate as it gets. He needs to round out his game a bit and he needs to show something in the playoffs.

This last game? Not that relevant to his overall status. Certainly not a nail in the house of superstardom but Bryant's entire NBA Finals didn't unmake him, so neither will this game impede Harden.

The term 'superstar' is ill-defined but personally, I don't like labelling someone a superstar on the basis of one season, even one as good as Harden's. He has flaws in his game, evident ones, but so did almost every player as they began starting for the first time. I think people just want to rush into labels and in so doing, they cheapen the term. Superstardom, to me, generally means a guy who belongs in meaningful ATL consideration and is clearly one of the very best players in the league. Harden isn't clearly the best at his position and while you can make arguments for him in the top 5, you can do the same for the top 10... And I don't believe there to be ten superstars in the league at any given moment.

Edit: I think the playoffs and if/how he develops over the next season or two will be the ultimate determinant here.

Should also add that though he scored 30 points, he played around 45 minutes and was 3/11 FG and 2/2 FT for 8 points in the 4Q and OT last night. Couldn't buy a mid-range jumper or a three and struggled against Dwight.

I am very restrictive on who I label superstar and it's generally no more than 3-4 players at any one time. Right now I only have two superstars and those two should be obvious. I think Harden has more to prove to be called a superstar. He's a force, I'll give him that, but he has definite flaws in his game that keep him below the very best.....

[tsherkin]

I need a lottery ticket: G35 and I agree...

[rockmanslim]

What's ATL consideration? Is that a typo? Did you mean ATG?

[tsherkin]

Not a typo: "all-time list."

[rockmanslim]

ah ok got it.

[SideshowBob]

It's go-time.

[bondom34]

It's go-time.

6-19 through 3 quarters, anyone tell him?

[SideshowBob]

That was brutal.

[fallacy]

Harden vs OKC this year:

46 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists, 3 TO, 14-19 fg, 7-8 3pt
25 points, 3 rebounds, 1 assists, 4 TO, 6-17 fg, 2-7 3pt
17 points, 2 rebounds, 3 assists, 3 TO, 3-16 fg, 2-5 3pt
20 points, 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 TO, 6-19 fg, 1-6 3pt


You can obviously tell what the average game is and which is the outlier

[PCProductions]

Yikes, an absolutely TERRIBLE game from Harden tonight when I thought he'd be fired up to play well. Then again, from what I saw, it looked like he was a little TOO fired up. That was just a mess of a game in general from Houston. I hope it's more competitive than that in the these upcoming games.

[Volcano]

To be a superstar, he needs to 1) make a mark against tough D or in pressure situations (see last years finals)

2) Have the same impact on D at least up to Lebron/Wade's level

Right now he's still tier two.

He still has these two same problems..although, I guess his D doesn't have to be THAT good..it shouldn't suck though.

[richboy]

Yikes, an absolutely TERRIBLE game from Harden tonight when I thought he'd be fired up to play well. Then again, from what I saw, it looked like he was a little TOO fired up. That was just a mess of a game in general from Houston. I hope it's more competitive than that in the these upcoming games.

6/19 is pretty much an average Harden game lately. The last 2 months he sub 39% from the field. His shooting 4 of the 6 months of the year pretty bad.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lits/2013/

[kingkirk]

Yikes, an absolutely TERRIBLE game from Harden tonight when I thought he'd be fired up to play well. Then again, from what I saw, it looked like he was a little TOO fired up. That was just a mess of a game in general from Houston. I hope it's more competitive than that in the these upcoming games.

6/19 is pretty much an average Harden game lately. The last 2 months he sub 39% from the field. His shooting 4 of the 6 months of the year pretty bad.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lits/2013/

You beat me too it.

He has been really poor efficiency wise over his last 20 games. His basic numbers have been there, but the efficiency is all over the place.

His performance to date is to be expected based on his recent output, and also Houston's.

[The Infamous1]

Typical harden game when he can't get the pick and roll working

[dreamchaser]

Yikes, an absolutely TERRIBLE game from Harden tonight when I thought he'd be fired up to play well. Then again, from what I saw, it looked like he was a little TOO fired up. That was just a mess of a game in general from Houston. I hope it's more competitive than that in the these upcoming games.

Sadly I think that's going to be the trend of this series. OKC's defense seems to be to trapped Harden's pick and roll and double Harden as much as possible. The only way I see Harden having a good game is if OKC gets lazy and just decides to let him go off...

[Mutnt]

Haven't watched the entire game but it's pretty clear that OKC is just a far superior team, while the Rockets can be happy they've made it to the postseason in the first place. Harden might have a good game or two but overall, this will be over quickly. The Rockets are severely outmatched in talent, depth, experience, basically almost everything except Harden.