Peak Chris Paul vs Peak Steve Nash

[Hemskyfanboy83]

Nash for me.

Paul had huge individual #'s in 07/08, but it didn't translate into a great offensive team. New Orleans ranked 9th in PTS/G and 8th in FG%.

Nash led teams were pretty much a lock to finish 1st in both those categories regardless of who he was playing with (ie the year Amare missed the whole season and the Suns still killed it offensively).

[BattleTested]

Chris Paul had a top three all time point guard peak.

But Steve Nash is the all time best point guard by a healthy margin.

A tougher question would be between peak Magic and peak Paul. At least there is an argument there.

Nash is in a class by himself and is the highest impact player ever - for any position. It is a quantifiable fact. If people were capable of processing the available data they would know this.

It's fine with me that everyone parrots the popular school of thought. I've learned to control my expectations regarding people's objectivity and rationality - to maintain my peace and sanity. Even so, there are a handful of guys on this board that should realize it. Some even come close to saying it.

That's the nice thing about the truth... it's what is. And the fact that people's minds rarely correspond to it well, doesn't change it.

Just venting.

In what world is Nash better than Magic Johnson? I'm curious to see the facts for that one. And no I don't think Magic is better because he has 5 rings and Nash has none. That's one of the examples of him being better but it is not the reason.

[Regulio]

lmao at Nash being better than Magic...

[RandomKnight]

Chris Paul had a top three all time point guard peak.

But Steve Nash is the all time best point guard by a healthy margin.

A tougher question would be between peak Magic and peak Paul. At least there is an argument there.

Nash is in a class by himself and is the highest impact player ever - for any position. It is a quantifiable fact. If people were capable of processing the available data they would know this.

It's fine with me that everyone parrots the popular school of thought. I've learned to control my expectations regarding people's objectivity and rationality - to maintain my peace and sanity. Even so, there are a handful of guys on this board that should realize it. Some even come close to saying it.

That's the nice thing about the truth... it's what is. And the fact that people's minds rarely correspond to it well, doesn't change it.

Just venting.

In what world is Nash better than Magic Johnson? I'm curious to see the facts for that one. And no I don't think Magic is better because he has 5 rings and Nash has none. That's one of the examples of him being better but it is not the reason.

Interestingly enough, I do value rings very highly in both goat and impact player rating. But there are several things about Nash that simply override that shortcomming in his resume. (If you are speaking of GOAT ranking Magic blows Nash away. But that is resume driven to a large extent. But in pure, on court impact, Nash blows Magic away.)

Nash impacts team offense to a degree that Magic just doesn't compare.

There are plenty of stats in other Nash threads or on stat sights for you to look it up your self. Perhaps the most telling stat is that Nash has run more of the top twenty offenses than the next five best players combined. No one comes close. And he did it with drastically different rosters.

Magic had the luxury of perhaps the best roster ever - including Kareem. (This has a lot to do with both his box score type stats and his ring count.) He still did not consistently run as potent an offense as Nash did with scrubs. Breaking down what Nash does on the court (along with some of the quantifiable reasons he is able to do it) is just mind blowing. APM and other advanced stats are helpful to an extent as well.

I'm not going to list the stats for you. But I will say this. Nash is the most extreme outlier in terms of quantifiable impact by any athlete in the history of team sport.

And by the way, I am not some huge Nash fan. That's not my deal. I don't even have the patience or interest to sit through a whole game. Nor am I a stat geek. I do stuff like formulate fundamental theorems for fun. This is just mind candy for me.

[baseline33]

Paul easily.

Nash is one of the more overrated players in history.

+1

[G35]

Why do people think that Nash's impact on offense means his impact is greater than any other PG's impact as a whole? And Nash's impact wasn't that great on the Mavericks. What makes anyone think it would be greater outside of Phoenix? Can you quantify that, because we already have an example of him with another team in his prime and his impact......

[Alhazred]

Nash for me.

Paul had huge individual #'s in 07/08, but it didn't translate into a great offensive team. New Orleans ranked 9th in PTS/G and 8th in FG%.

Nash led teams were pretty much a lock to finish 1st in both those categories regardless of who he was playing with (ie the year Amare missed the whole season and the Suns still killed it offensively).

This.

[raptorforlife88]

Why do people think that Nash's impact on offense means his impact is greater than any other PG's impact as a whole? And Nash's impact wasn't that great on the Mavericks. What makes anyone think it would be greater outside of Phoenix? Can you quantify that, because we already have an example of him with another team in his prime and his impact......

Has this not been explained a million times over? The offense in Dallas wasn't run though Nash, and for some reason Michael Finley had the ball a lot despite being rather inefficient. If the offense was run through Nash he would have likely put up the same numbers he did in Pheonix. It's simply a matter of utilization. For example everyone knows that James Harden could put up star numbers, but with Durant and Westbrook he won't be utilized to his maximum abilities. When he's made the the first option, his impact will obviously be greater. The same thing to a slightly lesser extent happened with Joe Johnson going to Atlanta.

Also just throwing this out there, but Nash is still statistically performing like he did in his prime with his current numbers. This despite the fact that the teams pace is 20th in the league. That means Phoenix is the 10th slowest team in the league if you're not picking up on that. This is clearly not the same offense being run from six or seven years ago. So the point about Phoenix's system or whatever else is pretty much moot.

As for the question on hand, it's close but I would lean towards Paul because his season was just absurd. He was putting up a PER of 30, handling a large amount of usage ridiculously efficiently. He hasn't managed to get back to it since, but he was in other league. Nash's 06/07 season was also ridiculously efficient, but doesn't quite match up to it.

[Speedlot]

Nash much higher peak. Paul has random "god" mode. Ala the game against Miami, Playoffs against Lakers.

Overall though, other PG are just simply better constantly. Drose of last year/this year. Deron SEVERAL years.

"both" of these godly PG hasn't done anything though to see the finals.

[JustCame]

Paul easily.

Nash is one of the more overrated players in history.

+1

..apparently Nash is better than Magic now.

[Mr. Natural]

Impact stats > Traditional stats.

A player's contribution to a team cannot be truly evaluated through traditional stats. For instance, a great shooter helps space the floor opening things up for other teammates yet this is not accounted for in the boxscore. There are numerous others factors that help improve a team that is not recorded by traditional stats.

With this in mind, I voted for Nash. His impact is much greater than what is shown in the traditional stats and I prefer his peak to Paul's.

[GhostsOfGil]

Impact stats > Traditional stats.

A player's contribution to a team cannot be truly evaluated through traditional stats. For instance, a great shooter helps space the floor opening things up for other teammates yet this is not accounted for in the boxscore. There are numerous others factors that help improve a team that is not recorded by traditional stats.

With this in mind, I voted for Nash. His impact is much greater than what is shown in the traditional stats and I prefer his peak to Paul's.

I agree. Prime Nash lead a devastating and efficient offense that didnt always reflect in his personal stat line.

[Rapcity_11]

Paul easily.

Nash is one of the more overrated players in history.

+1

..apparently Nash is better than Magic now.

According to one guy...

On topic, CP3 wins the box-score comparison however both guys are known for beyond the box-score impact.

[G35]

The slow pace benefited Paul. He also likes to play at a slow pace. EVERYTHING ran through Paul that season. I highly doubt a quicker pace would have any impact on his scoring or assist numbers.

Has this not been explained a million times over? The offense in Dallas wasn't run though Nash, and for some reason Michael Finley had the ball a lot despite being rather inefficient. If the offense was run through Nash he would have likely put up the same numbers he did in Pheonix. It's simply a matter of utilization.

Now people complain about Lebron, Kobe, or Wade about dominating the ball and that's why they accumulate so many stats. When one player dominates the ball of course he is going to make a bigger impact/better stats. Duh.

The problem with Nash dominating the ball is the Suns didn't win. Make all the excuses you want but the Mavericks won with Kidd giving the ball up to Dirk to make plays. Nash dominating the ball will get you great efficiency but it doesn't guarantee you winning the game. His offense hasn't been good enough to beat other teams, especially when the IDENTITY of the Suns becomes offense oriented.

And as was said in the Oscar thread, Nash had the benefit of many, many great three point shooters. He has had more three point threats surrounding him than just about any other PG in NBA history. It's like the Suns liked accumulating three point shooters for some peculiar reason instead of getting a defensive presence....I wonder why?

[RandomKnight]

Impact stats > Traditional stats.

A player's contribution to a team cannot be truly evaluated through traditional stats. For instance, a great shooter helps space the floor opening things up for other teammates yet this is not accounted for in the boxscore. There are numerous others factors that help improve a team that is not recorded by traditional stats.

With this in mind, I voted for Nash. His impact is much greater than what is shown in the traditional stats and I prefer his peak to Paul's.

I agree. Prime Nash lead a devastating and efficient offense that didnt always reflect in his personal stat line.

These two guys get it, and are making the essence of my argument. The thing is, people just don't realize what an extreme outlier Nash is.

And in answer to the question above, his extreme impact on team offense makes his average defense (and it is average - not below) a matter of indifference in comparing him with great two way point guards like Paul.

[G35]

According to one guy...

On topic, CP3 wins the box-score comparison however both guys are known for beyond the box-score impact.

Really....Nash has some intangibles, some leadership qualities that he is identified with? I haven't seen them yet, because if you are comparing a supposed elite player vs elite player intangibles generally means winning something.....

[G35]

These two guys get it, and are making the essence of my argument. The thing is, people just don't realize what an extreme outlier Nash is.

And in answer to the question above, his extreme impact on team offense makes his average defense (and it is average - not below) a matter of indifference in comparing him with great two way point guards like Paul.

It would make his an the outlier of all time that he led such a devestating offense with a decided lacking defense and won something. As is, Nash and those Suns teams are going to be the Loyola Marymount, Denver Nuggets, Paul Westhead, Houston Oilers run n shoot, Buffalo Bills, Run TMC of their era.

Outliers.....

[Rapcity_11]

According to one guy...

On topic, CP3 wins the box-score comparison however both guys are known for beyond the box-score impact.

Really....Nash has some intangibles, some leadership qualities that he is identified with? I haven't seen them yet, because if you are comparing a supposed elite player vs elite player intangibles generally means winning something.....

Well Nash has been voted as the best leader in the NBA numerous times but that's not what I'm talking about at all. A floor general's impact goes well beyond the box-score. You've been involved in many Nash threads, this has been covered to death.

Nash has certainly won more than Paul, no?

[Rapcity_11]

Now people complain about Lebron, Kobe, or Wade about dominating the ball and that's why they accumulate so many stats. When one player dominates the ball of course he is going to make a bigger impact/better stats. Duh.

Which explains Nash's slightly worse individual production in Dallas, a concept you have repeatedly failed to grasp.

The problem with Nash dominating the ball is the Suns didn't win. Make all the excuses you want but the Mavericks won with Kidd giving the ball up to Dirk to make plays. Nash dominating the ball will get you great efficiency but it doesn't guarantee you winning the game. His offense hasn't been good enough to beat other teams, especially when the IDENTITY of the Suns becomes offense oriented.

See here you're mixing up offense with the end result on the scoreboard. The Nash-led Suns and Mavs offenses have been historically great in the PLAYOFFS. Looking at the best playoff offenses since 1980 Nash quarterbacked the top 2 and 5 of the top 20 offenses.

http://www.backpicks.com/2011/12/19/the ... ince-1980/

Did Nash ever win, obviously not. Isolating offense however, he has led all-time great offense. And what's a PG's main responsibility...?

[rrravenred]

Did Nash ever win, obviously not. Isolating offense however, he has led all-time great offense. And what's a PG's main responsibility...?

... making sure his bigs defend, block out and don't stand up from the bench when you get hip-checked....

Obviously.