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JRoy wrote:

JB7 wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:
Cause Dame is better than Siakam lol.

Jimmy does everything Siakam does but at a higher level. They need a dynamic guard, not another forward.

Dame is a better scorer, but that is it.

And all the things Jimmy does better than Siakam, does not eliminate the need to have more than one player that can do those things, whether that is score, rebound, defend, etc.

The only big man they really have is Bam. And he is 6’9.

They are a very undersized team. They have managed to get by, but that does not negate need.

And Dame is not that dynamic a guard. Especially at age 33.

Lillard just posted the best season of his career for 32 ppg at .56efg %, including a 71 point game.

How much more “dynamic” do you need?

ArthurVandelay wrote:Raps have been linked to Bogi before. September 16 before he can be traded. But he shoots pretty good contested…

Read on Twitter

JB7 wrote:

JRoy wrote:

JB7 wrote:
Dame is a better scorer, but that is it.

And all the things Jimmy does better than Siakam, does not eliminate the need to have more than one player that can do those things, whether that is score, rebound, defend, etc.

The only big man they really have is Bam. And he is 6’9.

They are a very undersized team. They have managed to get by, but that does not negate need.

And Dame is not that dynamic a guard. Especially at age 33.

Lillard just posted the best season of his career for 32 ppg at .56efg %, including a 71 point game.

How much more “dynamic” do you need?

Yes an amazing scorer. I think of a dynamic guard being able to do more than just score.

Keep in mind he also had his worst shooting season (outside of his rookie season) the season prior to last, because of injury. But that is the risk with a 33yr old going into his 13th season.

docholliday99 wrote:

SpezNc wrote:

JRoy wrote:
Hate it for POR.

Swaps are worthless or close to it and THJr is a bad contract.

Pass.

I understand that you don’t like that proposal. Mock proposal and especially multi team mock trade are hard to do.

When i look at the proposal made by another fanbase, I rarely like it. The Siakam mock trade were abysmal from my perspective.

But what would you change?

It’s too easy saying “pass” IMHO.

Especially when we know Portland has minimal leverage and Miami not that much assets to give. Also it’s almost certain that you are going to get a bad contract to match Lillard massive contract.

It’s massively unlikely that such a blockbuster multi deal happens. It’s already hard to do a trade with two players.

But I think it was a solid try.

I know we think Portland has little leverage but really, even though I think this whole thing was mainly mishandled by the Blazers, as a rebuilding team, the Blazers do have the luxury of waiting - Lillard isn't going anywhere unless Portland agrees. Lillard and the Heat are the ones that can't wait; at some point, the Heat will have to move on to a different player to maximize whatever time Butler has left. In the meantime, the Blazers will continue to struggle and in the process, retain their frp. Might be a good thing for the Blazers to wait and let the Miami move on; create more opportunity for the Blazers and will either have Lillard return or his list will expand.

WaltFrazier wrote:

ArthurVandelay wrote:Raps have been linked to Bogi before. September 16 before he can be traded. But he shoots pretty good contested…

Read on Twitter

On a side note this would have been good fodder for the Maxey-Fred debates

JB7 wrote:

docholliday99 wrote:

SpezNc wrote:
I understand that you don’t like that proposal. Mock proposal and especially multi team mock trade are hard to do.

When i look at the proposal made by another fanbase, I rarely like it. The Siakam mock trade were abysmal from my perspective.

But what would you change?

It’s too easy saying “pass” IMHO.

Especially when we know Portland has minimal leverage and Miami not that much assets to give. Also it’s almost certain that you are going to get a bad contract to match Lillard massive contract.

It’s massively unlikely that such a blockbuster multi deal happens. It’s already hard to do a trade with two players.

But I think it was a solid try.

I know we think Portland has little leverage but really, even though I think this whole thing was mainly mishandled by the Blazers, as a rebuilding team, the Blazers do have the luxury of waiting - Lillard isn't going anywhere unless Portland agrees. Lillard and the Heat are the ones that can't wait; at some point, the Heat will have to move on to a different player to maximize whatever time Butler has left. In the meantime, the Blazers will continue to struggle and in the process, retain their frp. Might be a good thing for the Blazers to wait and let the Miami move on; create more opportunity for the Blazers and will either have Lillard return or his list will expand.

There is huge risk for Portland in not dealing soon with Miami. The Heat could shift and trade for someone else, and the package the Heat are offering might be the best Portland sees, because Miami is desperate to compete immediately.

And if the Blazers wait with Dame, the risk is age and injuries. If he sustains another injury like two seasons ago, no team is giving Portland anything for that contract.

If I’m Masai, I jump in and offer Pascal & GTJ for Herro, Lowry and all the FRPs and swaps being discussed in the Dame deal. Miami in this deal at least gets players that can help them now and in the future (a core of Butler, Pascal, Bam, and GTJ is solid). And Raps clear salary to be able to sign the next gen (Barnes, OG, Precious) while getting an upgrade on GTJ in Herro. Raps move forward with a core of Barnes, OG, Herro, Dick, Precious and Poeltl (until hopefully Koloko can fill the C role).

JB7 wrote:

docholliday99 wrote:

SpezNc wrote:
I understand that you don’t like that proposal. Mock proposal and especially multi team mock trade are hard to do.

When i look at the proposal made by another fanbase, I rarely like it. The Siakam mock trade were abysmal from my perspective.

But what would you change?

It’s too easy saying “pass” IMHO.

Especially when we know Portland has minimal leverage and Miami not that much assets to give. Also it’s almost certain that you are going to get a bad contract to match Lillard massive contract.

It’s massively unlikely that such a blockbuster multi deal happens. It’s already hard to do a trade with two players.

But I think it was a solid try.

I know we think Portland has little leverage but really, even though I think this whole thing was mainly mishandled by the Blazers, as a rebuilding team, the Blazers do have the luxury of waiting - Lillard isn't going anywhere unless Portland agrees. Lillard and the Heat are the ones that can't wait; at some point, the Heat will have to move on to a different player to maximize whatever time Butler has left. In the meantime, the Blazers will continue to struggle and in the process, retain their frp. Might be a good thing for the Blazers to wait and let the Miami move on; create more opportunity for the Blazers and will either have Lillard return or his list will expand.

There is huge risk for Portland in not dealing soon with Miami. The Heat could shift and trade for someone else, and the package the Heat are offering might be the best Portland sees, because Miami is desperate to compete immediately.

And if the Blazers wait with Dame, the risk is age and injuries. If he sustains another injury like two seasons ago, no team is giving Portland anything for that contract.

If I’m Masai, I jump in and offer Pascal & GTJ for Herro, Lowry and all the FRPs and swaps being discussed in the Dame deal. Miami in this deal at least gets players that can help them now and in the future (a core of Butler, Pascal, Bam, and GTJ is solid). And Raps clear salary to be able to sign the next gen (Barnes, OG, Precious) while getting an upgrade on GTJ in Herro. Raps move forward with a core of Barnes, OG, Herro, Dick, Precious and Poeltl (until hopefully Koloko can fill the C role).

JRoy wrote:

JB7 wrote:

docholliday99 wrote:
I know we think Portland has little leverage but really, even though I think this whole thing was mainly mishandled by the Blazers, as a rebuilding team, the Blazers do have the luxury of waiting - Lillard isn't going anywhere unless Portland agrees. Lillard and the Heat are the ones that can't wait; at some point, the Heat will have to move on to a different player to maximize whatever time Butler has left. In the meantime, the Blazers will continue to struggle and in the process, retain their frp. Might be a good thing for the Blazers to wait and let the Miami move on; create more opportunity for the Blazers and will either have Lillard return or his list will expand.

There is huge risk for Portland in not dealing soon with Miami. The Heat could shift and trade for someone else, and the package the Heat are offering might be the best Portland sees, because Miami is desperate to compete immediately.

And if the Blazers wait with Dame, the risk is age and injuries. If he sustains another injury like two seasons ago, no team is giving Portland anything for that contract.

If I’m Masai, I jump in and offer Pascal & GTJ for Herro, Lowry and all the FRPs and swaps being discussed in the Dame deal. Miami in this deal at least gets players that can help them now and in the future (a core of Butler, Pascal, Bam, and GTJ is solid). And Raps clear salary to be able to sign the next gen (Barnes, OG, Precious) while getting an upgrade on GTJ in Herro. Raps move forward with a core of Barnes, OG, Herro, Dick, Precious and Poeltl (until hopefully Koloko can fill the C role).

There’s not much risk of injury if he isn’t playing.

ill-Will03 wrote:Y’all really think we’re getting Herro, Bufkin and AJ for a expiring Pascal?

JB7 wrote:

HumbleRen wrote:

JB7 wrote:What I don’t get is why, if Pascal is on the market, would Miami not go after him, rather than Dame. Dame is an amazing shooter, and clutch, but with Pascal they get so much more than just scoring. Size, rebounding, D, younger, cheaper, and he has actually been a #2 on a championship club. Plus, the one elite thing Dame does, overlaps with their current star - both clutch scorers. If it comes down to who is taking the last shot, who is it, Dame or Jimmy?

Cause Dame is better than Siakam lol.

Jimmy does everything Siakam does but at a higher level. They need a dynamic guard, not another forward.

Dame is a better scorer, but that is it.

And all the things Jimmy does better than Siakam, does not eliminate the need to have more than one player that can do those things, whether that is score, rebound, defend, etc.

The only big man they really have is Bam. And he is 6’9.

They are a very undersized team. They have managed to get by, but that does not negate need.

And Dame is not that dynamic a guard. Especially at age 33.

johanliebert wrote:

WaltFrazier wrote:

ArthurVandelay wrote:Raps have been linked to Bogi before. September 16 before he can be traded. But he shoots pretty good contested…

Read on Twitter

On a side note this would have been good fodder for the Maxey-Fred debates

You guys spent all year cherry picking stats. He’s gone move on.

LarSiN wrote:

JB7 wrote:

docholliday99 wrote:
I know we think Portland has little leverage but really, even though I think this whole thing was mainly mishandled by the Blazers, as a rebuilding team, the Blazers do have the luxury of waiting - Lillard isn't going anywhere unless Portland agrees. Lillard and the Heat are the ones that can't wait; at some point, the Heat will have to move on to a different player to maximize whatever time Butler has left. In the meantime, the Blazers will continue to struggle and in the process, retain their frp. Might be a good thing for the Blazers to wait and let the Miami move on; create more opportunity for the Blazers and will either have Lillard return or his list will expand.

There is huge risk for Portland in not dealing soon with Miami. The Heat could shift and trade for someone else, and the package the Heat are offering might be the best Portland sees, because Miami is desperate to compete immediately.

And if the Blazers wait with Dame, the risk is age and injuries. If he sustains another injury like two seasons ago, no team is giving Portland anything for that contract.

If I’m Masai, I jump in and offer Pascal & GTJ for Herro, Lowry and all the FRPs and swaps being discussed in the Dame deal. Miami in this deal at least gets players that can help them now and in the future (a core of Butler, Pascal, Bam, and GTJ is solid). And Raps clear salary to be able to sign the next gen (Barnes, OG, Precious) while getting an upgrade on GTJ in Herro. Raps move forward with a core of Barnes, OG, Herro, Dick, Precious and Poeltl (until hopefully Koloko can fill the C role).

Thank GOD you're not Masai

Kreamy wrote:

LarSiN wrote:

JB7 wrote:

docholliday99 wrote:
I know we think Portland has little leverage but really, even though I think this whole thing was mainly mishandled by the Blazers, as a rebuilding team, the Blazers do have the luxury of waiting - Lillard isn't going anywhere unless Portland agrees. Lillard and the Heat are the ones that can't wait; at some point, the Heat will have to move on to a different player to maximize whatever time Butler has left. In the meantime, the Blazers will continue to struggle and in the process, retain their frp. Might be a good thing for the Blazers to wait and let the Miami move on; create more opportunity for the Blazers and will either have Lillard return or his list will expand.

There is huge risk for Portland in not dealing soon with Miami. The Heat could shift and trade for someone else, and the package the Heat are offering might be the best Portland sees, because Miami is desperate to compete immediately.

And if the Blazers wait with Dame, the risk is age and injuries. If he sustains another injury like two seasons ago, no team is giving Portland anything for that contract.

If I’m Masai, I jump in and offer Pascal & GTJ for Herro, Lowry and all the FRPs and swaps being discussed in the Dame deal. Miami in this deal at least gets players that can help them now and in the future (a core of Butler, Pascal, Bam, and GTJ is solid). And Raps clear salary to be able to sign the next gen (Barnes, OG, Precious) while getting an upgrade on GTJ in Herro. Raps move forward with a core of Barnes, OG, Herro, Dick, Precious and Poeltl (until hopefully Koloko can fill the C role).

Thank GOD you're not Masai

raincityraptors wrote:My theory has always been that there is an Atlanta trade that has been agreed to that will take place after Sept 16 because it involves Bogi. Otherwise all of this leaking in Toronto makes no sense whatsoever - especially from local media.

But this Herro talk has made me scratch my head because would we really want both of these guys?

If neither come to fruition, Masai better have a plan on how to make sure we don't let Pascal and OG leave for nothing.

johanliebert wrote:

WaltFrazier wrote:
On a side note this would have been good fodder for the Maxey-Fred debates

You guys spent all year cherry picking stats. He’s gone move on.

JRoy wrote:

ArthurVandelay wrote:

JRoy wrote:
Hate it for POR.

Swaps are worthless or close to it and THJr is a bad contract.

Pass.

JRoy, I remember you posting a Lillard trade with Milwaukee one time and was extremely underwhelmed at the return. Do you remember it?

Anyways, this is the concept I’ve been playing with in my head. How about this version?

Miami: Lillard and Hardaway Jr.

Toronto: Herro, Bufkin, AJ, 2024 Sacramento 1st (from Atlanta)

Dallas: Capela, Krejci

Atlanta: Siakam

Portland: Jaquez, Jovic, Lowry, McGee, Miami 2027 1st/swap 2028/2029/swap 2030, Dallas 2027, San Antonio 2025/2028 2nd (from Dallas)

That looks good from Portland view, imo. Offload salary, 2 prospects, 3 firsts, 2 swaps, 2 seconds. Only bad contract is McGee but it is a position of need for Portland in that they have Nurkic and that’s it as bigs. 2 years and $6m per isn’t too big a sacrifice.

Dallas gets off salary they don’t want and adds their starting C.

Atlanta gets their third star.

Miami gets Lillard and shooting wing.

Raptors add controllable contracts, youth, shot creation, and shooting.

Win-win-win-win-win?

TOR gets a better return in that deal that POR does.

AJ is the best piece inbound to TOR/POR.

JRoy wrote:

deeps6x wrote:Ok, this trade works after Bufkin is eligible to be traded on August 2nd.

Its a five team mess, but solves the Lillard and Siakam situations.

Toronto sends out Siakam $37.8M to Atlanta
Toronto receives Herro $27M from Miami, Bufkin $4M and AJ Griffin $3.7M from Atlanta

Atlanta sends out Patty Mills $6.8M to Miami, Bufkin $4M and AJ Griffin $3.7M to Toronto, Capela $20.6M to Dallas, Sacramento 2024 FRP to Portland
Atlanta receives Siakam $37.8M from Toronto

Dallas sends out Hardaway $17.8M to Portland, Dallas 2027 FRP to Portland
Dallas receives Capela $20.6M from Atlanta

Miami sends out Herro $27M to Toronto, Lowry $29.6M to Portland, Jovic $2.3M to Portland, Miami 2027 FRP to Portland, Miami 2029 FRP pick swap to Portland
Miami receives Lillard $45.6M from Portland, Mills $6.8M from Atlanta

Portland sends out Lillard $45.6M to Miami
Portland receives Lowry $29.6M from Miami, Jovic $2.3M from Miami, Hardaway $17.8M from Dallas, Dallas 2027 FRP from Dallas, Sacramento 2024 FRP from Atlanta, Miami 2027 FRP from Miami, Miami 2029 FRP pick swap from Miami


Toronto sends out their best player, Siakam, but gets back youth. Bonus, all deals are locked in for a few years. We suck more in 2023/2024, but have better contracts to do a proper rebuild with around Scottie. Bonus, we can probably afford OG now. Herro becomes the highest paid player on the team, at least until we re-sign OG. Herro would give us optionality with GTJ. We wouldn't need to extend him unless it was quite a team friendly deal.

Miami gets their man in Lillard. Lillard goes to his preferred destination. The cost to Miami is Herro (who they didn't even need for their playoff run last month), Jovic (2022 FRP) (or it could be Jaquez Jr, 2023 FRP - works with either player, so whomever Portland prefers), their 2027 FRP and a 2029 FRP pick swap. And of course, Lowry goes out and Mills in as salary filler to make the deal work. Mills being a good 3 pt shooter helps replace the loss of Vincent, and being a PG, takes the place of Lowry in the backup PG role.

Atlanta gets their man in Siakam. The cost is Capela - who they've been trying to move and who Dallas wants, the Sacramento 2024 FRP (worst draft ever?), their third string SF AJ Griffin (but he looks good when he gets minutes), and Kobe Bufkin who Toronto planned to draft until Dick fell to them. Then they get to make OO their starting C, which seems to have been their plan all along.

Dallas gets their man in Capela. The cost is Hardaway and a 2027 FRP. They need Capela to allow the Kyrie/Luka tandem to work. Hardaway and a pick makes sense for them. Hardaway gets fewer touches now that Kyrie is on the team, so he was becoming less necessary, and his salary is needed to make the trade work. As far as the 2027 FRP, if they don't give it up now, Luka might be gone by then. The NEED to succeed now. I thought about making it Homes and McGee instead of Hardaway, but both have a player option in 24/25 so while Dallas would rather give up the two crappier players, Portland would want the better one - even if it isn't at a position of need. But who knows, maybe I'm guessing wrong on what Portland would want. It doesn't change the deal much. Just a tweak that might happen.

Portland gets out of the massive contract they gifted Lillard. They have to eat a year of Lowry's contract. They get Hardaway on a reasonable two year deal, who they could probably flip at the trade deadline for another FRP. They get a past FRP in Jovic or Jaquez Jr., they also get two more FRPs in the Sac 24 and Dal 27 picks, and a Miami FRP swap in 2029. If they flip Hardaway for a FRP, they can basically call it a FIVE FRP for Lillard deal. Isn't that exactly what they are looking for?

It works in the https://fanspo.com/nba/trade-machine if you wait until after Bufkin/Jaquez are trade eligible.

Everyone seems to get what they want and nobody gets screwed.

Hate it for POR.

Swaps are worthless or close to it and THJr is a bad contract.

Pass.

Raptorfan2012 wrote:

ArthurVandelay wrote:Raps have been linked to Bogi before. September 16 before he can be traded. But he shoots pretty good contested…

Read on Twitter

Raptor fans in July: "Kobe Bufkin is eligible to be traded in early August - trade will probably be done then."
Raptor fans in August: "Bogi is eligible to be traded in mid September - trade will probably be done then."
Raptor fans in September: "Almost training camp, Atlanta is on the clock to put their best offer and Pascal will be traded."

Tha Cynic wrote:

Kreamy wrote:

The Raptors could have just traded less for Jordan Poole if the best they can get back for Siakam is Herro. I would personally rather keep Siakam than do that trade.

JB7 wrote:

JRoy wrote:

JB7 wrote:
There is huge risk for Portland in not dealing soon with Miami. The Heat could shift and trade for someone else, and the package the Heat are offering might be the best Portland sees, because Miami is desperate to compete immediately.

And if the Blazers wait with Dame, the risk is age and injuries. If he sustains another injury like two seasons ago, no team is giving Portland anything for that contract.

If I’m Masai, I jump in and offer Pascal & GTJ for Herro, Lowry and all the FRPs and swaps being discussed in the Dame deal. Miami in this deal at least gets players that can help them now and in the future (a core of Butler, Pascal, Bam, and GTJ is solid). And Raps clear salary to be able to sign the next gen (Barnes, OG, Precious) while getting an upgrade on GTJ in Herro. Raps move forward with a core of Barnes, OG, Herro, Dick, Precious and Poeltl (until hopefully Koloko can fill the C role).

There’s not much risk of injury if he isn’t playing.

True - but depending on how long he sits for, could impact his conditioning for the current season. If he sits until the trade deadline, will he be as effective as last season, and does he risk injury trying to catch up on his conditioning.

The man is 33. It is the reason he is pressing Portland to trade him immediately. The clock is ticking for him, and in some respects for the Blazers, because his value drops as the days pass and he gets older.