2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 3)

[3toheadmelo]

We need to walk away with 3 point guards in this PG heavy draft. If 1 is starter material and 1 bench player, I'll consider this a very good draft.

To draft a front court player in 2020 is nonsensical since we have Mitch, Knox and Randle for now and 2021 is laden with talented front court players.

Repeat, we need to walk away with either of 3: LaMelo, Tyrese Haliburton, Killian Hayes, Anthony Cole, RJ Hampton, Kira Lewis Jr. Tyrese Maxey, Devin Vassell, Desmond Bane, Jahmi'us Ramsey, Leandro Bolmaro etc.



There is NO reason to draft Wiseman or any other big if our need is at the point.

This argument sounds like when I battled the whole board for us to draft Tatum over point guards like Frank and y’all thought I was crazy. We’ll see who’s right again this time. I thought y’all would’ve learned by now that we should always draft the best player available instead of drafting for needs, but I guess not.

[Richard4444]

If that was the case then Houston would be the best team in the league

The Houston problem is that their guards are so expensive (Russel, Harden and Gordon make 90M), there are no cap space left for a Big. Besides, Dantoni doesnt mind.

They don’t care for bigs that’s why they suck. Every team that has won a championship in recent history has had a very good big man. The only outlier is Golden state and that’s because they have arguably the best shooter of all time.

I think Bigs are important. But they are relatively inexpensive. Atlanta got Capela in a good contract for very little in return. Lakers are good with the cheap Mcgee and Howard. Bucks are good with the inexpensive Lopez Twins. Celtics are surprising well with Theis and Kanter. LAC have Zubac and Harrel. Raptors got the washed Gasol and Ibaka (their next contracts will be way cheaper). Memphis were surprising well with JV as their starter center.

Besides, we cant think today NBA looking at past champions. The game has changed.

[3toheadmelo]

The Houston problem is that their guards are so expensive (Russel, Harden and Gordon make 90M), there are no cap space left for a Big. Besides, Dantoni doesnt mind.

They don’t care for bigs that’s why they suck. Every team that has won a championship in recent history has had a very good big man. The only outlier is Golden state and that’s because they have arguably the best shooter of all time.

I think Bigs are important. But they are relatively inexpensive. Atlanta got Capela in a good contract for very little in return. Lakers are good with the cheap Mcgee and Howard. Bucks are good with the inexpensive Lopez Twins. Celtics are surprising well with Theis and Kanter. LAC have Zubac and Harrel. Raptors got the washed Gasol and Ibaka (their next contracts will be way cheaper). Memphis were surprising well with JV as their starter center.

Besides, we cant think today NBA looking at past champions. The game has changed.

Lakers have AD. Bucks have Giannis. Heat has Bam. Nuggets have Jokic. Memphis has JJJ along with JV. Portland with Nurkic before he got hurt. Harrell on the Clippers. Utah with Gobert. The list goes on. Great big men are still having a big impact on winning teams.

Even Marc Gasol played a big role on the championship Toronto team.

Big men are still relevant in this league. The reality is that you need both good big men and guards. Can’t have one without the other. History shows it.

[Jeff Van Gully]

It would be interesting to see what the Warriors would do at #1 or near the top. Wiseman does make sense. Or they could go in another direction...can even see them trading down.

i am highly intrigued by what they might do there. they could use wiseman.

i'm a strong believer in BPA. if they think edwards or lamelo is BPA, it shouldn't matter that they have splash brothers.

trade down could be beneficial if the bounty is high and they have someone they like.

i'd have to think if all went according to record, #1 would cost the knicks #6 and an unprotected FRP the following year. i'm good on that.

I am against giving away the 2021 FRP to trade up to get Edwards or Lamelo. Because without next year pick, we are going all in, trading Dallas e LAC picks for washed vets. Playoff will be an obligation in 2021.

i agree with all this, and will add that FRP are still valuable even to playoff teams. most years there are good players outside of the lottery.

[3toheadmelo]

Next year’s draft is incredibly weak for big men. The #1 big man, Evan Mobley doesn’t look impressive at all to me. Wiseman is a lot better. If we can’t get Wiseman then I would just roll with Mitch and hope he improves. Mobley seems pretty overrated

[robillionaire]

i am highly intrigued by what they might do there. they could use wiseman.

i'm a strong believer in BPA. if they think edwards or lamelo is BPA, it shouldn't matter that they have splash brothers.

trade down could be beneficial if the bounty is high and they have someone they like.

i'd have to think if all went according to record, #1 would cost the knicks #6 and an unprotected FRP the following year. i'm good on that.

I am against giving away the 2021 FRP to trade up to get Edwards or Lamelo. Because without next year pick, we are going all in, trading Dallas e LAC picks for washed vets. Playoff will be an obligation in 2021.

i agree with all this, and will add that FRP are still valuable even to playoff teams. most years there are good players outside of the lottery.

When Dallas traded up for Luka the pick next year was top 1-5 protected (ended up being 10th and cam reddish) that seems to be the top going rate. Yet they didn't really go all in on any washed vets either. I would definitely not send a completely unprotected FRP. But if we could send a 1-5 protected or better yet 1-10 protected, or the mavs pick, yes I would do that. I'd rather trade the mavs pick, not ours

Edit: what I'm saying is that if the pick was top 5 or 10 protected (or the mavs pick) we could still safely tank our asses off to keep it if we wanted

[WargamesX]

I am against giving away the 2021 FRP to trade up to get Edwards or Lamelo. Because without next year pick, we are going all in, trading Dallas e LAC picks for washed vets. Playoff will be an obligation in 2021.

i agree with all this, and will add that FRP are still valuable even to playoff teams. most years there are good players outside of the lottery.

When Dallas traded up for Luka the pick next year was top 1-5 protected (ended up being 10th and cam reddish) that seems to be the top going rate. Yet they didn't really go all in on any washed vets either. I would definitely not send a completely unprotected FRP. But if we could send a 1-5 protected or better yet 1-10 protected, or the mavs pick, yes I would do that. I'd rather trade the mavs pick, not ours

Edit: what I'm saying is that if the pick was top 5 or 10 protected (or the mavs pick) we could still safely tank our asses off to keep it if we wanted

In regards to trades I would say the order of importance goes from least to most

Clippers Pick
Mavs 2023 pick (top 10 protected)
Mavs 2021 pick
Future knicks pick 2021 and later
Knicks 2020 pick (unless for a swap)

Protections would be ideal. However, I could live with it if we used a combination of the clippers pick and 2023 pick to move up (or swap with the 2020 pick). They both will likely be in the mid to late 20's.

Our future picks and that Mavs 2021 pick shouldn't be touched. Next year is supposed to be a really good draft and having two picks in it should be a priority to either draft twice in it or to move up to higher prospect if needed. If gun to our head we had to send another pick, I would throw the mavs 2021 pick in with protections on it like you said.

[Zenzibar]

We need to walk away with 3 point guards in this PG heavy draft. If 1 is starter material and 1 bench player, I'll consider this a very good draft.

To draft a front court player in 2020 is nonsensical since we have Mitch, Knox and Randle for now and 2021 is laden with talented front court players.

Repeat, we need to walk away with either of 3: LaMelo, Tyrese Haliburton, Killian Hayes, Anthony Cole, RJ Hampton, Kira Lewis Jr. Tyrese Maxey, Devin Vassell, Desmond Bane, Jahmi'us Ramsey, Leandro Bolmaro etc.



There is NO reason to draft Wiseman or any other big if our need is at the point.

This argument sounds like when I battled the whole board for us to draft Tatum over point guards like Frank and y’all thought I was crazy. We’ll see who’s right again this time. I thought y’all would’ve learned by now that we should always draft the best player available instead of drafting for needs, but I guess not.

...and what makes you think Wiseman is the best player available. Most have him second tier, a few 3rd tier. If Wiseman is slow to adjust, many will say we should have drafted yada yada yada, my guess including you. Why, cause we'll still have Payton and who knows who else manning the point.

What you'e infering is that Wiseman either is an amazing power forward prospect (no-one is saying this btw) or our future center therefore trade Mitch (by far, I mean miles the better defensive player). Which is it?

[Richard4444]

Next year’s draft is incredibly weak for big men. The #1 big man, Evan Mobley doesn’t look impressive at all to me. Wiseman is a lot better. If we can’t get Wiseman then I would just roll with Mitch and hope he improves. Mobley seems pretty overrated

We dont have to draft a Big this year or next year. We have Mitch. And there are tons of bigs in 2020 Free Agency in all price ranges.

Good Vets (around 15M or even less): Baynes, Whiteside, Gasol, Ibaka, Favors, Milsap, Tristan, Harrel. I excluded Drummond because he is not worth for the Max or near Max.

Serviceable Vets (less than 10): Howard, Mason Plumlee, James Johnson, Ollynik, Mahimi, Henson, Meyers Leonard, Taj, Rob Lopez,

Younger Bigs 27 or less (around 10M): Wood (maybe 15M), Giles, Noel, Byombo, Len, Bobby, Kanter, WCS, Vonleh, Okafor, Willy.

But we need a sharpshooter wing or PG. And the options are thin. We may have to pay around 20M to sign a wing/PG like Fred, Bertans, Grant or Morris. Trading for Rozier or Schroeder will cost us 16-20 of cap space and more assets in a trade. Bogdan or Malik will cost us 20M (more assets in a sign and trade).

The FA market for Bigs is far better than the market for wings and PGs. We need to aim a PG/wing in the draft.

[robillionaire]

i agree with all this, and will add that FRP are still valuable even to playoff teams. most years there are good players outside of the lottery.

When Dallas traded up for Luka the pick next year was top 1-5 protected (ended up being 10th and cam reddish) that seems to be the top going rate. Yet they didn't really go all in on any washed vets either. I would definitely not send a completely unprotected FRP. But if we could send a 1-5 protected or better yet 1-10 protected, or the mavs pick, yes I would do that. I'd rather trade the mavs pick, not ours

Edit: what I'm saying is that if the pick was top 5 or 10 protected (or the mavs pick) we could still safely tank our asses off to keep it if we wanted

In regards to trades I would say the order of importance goes from least to most

Clippers Pick
Mavs 2023 pick (top 10 protected)
Mavs 2021 pick
Future knicks pick 2021 and later
Knicks 2020 pick (unless for a swap)

Protections would be ideal. However, I could live with it if we used a combination of the clippers pick and 2023 pick to move up (or swap with the 2020 pick). They both will likely be in the mid to late 20's.

Our future picks and that Mavs 2021 pick shouldn't be touched. Next year is supposed to be a really good draft and having two picks in it should be a priority to either draft twice in it or to move up to higher prospect if needed. If gun to our head we had to send another pick, I would throw the mavs 2021 pick in with protections on it like you said.

I don’t think you can add protections to that mavs pick since it’s not our pick to begin with, right?

We have upcoming hornets and pistons 2nd rounders that might be nearly as valuable as the mavs 1sts, seeing as how most expect the mavs pick in the late 1st and those picks early 2nd.

if a team would accept, I would rather trade our Other picks in this draft to move up. But that may not be enough. 2021 is supposed to be the better draft anyway and who knows the future, maybe Luka gets hurt and we regret trading that unprotected mavs pick.

we also have the ability to pick swap with the clippers next year although the odds of that coming into play are less than zero

Let’s just win the lottery

[Zenzibar]

Next year’s draft is incredibly weak for big men. The #1 big man, Evan Mobley doesn’t look impressive at all to me. Wiseman is a lot better. If we can’t get Wiseman then I would just roll with Mitch and hope he improves. Mobley seems pretty overrated

Not true. Outside of Cade Cunningham, the 2021 draft is loaded with bigs. In this draft is where we should address our 3 and 4, not now with your pick Wiseman.

[WargamesX]

When Dallas traded up for Luka the pick next year was top 1-5 protected (ended up being 10th and cam reddish) that seems to be the top going rate. Yet they didn't really go all in on any washed vets either. I would definitely not send a completely unprotected FRP. But if we could send a 1-5 protected or better yet 1-10 protected, or the mavs pick, yes I would do that. I'd rather trade the mavs pick, not ours

Edit: what I'm saying is that if the pick was top 5 or 10 protected (or the mavs pick) we could still safely tank our asses off to keep it if we wanted

In regards to trades I would say the order of importance goes from least to most

Clippers Pick
Mavs 2023 pick (top 10 protected)
Mavs 2021 pick
Future knicks pick 2021 and later
Knicks 2020 pick (unless for a swap)

Protections would be ideal. However, I could live with it if we used a combination of the clippers pick and 2023 pick to move up (or swap with the 2020 pick). They both will likely be in the mid to late 20's.

Our future picks and that Mavs 2021 pick shouldn't be touched. Next year is supposed to be a really good draft and having two picks in it should be a priority to either draft twice in it or to move up to higher prospect if needed. If gun to our head we had to send another pick, I would throw the mavs 2021 pick in with protections on it like you said.

I don’t think you can add protections to that mavs pick since it’s not our pick to begin with, right?

We have upcoming hornets and pistons 2nd rounders that might be nearly as valuable as the mavs 1sts, seeing as how most expect the mavs pick in the late 1st and those picks early 2nd.

if a team would accept, I would rather trade our Other picks in this draft to move up. But that may not be enough. 2021 is supposed to be the better draft anyway and who knows the future, maybe Luka gets hurt and we regret trading that unprotected mavs pick.

we also have the ability to pick swap with the clippers next year although the odds of that coming into play are less than zero

Let’s just win the lottery

That’s why I hold the 2021 Mavs pick to a higher standard. It could turn out good. The protections on 2023 means even if they are a late lottery team they could move into the top 10 via the lottery and keep their pick.

[Zenzibar]

I am against giving away the 2021 FRP to trade up to get Edwards or Lamelo. Because without next year pick, we are going all in, trading Dallas e LAC picks for washed vets. Playoff will be an obligation in 2021.

i agree with all this, and will add that FRP are still valuable even to playoff teams. most years there are good players outside of the lottery.

When Dallas traded up for Luka the pick next year was top 1-5 protected (ended up being 10th and cam reddish) that seems to be the top going rate. Yet they didn't really go all in on any washed vets either. I would definitely not send a completely unprotected FRP. But if we could send a 1-5 protected or better yet 1-10 protected, or the mavs pick, yes I would do that. I'd rather trade the mavs pick, not ours

Edit: what I'm saying is that if the pick was top 5 or 10 protected (or the mavs pick) we could still safely tank our asses off to keep it if we wanted

Why? This years draft has at least 4-5 guards that we can use and will be available pass the 6th pick. You guys are too desperate.

[3toheadmelo]

We need to walk away with 3 point guards in this PG heavy draft. If 1 is starter material and 1 bench player, I'll consider this a very good draft.

To draft a front court player in 2020 is nonsensical since we have Mitch, Knox and Randle for now and 2021 is laden with talented front court players.

Repeat, we need to walk away with either of 3: LaMelo, Tyrese Haliburton, Killian Hayes, Anthony Cole, RJ Hampton, Kira Lewis Jr. Tyrese Maxey, Devin Vassell, Desmond Bane, Jahmi'us Ramsey, Leandro Bolmaro etc.



There is NO reason to draft Wiseman or any other big if our need is at the point.

This argument sounds like when I battled the whole board for us to draft Tatum over point guards like Frank and y’all thought I was crazy. We’ll see who’s right again this time. I thought y’all would’ve learned by now that we should always draft the best player available instead of drafting for needs, but I guess not.

...and what makes you think Wiseman is the best player available. Most have him second tier, a few 3rd tier. If Wiseman is slow to adjust, many will say we should have drafted yada yada yada, my guess including you. Why, cause we'll still have Payton and who knows who else manning the point.

What you'e infering is that Wiseman either is an amazing power forward prospect (no-one is saying this btw) or our future center therefore trade Mitch (by far, I mean miles the better defensive player). Which is it?

Same argument just a different day. "Tatum is not some amazing small forward". "Knicks need a point guard, would rather have Frank".

And DX has Wiseman going #2 btw. The most knowledable draft experts out there have him as the 2nd best player in the whole draft.

No one is saying the Knicks don't need a guard. Just get one in next year's draft or get one with our later picks in this draft or trade/sign for one in free agency. It's not that complicated. But people like you want to reach for inferior talent to draft for needs which is a horrible mindset.

[3toheadmelo]

Next year’s draft is incredibly weak for big men. The #1 big man, Evan Mobley doesn’t look impressive at all to me. Wiseman is a lot better. If we can’t get Wiseman then I would just roll with Mitch and hope he improves. Mobley seems pretty overrated

We dont have to draft a Big this year or next year. We have Mitch. And there are tons of bigs in 2020 Free Agency in all price ranges.

Good Vets (around 15M or even less): Baynes, Whiteside, Gasol, Ibaka, Favors, Milsap, Tristan, Harrel. I excluded Drummond because he is not worth for the Max or near Max.

Serviceable Vets (less than 10): Howard, Mason Plumlee, James Johnson, Ollynik, Mahimi, Henson, Meyers Leonard, Taj, Rob Lopez,

Younger Bigs 27 or less (around 10M): Wood (maybe 15M), Giles, Noel, Byombo, Len, Bobby, Kanter, WCS, Vonleh, Okafor, Willy.

But we need a sharpshooter wing or PG. And the options are thin. We may have to pay around 20M to sign a wing/PG like Fred, Bertans, Grant or Morris. Trading for Rozier or Schroeder will cost us 16-20 of cap space and more assets in a trade. Bogdan or Malik will cost us 20M (more assets in a sign and trade).

The FA market for Bigs is far better than the market for wings and PGs. We need to aim a PG/wing in the draft.

No thanks on all of those big men you just named. Willy? Portis? Whiteside? Vonleh? Wtf No winning team has players like that as a starting big.

Wiseman is better than all of those guys and a way higher ceiling than guys like Nerlens Noel, Alex Len. So yeah. No thanks

[3toheadmelo]

Next year’s draft is incredibly weak for big men. The #1 big man, Evan Mobley doesn’t look impressive at all to me. Wiseman is a lot better. If we can’t get Wiseman then I would just roll with Mitch and hope he improves. Mobley seems pretty overrated

Not true. Outside of Cade Cunningham, the 2021 draft is loaded with bigs. In this draft is where we should address our 3 and 4, not now with your pick Wiseman.

You have no clue about next year's draft don't you? Next year's draft is loaded with wings.
DX released a mock 4 days ago. Literally only one C in the top 12. And that one C looks overrated.

PICK TEAM HT POS AGE
1. Cade Cunningham Oklahoma State 6-7 PG 18.5
2. Jalen Green G League Select 6-5 SG 18.2
3. Evan Mobley USC 7-0 PF/C 18.8
4. Jonathan Kuminga 6-7 SF 17.5
5. Ziaire Williams Stanford 6-8 SG/SF 18.6
6. Jalen Johnson Duke 6-8 PF 18.3
7. Usman Garuba Real Madrid 6-8 PF 18.1
8. B.J. Boston Kentucky 6-7 SG/SF 18.4
9. Greg Brown Texas 6-8 PF 18.6
10. Terrence Clarke Kentucky 6-6 SG/SF 18.6
11. Caleb Love North Carolina 6-3 PG 18.5
12. Daishen Nix UCLA 6-4 PG 18.2

[robillionaire]

i agree with all this, and will add that FRP are still valuable even to playoff teams. most years there are good players outside of the lottery.

When Dallas traded up for Luka the pick next year was top 1-5 protected (ended up being 10th and cam reddish) that seems to be the top going rate. Yet they didn't really go all in on any washed vets either. I would definitely not send a completely unprotected FRP. But if we could send a 1-5 protected or better yet 1-10 protected, or the mavs pick, yes I would do that. I'd rather trade the mavs pick, not ours

Edit: what I'm saying is that if the pick was top 5 or 10 protected (or the mavs pick) we could still safely tank our asses off to keep it if we wanted

Why? This years draft has at least 4-5 guards that we can use and will be available pass the 6th pick. You guys are too desperate.

i want one with star potential though not just one who can be used

[robillionaire]

Next year’s draft is incredibly weak for big men. The #1 big man, Evan Mobley doesn’t look impressive at all to me. Wiseman is a lot better. If we can’t get Wiseman then I would just roll with Mitch and hope he improves. Mobley seems pretty overrated

Not true. Outside of Cade Cunningham, the 2021 draft is loaded with bigs. In this draft is where we should address our 3 and 4, not now with your pick Wiseman.

DX released a mock 4 days ago. Literally only one C in the top 12. And that one C looks overrated.

C aren't in the top 12 for the same reason kickers aren't top 12 in the nfl draft

[Zenzibar]

This argument sounds like when I battled the whole board for us to draft Tatum over point guards like Frank and y’all thought I was crazy. We’ll see who’s right again this time. I thought y’all would’ve learned by now that we should always draft the best player available instead of drafting for needs, but I guess not.

...and what makes you think Wiseman is the best player available. Most have him second tier, a few 3rd tier. If Wiseman is slow to adjust, many will say we should have drafted yada yada yada, my guess including you. Why, cause we'll still have Payton and who knows who else manning the point.

What you'e infering is that Wiseman either is an amazing power forward prospect (no-one is saying this btw) or our future center therefore trade Mitch (by far, I mean miles the better defensive player). Which is it?

Same argument just a different day. "Tatum is not some amazing small forward". "Knicks need a point guard, would rather have Frank".

And DX has Wiseman going #2 btw. The most knowledable draft experts out there have him as the 2nd best player in the whole draft.

No one is saying the Knicks don't need a guard. Just get one in next year's draft or get one with our later picks in this draft or trade/sign for one in free agency. It's not that complicated. But people like you want to reach for inferior talent to draft for needs which is a horrible mindset.

Give us more draft experts picking Wiseman 1 or 2, as the Ringer has Wiseman at 7, so what it means?

Additionally, have to confess that I'm a little lost. How does Tatum going to Boston in 2017 have anything at all to do with Wiseman? He's not as highly touted.

We have a guard heavy draft, a serious position of need and you're bugling a case for a position the Knicks are solid in.

Look Wiseman is a very good prospect but we have a nice player who is incorporating a jump shoot away from being a top 4 eastern conference center. Mitch is a uber talented PnR player, his 1 on 1 defense is elite and his giddy-up around the rim are highlights.

Dude honestly? If we are in a position to trade out of his pick, I would parley that into 2 lottery picks, 1 this year and another in 2021. Do what OKC and Sam Presti would do.

[3toheadmelo]

Not true. Outside of Cade Cunningham, the 2021 draft is loaded with bigs. In this draft is where we should address our 3 and 4, not now with your pick Wiseman.

DX released a mock 4 days ago. Literally only one C in the top 12. And that one C looks overrated.

C aren't in the top 12 for the same reason kickers aren't top 12 in the nfl draft

Explain that in basketball terms. Idk much about football

2018 had a lot of centers in the top 10 (Ayton, JJJ, Bagley, WCS, Bamba). Ayton and JJJ look like future stars while the rest of them seem like solid starters. Next year's draft looks weak af for centers. Mobley doesnt look much better than Mitch to me but Wiseman is way better than them both imo. So if we miss out on Wiseman I would stick with Mitch over someone like Mobley.