2016 Draft Thread Part 3 - Poll Update

[8on]

the idea that this guy will be good at anything in the league is a nice fantasy, but there's no proof of it.

You could say that about any prospect.

actually, i couldn't. Henry Ellenson is already a very good shooter. Bender is not. Ellenson is a pretty good rebounder in this league; Bender is not. Ellenson has a variety of moves within 10 ft; Bender does not. Bender is worse in every way, i think.

[8on]

i imagine i don't accomplish anything by saying that.

look, my fear is that Bender is half-good at a lot of things, but seemingly still "improving" at all of them.

does anyone else see that? he seems to miss a lot of opportunities to score, rebound or defend. it worries me! why doesn't it worry anyone else?

[Damkac]

.288 3pt % is very good shooting?

[bwgood77]

the idea that this guy will be good at anything in the league is a nice fantasy, but there's no proof of it.

You could say that about any prospect.

actually, i couldn't. Henry Ellenson is already a very good shooter. Bender is not. Ellenson is a pretty good rebounder in this league; Bender is not. Ellenson has a variety of moves within 10 ft; Bender does not. Bender is worse in every way, i think.

I'm high on Ellenson too. And you are wrong about Ellenson shooting. He theoretically can become a good shooter because he looks good in an empty gym and is comfortable on the perimeter and too quite a few 3 pt shots, but only hit 28% of them.

Bender shot 35%+ in a much tougher league. Ellenson is a much better rebounder though.

Bender's also a better defender and fast defending guys on perimeter and a better passer. You probably need to watch some of the better videos demonstrating some of his other abilities. His passing and perimeter defense as me intrigued. The fact that he can hit 3s and block shots and has that length is all a big plus.

[carey]

[
actually, i couldn't. Henry Ellenson is already a very good shooter. Bender is not. Ellenson is a pretty good rebounder in this league; Bender is not. Ellenson has a variety of moves within 10 ft; Bender does not. Bender is worse in every way, i think.

You don't know any of that because there's barely any footage of him available. No one but scouts that have seen him play and work out knows anything about this kid. It's clear you don't want him and that's totally fine, but stating this stuff as fact is kind of weird when we don't know one way or the other.

[8on]

You could say that about any prospect.

actually, i couldn't. Henry Ellenson is already a very good shooter. Bender is not. Ellenson is a pretty good rebounder in this league; Bender is not. Ellenson has a variety of moves within 10 ft; Bender does not. Bender is worse in every way, i think.

I'm high on Ellenson too. And you are wrong about Ellenson shooting. He theoretically can become a good shooter because he looks good in an empty gym and is comfortable on the perimeter and too quite a few 3 pt shots, but only hit 28% of them.

Bender shot 35%+ in a much tougher league. Ellenson is a much better rebounder though.

where did Bender shoot 35%? i can't find that.

[rsavaj]

i imagine i don't accomplish anything by saying that.

look, my fear is that Bender is half-good at a lot of things, but seemingly still "improving" at all of them.

does anyone else see that? he seems to miss a lot of opportunities to score, rebound or defend. it worries me! why doesn't it worry anyone else?

because he's 18

[8on]

[
actually, i couldn't. Henry Ellenson is already a very good shooter. Bender is not. Ellenson is a pretty good rebounder in this league; Bender is not. Ellenson has a variety of moves within 10 ft; Bender does not. Bender is worse in every way, i think.

You don't know any of that because there's barely any footage of him available. No one but scouts that have seen him play and work out knows anything about this kid. It's clear you don't want him and that's totally fine, but stating this stuff as fact is kind of weird when we don't know one way or the other.

fine, i'm no real scout. i'm going off of the limited amount of film that i've seen.

as it happens, he hasn't played that many games yet. this only makes him more of a risk.

i'm trying to figure out why more people don't think he's as much of a risk as i do!

[8on]

i imagine i don't accomplish anything by saying that.

look, my fear is that Bender is half-good at a lot of things, but seemingly still "improving" at all of them.

does anyone else see that? he seems to miss a lot of opportunities to score, rebound or defend. it worries me! why doesn't it worry anyone else?

because he's 18

well.....so are Chriss and Ellenson, and i could make the argument that both have shown more than him.

at least Porzingis could score on account of his height. that much is evident from his pre-draft clips. people were hating on him, but i was high on him because he could put the ball in the basket. not so easy to defend a guy who's legitimately 7'2"

[bwgood77]

actually, i couldn't. Henry Ellenson is already a very good shooter. Bender is not. Ellenson is a pretty good rebounder in this league; Bender is not. Ellenson has a variety of moves within 10 ft; Bender does not. Bender is worse in every way, i think.

I'm high on Ellenson too. And you are wrong about Ellenson shooting. He theoretically can become a good shooter because he looks good in an empty gym and is comfortable on the perimeter and too quite a few 3 pt shots, but only hit 28% of them.

Bender shot 35%+ in a much tougher league. Ellenson is a much better rebounder though.

where did Bender shoot 35%? i can't find that.

Well I found that on a euroleague site when trying to find his league stats, but in different things I've read throughout the season Ford said once he was shooting 48% and in this Vertical article, Jonathan Givony said he was shooting 43% from 3

Bender has tremendous size, measuring 7-foot-1 last summer with a standing reach of 9-foot-3. His frame is still very thin and he has a long way to go, but he seems to be continuously filling out. He is a small forward/power forward right now, but with the direction the NBA is headed, it might not be a stretch to see him eventually developing into a modern-day center. While not a great jumper, Bender is extremely fluid, nimble and light on his feet for a player of his size. He’s regularly tasked with staying in front of significantly shorter small forwards on the perimeter and does not look bad doing so.

Bender’s perimeter shooting has improved dramatically since he arrived in Tel Aviv. He used to shoot the ball with ugly mechanics, but he’s raised his release point and is now shooting cleanly and fluidly. He’s seeing results this season, shooting 21 of 48 (43.8 percent) from beyond the arc. It’s a small sample size, but the way he shoots in practice and with the touch he displays, his jump shot is easy to project as being a significant weapon in the future.

Versatility has always been the key to Bender’s game. He was considered a non-shooter early in his career, yet continuously found ways to be productive with his passing, ball-handling and high basketball IQ. He plays with great confidence and does not hesitate to assert himself in games. Even when most young players would be comfortable parking in the corner and staying out of older teammates’ lanes, Bender comes into Euroleague games looking to make his presence felt.

Bender’s most underrated quality is his toughness. Some may look at his lanky frame and assume he’s just another soft European 7-footer who only wants to hide on the perimeter and jack up 3-pointers, but in reality that couldn’t be further from the truth.

Bender is a competitor who has a relentless motor. He was forced to sit out the initial part of a recent practice we attended to continue to rehab his foot injury (causing most of the dozen NBA scouts in attendance to leave), but begged his way back onto the floor. He proceeded to throw his body around with reckless abandon in five-on-five action. Maccabi’s staff urged him to take it easy, but Bender simply doesn’t know how to do that at this point in his career. He ended up tweaking his ankle after pursuing a rebound, which finally put him back on the sidelines.

“The kid is simply special,” a member of Maccabi’s coaching told The Vertical. “I’ve never been around someone that age with that kind of character. He’s not afraid of anything or anyone.”

In his own words
“When you step onto the court, its either 100 percent or it’s zero. … I did put a lot of work in the weight room, but I tried not to lose agility. It’s important for me not to lose all those things, to keep my quickness and speed. I am definitely not in a rush with the physical part. I am in a rush with all these fundamental things. I know that this physical part will come with the years and the extra work, with food supplements and food programs. Those things are going to come, I am focused on these little things, these little details in my game.”

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/european-dispatch--getting-to-know-dragan-bender-195451386.html

I had also added this to the post you quoted in an edit, when comparing him to Ellenson but you quoted it and responded before my edit went through:

Bender's also a better defender and fast defending guys on perimeter and a better passer. You probably need to watch some of the better videos demonstrating some of his other abilities. His passing and perimeter defense as me intrigued. The fact that he can hit 3s and block shots and has that length is all a big plus.

This site shows his 3pt % for the entire season to be 40%, so I guess it's higher than I thought. http://basket.co.il/PlayerPage.asp?PlayerNumber=03&TeamId=950&cYear=2016&cView=2&lang=en

[8on]

......his moves to the basket doesn't seem strong. he doesn't have the girth to be able to defend stronger power forwards. his shot form seems awkward and cumbersome. these defenders don't seem to have a clue.

i just don't see it. i've watched probably 15 to 20 minutes worth of unique footage of this guy, and i still worry. i guess i'm not going to be able to see it.......sorry.

[Mustinjo]

so it looks like most people here want Bender.

uhhh.....why? can somebody tell me what they like about him?

#hield #ellenson #maybechriss #notbender

I'll bite. Bender is:

7'1"
Very fast and quick for his size
Great passer (outlet, post, and wing)
Great motor
His shot is developing nicely
Quick hands
Gives 100% on D
Can take people off the dribble and slash!

After watching all his available tape, he looks like he could play 4-5 at the NBA level and maybe even develop into a HUGE 3 ala KD. Guys with that combination of speed, size, vision, coordination, and raw effort just don't come along every day. If the Celtics pass on him at #3, they will regret it. Someone posted this earlier and it sums him up pretty well IMO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0Epg_sBZq4

so he can pass.

he seems to hoist up his outside shot. there's very little arc or fluidity, and i sort of doubt he could make 3's consistently.

he seems just strong enough to contend with Israeli defenders. what about Joakim Noah? i don't think he'll be a good rebounder. DeMarcus Cousins could run him over. with 1.5 dribbles....

in the "Isolation D" segment, he doesn't stay in front of ANYONE. quicker guys in the NBA would blow right by him.


what's the bottom line? he's a work in progress......with EVERY skill.

the idea that this guy will be good at anything in the league is a nice fantasy, but there's no proof of it. that video, which i've already seen, just makes me more fearful at the thought of drafting this kid.

Here you go.

https://capstrategist.com/draft/draft-prospect-analysis-by-position/dragan-bender/

https://capstrategist.com/2016/06/06/2016-nba-draft-big-board-part-1-tiers-1-and-2/

[bwgood77]

[
actually, i couldn't. Henry Ellenson is already a very good shooter. Bender is not. Ellenson is a pretty good rebounder in this league; Bender is not. Ellenson has a variety of moves within 10 ft; Bender does not. Bender is worse in every way, i think.

You don't know any of that because there's barely any footage of him available. No one but scouts that have seen him play and work out knows anything about this kid. It's clear you don't want him and that's totally fine, but stating this stuff as fact is kind of weird when we don't know one way or the other.

fine, i'm no real scout. i'm going off of the limited amount of film that i've seen.

as it happens, he hasn't played that many games yet. this only makes him more of a risk.

i'm trying to figure out why more people don't think he's as much of a risk as i do!

He's certainly a risk. I don't know if he's riskier than Chriss or Skal. Skal barely played and Chriss has a very hard time rebounding and fouling.

There are weaknesses with all the prospects.

Some others adamantly don't want to draft him, like Cactus Jack and Mr Miyagi. But not sure if Cactus Jack has our best interest at heart. He could be still upset about us knocking the Sonics out in 7 in 93 in the WCF.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Basically I can see Murrays' ceiling as a cross between/ brandon roy and deron williams.

And skal has a ceiling of a cross between theo ratliff defensively, and offensively....chris bosch and pau gasols lovechild.

That would still be an amazing infusion of athletic talent and skill.

Finally, You have to consider Thon maker at #28. How could anyone pass on a 7'1 very mobile skilled, aggressive big man with a non stop high motor.

Any thoughts on their comparisons ?

I think you are comparing those two guys to perennial All-Stars so we might need to slow it down a bit. I have trumpeted Skal for quite some time, but I am pretty sure his stock has risen to the 8-10 range.

Re: Thon though, skilled is not a word I would use to describe him just yet. Long, mobile, and aggressive? Probably. But if we are saying Bender is 2 years away I don't know how far away that suggests Thon is.

Carey, I hear you on the fact that they are far removed from that prestigious company currently. And I know it is equally important to temper expectations.

But I for my part can see them reaching that level ...IF....they fall into the right situations. To some degree, All rookies are projects to be hopefully developed into a highly productive talent to their respective teams.

I do strongly believe that each player of the three has that "it" factor to become great.

For instance, In regards to murray, It is his confidence, and poise that will set him apart from his peers.

For Skal, It is his immense skill and fluidity for a 7 footer, along with with his very adept defensive prowess. That is a rare combination for a big man to have the total package on both ends. His only knock was whether or not he would be deemed a soft player. But upon review, He seems completely assertive and aggressive in the post.

Now I think that he AND bender are quite similiar in most ways, But I just see Skal as a more polished player in the post/ as well as defensively.

And finally... For Maker..... I See his versatility, fluidity, mobility, and non stop motor makes him very intriguing prospect, rim runner and defensive presence.


He can run the court, shoot, play defense , play above the rim, and is tenacious. all the factors that contribute to a high level starter .....Or perhaps even more(Given the right situation) and playing time.

A real steal at #28. And don't get me wrong....I love me some bender, Heck, I am even intrigued by ellensons skill and size.


But IF.... We miss out on Skal by #13 , I would totally choose Maker or even Ellenson. Just to make sure we get that high level talented Big man prospect.

Remember guys... Both Skal and Maker were listed as possible #1 prospects based on their skill, size, and versatility.

[darealjuice]

Dragan Bender vs Eric Jacobsen working out in Phoenix this Saturday

[Ghost of Kleine]

Hey guys, I wonder....Has there ever been any direct or indirect correlation to draw from in wich a team chooses(drafts)the last player or close to last player it happens to work out right before the draft???

Could they sometimes be tipping their hand at wich player they like best? Kind of saving the best for last.

[SkinnyOMiller]

I'm really a big fan of Demetrius Jackson. I'd love to see then Suns get him in this draft. I think he's a pretty complete player, the only real knock on him is his height but beyond that he's a very high IQ basketball player with great court awareness, definitely a "pass-first" PG but also a guy who plays hard on defense, is kind of a pest and comes with some decent shooting ability and some outstanding athleticism. It'd be great to see him develop behind Bledsoe and maybe eventually taking over the starting job someday alongside Booker.


He's pretty much everything you want in a PG minus a few inches of height, good handles, can fly up and down the court, can hit the open shot, sees the floor well, a strong leader, good character guy, mature, I think he'd fit in real well with the personnel this team has as well as Earl Watson as HC.

[rsavaj]

Basically I can see Murrays' ceiling as a cross between/ brandon roy and deron williams.

And skal has a ceiling of a cross between theo ratliff defensively, and offensively....chris bosch and pau gasols lovechild.

That would still be an amazing infusion of athletic talent and skill.

Finally, You have to consider Thon maker at #28. How could anyone pass on a 7'1 very mobile skilled, aggressive big man with a non stop high motor.

Any thoughts on their comparisons ?

I think you are comparing those two guys to perennial All-Stars so we might need to slow it down a bit. I have trumpeted Skal for quite some time, but I am pretty sure his stock has risen to the 8-10 range.

Re: Thon though, skilled is not a word I would use to describe him just yet. Long, mobile, and aggressive? Probably. But if we are saying Bender is 2 years away I don't know how far away that suggests Thon is.

Carey, I hear you on the fact that they are far removed from that prestigious company currently. And I know it is equally important to temper expectations.

But I for my part can see them reaching that level ...IF....they fall into the right situations. To some degree, All rookies are projects to be hopefully developed into a highly productive talent to their respective teams.

I do strongly believe that each player of the three has that "it" factor to become great.

For instance, In regards to murray, It is his confidence, and poise that will set him apart from his peers.

For Skal, It is his immense skill and fluidity for a 7 footer, along with with his very adept defensive prowess. That is a rare combination for a big man to have the total package on both ends. His only knock was whether or not he would be deemed a soft player. But upon review, He seems completely assertive and aggressive in the post.

Now I think that he AND bender are quite similiar in most ways, But I just see Skal as a more polished player in the post/ as well as defensively.

And finally... For Maker..... I See his versatility, fluidity, mobility, and non stop motor makes him very intriguing prospect, rim runner and defensive presence.


He can run the court, shoot, play defense , play above the rim, and is tenacious. all the factors that contribute to a high level starter .....Or perhaps even more(Given the right situation) and playing time.

A real steal at #28. And don't get me wrong....I love me some bender, Heck, I am even intrigued by ellensons skill and size.


But IF.... We miss out on Skal by #13 , I would totally choose Maker or even Ellenson. Just to make sure we get that high level talented Big man prospect.

Remember guys... Both Skal and Maker were listed as possible #1 prospects based on their skill, size, and versatility.

When was Maker ever listed as a possible number one pick

[thamadkant]

According to Jon Rothstein of CBS Sports, the Sixers "absolutely love" Providence point guard Kris Dunn, who stands 6-foot-4, 220 pounds and is expected to be a top-10 pick.

The obvious trade chip is power forward Jahlil Okafor, who has been rumored to be very available this offseason, and is viewed as the player most likely to be traded during the draft should the Sixers make a move for a second top-10 pick. Q

http://www.nj.com/sixers/index.ssf/2016/06/nba_draft_rumors_sixers_to_trade_jahlil_okafor_for.html

I would love to see Jah end up in NO with Davis. That's a nasty front court.

I rather Suns get one of them and have a nasty front court...

[Waylay13]

Ellenson is better at everything in which Bender claims to be "improving."

Except shooting 3s, moving, running the floor and blocking shots. There are a lot of players in this draft that I dont like on the Suns (Hield and Murray), there are players that I think are about an nonathletic as they come (Valentine) but I would be hard press to take Ellenson with 28th pick because he is unathletic and stated to be good a good outside shooter while shooting 28% from 3. I would rather take Diallo over him any day.