PC Board OT Thread Take 4 [No Politics]

[falcolombardi]

There is somethingh to be said about how basketball fans have historically been privated from the coolest thingh in the world of sports, competitive international tournaments. National team ones specially

Because for most of its history basketball has been so thoroughly american dominated the sport has missed in the one thingh that imo drives soccer popularity (and to a lesser degree more regional sports like rugby and cricket) the most

The non americam players have missed on winning international tournaments and The american players have missed getting any merit from winning them (with all the risk of criticism flr losing)

After 2002- 2004-2006 this fortunately changed and now powerhouse countries now they can aim to more than a silver medal or a world cup 2nd place which makes it all the more exciting

And american players can actually get merit for winning them rather than it being just all risk/no glory.

kobe got a ton of credit for the redeem team in 2008 and durant for holding the fort in tokio, gobert almost got to taste the glory of leading france to a gold medal over usa

Ginobili and argentina players became legends and pau gasol and spain generation too, ricky rubio in 2019 to a lesser extent

and now players like jokic, giannis (and embiid?) See the possibilty of winming a gold medal over usa and how huge it would be for their legacies (and just plain awrsome overall) and we are gonna get a eurobasket with giannis and jokic

Honestly, the best thingh that can happen to basketball, including usa, is that the united states loses this tournaments once in a while so the tournaments become even more of a big event for american public

Gridiron football doesnt have competition for usa, they are not good enough at soccer to win thinghs and baseball national competitions are a joke not taken seriously

Basketball could become to usa what soccer is to most countries and it would be awesome for the sport popularity if basketball became the team sport to hold national pride for

I love your post and agree with much of what you're saying.

I will say, I think the US has a lot of pride about basketball, and you see it with the some of the nativist streaks that are showing themselves particularly amongst the players right now.

But to me that only makes more important for the US to realize that they can't just dominate the world by deciding to finally show up any more. It's time for us Basketball-Americans to grow up.

2024 has the potential to be a inflexion point

2004 can be seen as a fluke to a degree, attributed to usa getting cocky and outdated in their approach (mostly true)

specially because that argentina probably was not as overall good/talented as spain or modern serbia as we saw in other tournaments (in some ways it was really bad luck on spain part they were not the team to beat usa at the olympics as they were the best non usa team of the era by far)

But if it happens a second time + the last 4 mvps and counting being won by non americam superstars and so much of the new crop of stars dominating the nba being non americans.... it will be even more of a wake up call than 2004 was

If france beats usa in paris 2 years from now it could be a watershed moment for france, usa and frankly world basketball

[Doctor MJ]

There is somethingh to be said about how basketball fans have historically been privated from the coolest thingh in the world of sports, competitive international tournaments. National team ones specially

Because for most of its history basketball has been so thoroughly american dominated the sport has missed in the one thingh that imo drives soccer popularity (and to a lesser degree more regional sports like rugby and cricket) the most

The non americam players have missed on winning international tournaments and The american players have missed getting any merit from winning them (with all the risk of criticism flr losing)

After 2002- 2004-2006 this fortunately changed and now powerhouse countries now they can aim to more than a silver medal or a world cup 2nd place which makes it all the more exciting

And american players can actually get merit for winning them rather than it being just all risk/no glory.

kobe got a ton of credit for the redeem team in 2008 and durant for holding the fort in tokio, gobert almost got to taste the glory of leading france to a gold medal over usa

Ginobili and argentina players became legends and pau gasol and spain generation too, ricky rubio in 2019 to a lesser extent

and now players like jokic, giannis (and embiid?) See the possibilty of winming a gold medal over usa and how huge it would be for their legacies (and just plain awrsome overall) and we are gonna get a eurobasket with giannis and jokic

Honestly, the best thingh that can happen to basketball, including usa, is that the united states loses this tournaments once in a while so the tournaments become even more of a big event for american public

Gridiron football doesnt have competition for usa, they are not good enough at soccer to win thinghs and baseball national competitions are a joke not taken seriously

Basketball could become to usa what soccer is to most countries and it would be awesome for the sport popularity if basketball became the team sport to hold national pride for

I love your post and agree with much of what you're saying.

I will say, I think the US has a lot of pride about basketball, and you see it with the some of the nativist streaks that are showing themselves particularly amongst the players right now.

But to me that only makes more important for the US to realize that they can't just dominate the world by deciding to finally show up any more. It's time for us Basketball-Americans to grow up.

One of my strongest beliefs is that the internationalization of basketball would increase rapidly if you

1. Eliminated the draft
2. Eliminated rookie scale contracts.
3. Kept the soft cap

You'd see a lot of teams shut off of signing the top American prospects set up basketball camps all over the world to identify potential players. And I do believe there is a ton of talent out there

I think you're probably right. I don't think the average NBA team will likely ever want that though.

[falcolombardi]

I love your post and agree with much of what you're saying.

I will say, I think the US has a lot of pride about basketball, and you see it with the some of the nativist streaks that are showing themselves particularly amongst the players right now.

But to me that only makes more important for the US to realize that they can't just dominate the world by deciding to finally show up any more. It's time for us Basketball-Americans to grow up.

One of my strongest beliefs is that the internationalization of basketball would increase rapidly if you

1. Eliminated the draft
2. Eliminated rookie scale contracts.
3. Kept the soft cap

You'd see a lot of teams shut off of signing the top American prospects set up basketball camps all over the world to identify potential players. And I do believe there is a ton of talent out there

I think you're probably right. I don't think the average NBA team will likely ever want that though.

Unlikely, the money and visibility for sponsorships (and players also care about competing with the best) of the nba is still too much more than european leagues

Euro leagues would need to start being able to offer much bigger contracts than currently they can

The rookie scale as it is makes rookies underpaid, if anythingh elininating it would mean the best rookies could get more money from nba teams that currently the cba allows to offer

[sp6r=underrated]

One of my strongest beliefs is that the internationalization of basketball would increase rapidly if you

1. Eliminated the draft
2. Eliminated rookie scale contracts.
3. Kept the soft cap

You'd see a lot of teams shut off of signing the top American prospects set up basketball camps all over the world to identify potential players. And I do believe there is a ton of talent out there

I think you're probably right. I don't think the average NBA team will likely ever want that though.

Unlikely, the money and visibility for sponsorships (and players also care about competing with the best) of the nba is still too much more than european leagues

Euro leagues would need to start being able to offer much bigger contracts than currently they can

The rookie scale as it is makes rookies underpaid, if anythingh elininating it would mean the best rookies could get more money from nba teams that currently the cba allows to offer

I'm talking about the NBA doing this. Meaning you can't tank for Player X. And since you can't just tank I picture basketball camps being set up all over the world by NBA teams to identify the best players

[falcolombardi]

I think you're probably right. I don't think the average NBA team will likely ever want that though.

Unlikely, the money and visibility for sponsorships (and players also care about competing with the best) of the nba is still too much more than european leagues

Euro leagues would need to start being able to offer much bigger contracts than currently they can

The rookie scale as it is makes rookies underpaid, if anythingh elininating it would mean the best rookies could get more money from nba teams that currently the cba allows to offer

I'm talking about the NBA doing this. Meaning you can't tank for Player X. And since you can't just tank I picture basketball camps being set up all over the world by NBA teams to identify the best players

Why do this when they can just buy them off foreing teams?

If anythingh eliminating the draft system makes this easier

Currently the nba doesnt have a way to get players under contract in foreign leagues directly as the system doesnt allow them to just pay euro teams the 5-10 millions release clauses as it is done in nom american sports

Euro players who are drafted or want to go to the nba but are under contract have to wait for their contract to end -or- pay out of pocket themselves tp their teams

[sp6r=underrated]

Unlikely, the money and visibility for sponsorships (and players also care about competing with the best) of the nba is still too much more than european leagues

Euro leagues would need to start being able to offer much bigger contracts than currently they can

The rookie scale as it is makes rookies underpaid, if anythingh elininating it would mean the best rookies could get more money from nba teams that currently the cba allows to offer

I'm talking about the NBA doing this. Meaning you can't tank for Player X. And since you can't just tank I picture basketball camps being set up all over the world by NBA teams to identify the best players

Why do this when they can just buy them off foreing teams?

If anythingh eliminating the draft system makes this easier

Currently the nba doesnt have a way to get players under contract in foreign leagues directly as the system doesnt allow them to just pay euro teams the 5-10 millions release clauses as it is done in nom american sports

Euro players who are drafted or want to go to the nba but are under contract have to wait for their contract to end -or- pay out of pocket themselves tp their teams

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm getting at. I'm talking about increasing the percentage of NBA players that were born overseas. If there was no draft you would see teams have to actually work to find talent rather than just draft em. Yes there would be signings off of international teams but there would also be shrewd clubs that recognize there are a lot of countries full of NBA caliber athletes and go out there and sign em.

In other words, the laziness, and I use that term specifically of NBA basketball talent recruitment is a product of the draft. There is no need for NBA teams to look outside established channels so they don't

[falcolombardi]

Is a shame that batum is aging cause a gobert-embiid?/wenbayama?-batum-fournier-dunno lineup in fiba would be brutal to beat in a 1 game series

If we get somethingh like that in 2024 vs team usa vs giannis with greece vs serbia with jokic vs luka doncic slovenian show it would be the peak of fiba basketball imo

[Jaivl]

Is a shame that batum is aging cause a gobert-embiid?/wenbayama?-batum-fournier-dunno lineup in fiba would be brutal to beat in a 1 game series

If we get somethingh like that in 2024 vs team usa vs giannis with greece vs serbia with jokic vs luka doncic slovenian show it would be the peak of fiba basketball imo

Lol that's if Greece can even qualify to the Olympics. Spain being old as **** gives them a bigger chance, but they're not even better than Lithuania or Turkey.

[Dr Positivity]

It's wild that Juan Soto will probably make more salary in his career than Lebron and Brady despite playing in a less popular sport, one where one player can't make nearly the same impact, and being a less goat-y talent (sounds to me like Soto is on track for maybe a Miguel Cabrera level career or something?)

[HeartBreakKid]

It's wild that Juan Soto will probably make more salary in his career than Lebron and Brady despite playing in a less popular sport, one where one player can't make nearly the same impact, and being a less goat-y talent (sounds to me like Soto is on track for maybe a Miguel Cabrera level career or something?)

Baseball is almost certainly more popular than American Football. It's the most popular sport in a handful of countries including one of the most populated ones in the world, as well as fairly popular in USA itself.


Though this doesn't apply to Tom Brady's position, the average baseball player does impact his team more than the average football player. (I'm pretty sure)

[Dr Positivity]

Baseball is almost certainly more popular than American Football. It's the most popular sport in a handful of countries including one of the most populated ones in the world, as well as fairly popular in USA itself.

Maybe if you include baseball as a whole but if you take into account which countries are watching specifically NFL vs MLB, NFL might be performing surprisingly well compared to it considering these countries don't have their own popular American Football, unlike say Japanese watching their own baseball leagues instead of MLB.

NFL has higher franchise value than MLB teams (who are relatively close to NBA) which is a good way to look at it I guess, so Soto potentially making hundreds millions more than Brady in his career has everything to do with other factors.

[HeartBreakKid]

Baseball is almost certainly more popular than American Football. It's the most popular sport in a handful of countries including one of the most populated ones in the world, as well as fairly popular in USA itself.

Maybe if you include baseball as a whole but if you take into account which countries are watching specifically NFL vs MLB, NFL might be performing surprisingly well compared to it considering these countries don't have their own popular American Football, unlike say Japanese watching their own baseball leagues instead of MLB.

NFL has higher franchise value than MLB teams (who are relatively close to NBA) which is a good way to look at it I guess, so Soto potentially making hundreds millions more than Brady in his career has everything to do with other factors.

Japan watches their own league but there is still reasonable support for MLB. MLB is consumed in every baseball watching nation, same as NBA (I think MLB is probably more popular in baseball countries than the NBA is in Eastern Europe).

NFL franchises having higher value than nearly every franchise, and it's hardly the most watched sport in the world. NFL franchises are worth a lot because NFL games are set up in a way that they can set up an absolutely absurd amount of ads, doubled with the ads are targeting Americans who are the biggest consumers.


Sure to the bold, but popularity isn't really one of them. Floyd Mayweather makes more money than all those guys did and boxing is a niche sport. I'm just nitpicking the popularity point.

I am fairly certain Lebron James makes more than most baseball players do on a year by year basis. Obviously the NBA has rules that prevent players from getting signed 4-5+ years where that doesn't exist in baseball. In a vacuum someone like Lebron would have earned more than his baseball peer. Baseball players just have longer contracts.

[HeartBreakKid]

Random question Dr.Postiivty or anyone else of interest - is Football (grid iron) more popular than basketball still in Canada?

[Dr Positivity]

I am fairly certain Lebron James makes more than most baseball players do on a year by year basis. Obviously the NBA has rules that prevent players from getting signed 4-5+ years where that doesn't exist in baseball. In a vacuum someone like Lebron would have earned more than his baseball peer. Baseball players just have longer contracts.

Yes, I may have forgotten to take into account Lebron was making much less earlier than his career than now. Doncic will probably make more in his career than Lebron for the same reason.

[Dr Positivity]

Random question Dr.Postiivty or anyone else of interest - is Football (grid iron) more popular than basketball still in Canada?

When you combine CFL and NFL fans then for sure. NFL alone vs NBA is probably closer, Raptors would have more fans than the top bandwagon NFL teams, but I think NFL overall may still be more popular.

[Doctor MJ]

Baseball is almost certainly more popular than American Football. It's the most popular sport in a handful of countries including one of the most populated ones in the world, as well as fairly popular in USA itself.

Maybe if you include baseball as a whole but if you take into account which countries are watching specifically NFL vs MLB, NFL might be performing surprisingly well compared to it considering these countries don't have their own popular American Football, unlike say Japanese watching their own baseball leagues instead of MLB.

NFL has higher franchise value than MLB teams (who are relatively close to NBA) which is a good way to look at it I guess, so Soto potentially making hundreds millions more than Brady in his career has everything to do with other factors.

Yup.

Baseball may be more popular than gridiron football, but the NFL is bigger than the MLB, so it is weird to see baseball players getting the biggest money.

My general thought is this:

Because baseball is a game whose outcome is mostly determined by chance, there isn't the same need to protect the small markets from the big markets. While I'm sure small markets would appreciate more protections to be put into place, it's not a situation where the parity falls apart without these rules. Put two teams out there with MLB level players but where one team is better at all 9 positions, the worse team still probably ends up winning the game 25+% of the time. Do the same in basketball - with appropriate fit and strategy - and the inferior team odds of winning are closer to 5%, and the entirety of that 5% owes it's existence to the 3-point line which adds more variance in than basketball used to have.

So then, the lack of true big value that baseball players has arguably led to them getting paid more money. Ironic.

[sp6r=underrated]

Sports leagues by revenue:
NFL: 14 billion
MLB: 9.8 billion
NBA: 7.7 billion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_sports_leagues_by_revenue

MLB despite being less popular generates significantly more revenue than the NBA. The real mystery is why are NFL salaries so low and the reason is the same reason why baseball's salaries are so high: strength of the union.

Simply put the NFLPA is garbage. They accept things such as a hard cap, small share of football related income (With little ability to verify) rookie scale contracts, franchise tag, non-guaranteed contracts as the norm, strong coaches, etc., that no powerful union representing high human capital* workers would accept.

The NFLPA accepts this because unionization efforts failed in the NFL. Football fans are willing to watch replacement players. MLB tried it but got laughed out of court. The NBA wouldn't even bother because no one would watch. The reason replacement players work in the NFL is the dirty secret of the sport: a significant % of its fans don't understand it. Short careers make labor stoppages far more costly. MLB career last a lot longer so their players are more willing to strike. NFL revenue is almost entirerly national. That makes it much easier to keep the owners unified. They face less of the divisions that plagues owners in the NBA and way less of the revenue sharing battles in baseball. All of this and more explains why NFL players are so underpaid.

NBA union is a middle point between NFL and MLB unions. And is the primary factor for why NBA superstars are so underpaid. The NBA owners created max contracts, and the rookie scale, as a way to divide the union. By agreeing to underpay rookies/superstars, the owners were able to take a bigger percentage of the pie while giving the median player a raise.

Long-term I'm not sure how stable this equilibrium is. Basketball is a global game. Eventually enterprising businesspersons will form a successful league in Europe which will be able to poach rookies from the NBA. The other risk for the NBA is the collapse of the amateur model in college. If college basketball becomes fully pro with salaries. Some of those programs will eventually have revenue streams to offer better deals than the rookie scale contract.

* I know some people find the term human capital demeaning but you need some term to differentiate workers with in-demand skills and those without. Whatever replacement term is used will eventually have the same connotations as human capial. Human capital works fine so I use it.

[sp6r=underrated]

One other example of NFLPA weakness: there are still teams in Green Bay and Buffalo. If the union had any power those teams would have been moved to more attractive cities.

Both MLB and NBA have teams in locations most players dislike but neither has anything similar to Buffalo or Green Bay. If you put an MLB/NBA team there they faced significant talent retention problems beyond the ones caused by poor revenue streams.

[falcolombardi]

I havr thought how kinda weird is that i am not an american, i dont care about oklahoma the place itself and only becane a thunder fan cause i loved their players back when i was in highschool

Yet if they left the city and moved to pittsburgh or whatever i would stop caring about them, they would just be a different team to me even if they kept the name and colours

Hell, even staying in okc but changing names may do it

I have somethingh similar with being a inter milan fan. I am not italian and only liked them after their really bad ass 2010 run, byt if for some reason they changed cities american franchise style i dont think i would care about them

[Texas Chuck]

One other example of NFLPA weakness: there are still teams in Green Bay and Buffalo. If the union had any power those teams would have been moved to more attractive cities.

Both MLB and NBA have teams in locations most players dislike but neither has anything similar to Buffalo or Green Bay. If you put an MLB/NBA team there they faced significant talent retention problems beyond the ones caused by poor revenue streams.

This has nothing to do with the union. This has to do with every single NFL team is in the black strictly from TV money. So they don't have to pull teams from smaller markets to chase every last local dollar. Most other sports leagues are largely regional--they have regional TV deals and fans are watching one specific team much more than they are watching the league as a whole.

The NFL transcends that. It only has national TV deals and we see in the ratings, if its NFL people are tuning in regardless of teams playing. Yes the Cowboys and a couple of teams give a bump, but the Shield is the product much more than the teams or players.