Season Speculation, Trade Ideas & Discussion Pt. 3

[RaisingArizona]

Then Ulis and James have to be worse than K Marshall was.

[NTB]

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[Mulhollanddrive]

Buy low on Nerlens Noel what would he get in FA?

[bwgood77]

Buy low on Nerlens Noel what would he get in FA?

Zero chance McD touches anyone affiliated with Rich Paul.

[Frank Lee]

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A hidden stat surfaces that sums up our struggles.

Comes a time when you just might justify firing McD for ever bringing Watson into this mix. Like it or not, McDidntplaythegame's coaching roller coaster has set this team back ... back far enough he has been able to get away with resetting his cure all timeline clock once again. Sorry boys... I am souring on the ineffective antics this GM has put forth. Its clear, especially after he inks up James, he will have little to no intention of winning/competing for yet another season. McD has painted himself in a corner, banking on the likes of Chris, Len, Bender, Jackson, Book, and Warren. He has a couple winners in that mix... but odds say thats all he'll get. Lets quit pretending he is some draft guru just because its the only reasonably successful thing he has done. Sad thing is, the draft may be his only way out and up.

Furthermore, I think Sarver's challenge to be a .500 ball club may extend all the way up to the front office. A nice subtle pie in the sky comment. I would not be surprised if a combo Coach/GM offer is made to kill two lame ducks with one stone if things go real South. I think Sir Robert has to be tiring of the high pick reward system his GM has been practicing. I sure am.

[bwgood77]

I don't want Rubio long term, and him not being able to shoot would not be good, but given where our point guards are now, and the fact that Rubio expires ni 2019, which is our target time to have cap space, I'd probably trade Monroe and a couple of seconds for him if they just want to dump him. Maybe with Gobert out they might go for it.

Again, long term is lack of shooting hurts but things can get any worse this year and our young guys need to develop and get more open shots. He might help there and provide some legit defense on opposing point guards. Of course his defender could also leave to double Booker so they'd have to play opposite ends of court.

Rubio's shooting is very strange. He shoots 93% from the line but 38% from the field.

[WeekapaugGroove]

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A hidden stat surfaces that sums up our struggles.

Comes a time when you just might justify firing McD for ever bringing Watson into this mix. Like it or not, McDidntplaythegame's coaching roller coaster has set this team back ... back far enough he has been able to get away with resetting his cure all timeline clock once again. Sorry boys... I am souring on the ineffective antics this GM has put forth. Its clear, especially after he inks up James, he will have little to no intention of winning/competing for yet another season. McD has painted himself in a corner, banking on the likes of Chris, Len, Bender, Jackson, Book, and Warren. He has a couple winners in that mix... but odds say thats all he'll get. Lets quit pretending he is some draft guru just because its the only reasonably successful thing he has done. Sad thing is, the draft may be his only way out and up.

Furthermore, I think Sarver's challenge to be a .500 ball club may extend all the way up to the front office. A nice subtle pie in the sky comment. I would not be surprised if a combo Coach/GM offer is made to kill two lame ducks with one stone if things go real South. I think Sir Robert has to be tiring of the high pick reward system his GM has been practicing. I sure am.

Other than that recent extension this summer would be the right time to make a full regime change if thats the direction they choose to go. Its my opinion a new GM should always choose their coach so if they don't make the move this summer it gets trickier to do it in the summer of 19.

I think this would be a somewhat appealing GM job. That guy would inherit a young roster, cap flexibility, and a good stock pile of picks. Plus with the state of the team that person would be coming into some low expectations. They could also scapegoat McD as the reason for the chemistry issues and turn their image around with the right hire.

Sam hinke would be an intersting target. Or maybe nash as long as he could assemble a good staff. I actaully like him better as more the president of basketball ops role more than GM. Kind of like what magic is in LA.

Another outside aspect to all this is the arena issue. Sarver needs both a better product on the floor and a better PR aspect off the floor. So hiring someone to get both these things right is so import. If sarver is smart he would realize his image locally is not great so it would be best for him to pull back and hire a face of the franchise type who can take the public lead on this fight. Not sure his ego will allow this but it would be the wise move.


I should note i hate public funding for pro sports facilities so think sarver should pony up and build the damn thing himself. Hell if he did that I would actually like the dude.
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[NavLDO]

9. Phoenix, without both its creators

Without Eric Bledsoe and Brandon Knight, the Suns have only two guys who can reliably create offense off the bounce -- Devin Booker and T.J. Warren. (On some nights, you can add Tyler Ulis and Mike James, but both are limited; no defense is scared of them.)

The Suns' offense dies when they both sit. Phoenix has scored just 94.4 points per 100 possessions in 182 such minutes -- a hair below Chicago's league-worst overall team mark, per NBA.com.

Maybe it doesn't matter. Phoenix isn't trying to win, even though they've been competitive under Jay Triano. There is developmental value in letting Ulis, Josh Jackson and Dragan Bender stretch themselves. It just isn't fun to watch.

P.S.: Warren is a midrange and floater wizard -- the NBA's Man of A Thousand Release Points -- but it would be nice if he occasionally passed the ball.


Tyson Chandler has suffered so much unrequited lob love during his sad time in Phoenix. Warren is dishing just 1.6 assists per 36 minutes. Meanwhile, he's jacking almost 19 shots per 36 minutes. Only 27 rotation players have ever shot so often while recording so few assists, and almost all of them were behemoth big-man finishers.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21528928/zach-lowe-10-things-like-including-ben-simmons-nba

Saw this by Lowe, and it's been something i've been thinking of this season. We really need Warren to be that second scorer to open things up for Booker, but he really has been a bit of a blackhole as a result, he made some nice passes in recent games but I think that is where he should focus on improving going forward this season. It's hard when we don't have a lot of guys on the team that make others around them better, but it is still awesome to see the team getting so many assists without a real starting PG. (Though Ulis has been a lot better lately other than his shooting)

Shawn Marion averaged 1.9 assists per game.
Cedric Ceballos averaged 1.2 assists per game.

Those are just examples of two great former Suns players who, like TJ, excelled playing off the ball.

It's not strange that these kind of players average under 2 assists per game, but that is not a bad thing at all because they CREATE assists and opportunities for other teammates with his movement without the ball, cuts and good positioning around the basket. They are not ball hogs and they usually shoot over 50% from the floor....like TJ.

I expect an improvement from TJ in his passing/assists if he has more the ball in his hands and has more plays run for him in the next future.

Saber...you've been posting some great stuff as of late; not to mean that you don't always, just I've noticed it more lately, I guess. Spot on. I'm not sure why you expect a finisher to be a 3-4 assist per night guy; his game isn't about ball movement. It' about positioning himself in a position to score so when the ball gets to him, he's putting it in the hole. His 1.3 APG is hardly the lowest on the team...Chriss' at 1.2, JJ's at 1.1, Dudley's at 1.2...why is this surprising? As long as his FG% is sitting at 50%, and the only starter besting him is the guy who shoots from within 3 ft...ALWAYS...I'm ok with that.

Of bigger concern is that our leading APG guy is our 2-Guard, and Leading Scorer...now THAT's a problem. Not that our SF is at 1.3 APG.

[NavLDO]

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21528928/zach-lowe-10-things-like-including-ben-simmons-nba

Saw this by Lowe, and it's been something i've been thinking of this season. We really need Warren to be that second scorer to open things up for Booker, but he really has been a bit of a blackhole as a result, he made some nice passes in recent games but I think that is where he should focus on improving going forward this season. It's hard when we don't have a lot of guys on the team that make others around them better, but it is still awesome to see the team getting so many assists without a real starting PG. (Though Ulis has been a lot better lately other than his shooting)

Shawn Marion averaged 1.9 assists per game.
Cedric Ceballos averaged 1.2 assists per game.

Those are just examples of two great former Suns players who, like TJ, excelled playing off the ball.

It's not strange that these kind of players average under 2 assists per game, but that is not a bad thing at all because they CREATE assists and opportunities for other teammates with his movement without the ball, cuts and good positioning around the basket. They are not ball hogs and they usually shoot over 50% from the floor....like TJ.

I expect an improvement from TJ in his passing/assists if he has more the ball in his hands and has more plays run for him in the next future.

I’ve been frustrated by it too. I don’t need him to necessarily get a ton of assists, what I’d like to see is simply him making a pass out of the drive that isn’t successful. He makes his mind up that he’s going to shoot and unfortunately even if he’s completely bottled up, the shot is going up, and it isn’t pretty.

I did notice a slight improvement in the games before the MIL loss, but overall it’s a concern I have for he and Booker (who does it when he’s given up his dribble and unsuccessfully pump faked a few times).

They’re still young tho.

Well, considering he trails only Lebron and Durant in VA and 2PT% (of those who've made over 100 2PT shots), and those two and George in PER at SF this season, I find it hard to find fault with the guy. Sure, his APG could be higher, and sure, his 3PT% could be higher, but we could also be paying 2-3x the amount we are paying him as well, as those other guys are. So for an average of what, $10M per, I'd say we've got a steal on our hands.

[bwgood77]

I'm not that concerned about TJ's assists, but Zach Lowe's point and example was that he was shooting against a double team off a pick n roll where Chandler was wide open under the hoop. It would have been a pretty hard pass to make, given where the defenders were, but Lowe seemed to think he could of lobbed it to Chandler. But he then pointed out how rare it is to shoot so much without recording assists.

I can't fault TJ since he's probably our most consistent reliable scorer, but that is one thing he could work on (along with 3 pt shooting), but as someone pointed out, if he was a great passer and great 3 pt shooter he'd be an all star max player.

Even though Booker has been recording more assists lately, he often takes tough shots over defenders when there might be someone wide open too.

But these guys are still young so there instincts will improve.

[NavLDO]

So bender has been getting a lot of the crunch time minutes the past few games, Chriss has been sitting. Tonight, Chriss has been replaced as a starter in favour of the twin C lineup, and now Chriss is in for garbage time.

Can't help but think that Chriss won't be back in the starting lineup anytime soon. If this is the case, I hope McD has learnt from previous lessons and plans to trade him sooner rather than later - he has value now which will only depreciate the longer we hold him. Guys who don't play become worthless over time.

Wow...barely 20 year old and just over a year in a Suns Uni and his luster has already faded, huh...no longer 'shiny', so we need to trade him away before he's too old or too disgruntled with the system.

I'm not saying he's untradable, but to trade him because he NEEDS to be traded? Don't you think that's a bit premature based upon a couple of starts/games?

Nevermind that he's what, 6th or 7th in Blks/Gm for PFs? Or that he still out-produces Bender in about half the stats? Why can't we wait until we have a non-interim HC, a non-interim PG, and have a Center that isn't either about to be traded, about to retire, about to leave to greener pastures, or is on IR for him to play next to, before we deem him our next bust. The guy's played basketball for all of a 'minute', and he's done pretty well for himself, I'd say.

Let's compare that to JJ...a guy who's been playing his whole life, was the #1 Recruit coming out of high school by most experts, is 5 months older than Chriss, was drafted at an earlier slot than Chriss and is currently actually playing behind one of the best in the league at his position. Chriss, however, won no such accolades, didn't play Varsity Basketball until his Sophomore year, and is currently battling a fellow draft pick, one that was drafted higher than he was for a starting role at his position, and is so far contributing more to this team than JJ is, yet Chriss is the one that needs to be on the trading block?

I get where you are coming from, to a point, but Chriss will likely take another 2-3 full seasons to develop; at which point he'll be 22-23 YO. I think we all need to be more patient with both him and Bender. If we are willing to be patient with JJ, why are we not willing to be patient with Chriss? Is it because he didn't come in with all these wonderful accolades, so he shouldn't get that chance because JJ has proven it before, and Chriss hasn't (at least to to the same extent...he obviously has, otherwise he wouldn't have been a top 10 prospect, and drafted as such last year)?

I've been rather impatient this Summer/Preseason and into the regular season. But as Bledsoe was on the trade block and Watson being fired, we obviously are in for yet ANOTHER long season. And unless a team feels like trading us a young or a borderline All-Star PG, I don't see how we can compete with just Booker, Warren, and I guess, Monroe.

Now, if a team, say the Magic, for argument sake, decide that Payton was not the PG they were looking for, and wanted to go a different route, and decided to Tank the rest of the year, maybe McD becomes intrigued and is willing to swap Chriss for Payton, or maybe Charlotte felt it was their time to rebuild, or maybe, retool, and they decided to take the Mia 2018 pick, Chriss, Knight, and Chandler, for Kemba Walker and Marvin Williams, basically ensuring them a lotto pick next year, possibly two, plus Chriss, and Knight as their Combo Guard, we get Kemba as a PG, and hopefully 'woo' Monroe to stay with us...then ok.

But to trade Chriss because he NEEDS to be traded? I think it's too early for that.

[Kerrsed]

I think that after like 12 years of trading our draft picks, some people forget how rokkies/youngsters play and develop. It doesnt happen overnight folks! And even with the select few that it does, there is no guarantee, just look at former rookie of the years MCW or Tyreke Evans or even Brogdon. You also have guys that played great their rookie season and made the 1st all Rookie team, but from there fell off a cliff like Okafor/Mirotic/Clarkson/Payton/Noel/Plumlee/Burke/Waiters/Faried/Knight/Shumpert .....the list goes on and on. Sure, some of those guys are still decent players, but quite a few of them have been surpassed by others from their draft class a year or two after that rookie season.

It takes time to develop guys, specially on a really bad team, but if they can find a way and find their game through these tough times, it makes it all the easier when we do have a few good players on the team next to them, as the defense will have to be more honest and not be all over them like flies on ****. Sure, Tatum looks a hell of a lot better than Jackson right now, but he is also playing with multiple all-stars and teams cant pester him like they can with Jackson when they play us. He gets much much much much much better looking shots.

Give it time people, thats all im saying.

[asudevil]

I think that after like 12 years of trading our draft picks, some people forget how rokkies/youngsters play and develop. It doesnt happen overnight folks! And even with the select few that it does, there is no guarantee, just look at former rookie of the years MCW or Tyreke Evans or even Brogdon. You also have guys that played great their rookie season and made the 1st all Rookie team, but from there fell off a cliff like Okafor/Mirotic/Clarkson/Payton/Noel/Plumlee/Burke/Waiters/Faried/Knight/Shumpert .....the list goes on and on. Sure, some of those guys are still decent players, but quite a few of them have been surpassed by others from their draft class a year or two after that rookie season.

It takes time to develop guys, specially on a really bad team, but if they can find a way and find their game through these tough times, it makes it all the easier when we do have a few good players on the team next to them, as the defense will have to be more honest and not be all over them like flies on ****. Sure, Tatum looks a hell of a lot better than Jackson right now, but he is also playing with multiple all-stars and teams cant pester him like they can with Jackson when they play us. He gets much much much much much better looking shots.

Give it time people, thats all im saying.

Agreed.

I also hate when we get excited about spending draft picks on extremely young guys, knowing they arent NBA ready. Then after a year or sometimes even less, they arent 20/10 guys and its time to trade them because they are a lost cause.

I'm pretty sure there we even posted almost ready to give up on Booker after a half season, and very limited minutes.

[NavLDO]

I think that after like 12 years of trading our draft picks, some people forget how rokkies/youngsters play and develop. It doesnt happen overnight folks! And even with the select few that it does, there is no guarantee, just look at former rookie of the years MCW or Tyreke Evans or even Brogdon. You also have guys that played great their rookie season and made the 1st all Rookie team, but from there fell off a cliff like Okafor/Mirotic/Clarkson/Payton/Noel/Plumlee/Burke/Waiters/Faried/Knight/Shumpert .....the list goes on and on. Sure, some of those guys are still decent players, but quite a few of them have been surpassed by others from their draft class a year or two after that rookie season.

It takes time to develop guys, specially on a really bad team, but if they can find a way and find their game through these tough times, it makes it all the easier when we do have a few good players on the team next to them, as the defense will have to be more honest and not be all over them like flies on ****. Sure, Tatum looks a hell of a lot better than Jackson right now, but he is also playing with multiple all-stars and teams cant pester him like they can with Jackson when they play us. He gets much much much much much better looking shots.

Give it time people, thats all im saying.

Exactly. We can't possibly judge Chriss, Bender, or JJ, just because Warren and Booker had the benefit of playing a full season with an 'interested' and 'engaged' PG in Bledsoe, and they did not. Sure, the Suns were bad the year prior as well, but not 4th-pick-in-the-draft-bad. Shoot, Warren even got to play with IT and Dragic for awhile. Even Book got to play with BK before he completely imploded, and PJ Tucker, aside from all his faults, he was still an energetic Veteran.

Chriss and Bender played with two younger players in Warren and Book, who were still learning the game themselves, as well as Big Sauce, and a Brand New HC in Watson. Hornacek was bad, but he was at least somewhat experienced in Xs and Os.

Now, we have Ulis, James, a still-young Book and Warren, along with Daniels, an interim coach, and an interim Center. Our team is a hot mess, and frankly, I'm surprised we are doing as well as we are (even though we aren't doing well--we aren't at the bottom...yet).

I certainly wouldn't look to trade any of them, but I would also understand if McD took advantage of the fact that we had so many youngsters in order to secure a more seasoned player.

[NavLDO]

I'm not that concerned about TJ's assists, but Zach Lowe's point and example was that he was shooting against a double team off a pick n roll where Chandler was wide open under the hoop. It would have been a pretty hard pass to make, given where the defenders were, but Lowe seemed to think he could of lobbed it to Chandler. But he then pointed out how rare it is to shoot so much without recording assists.

I can't fault TJ since he's probably our most consistent reliable scorer, but that is one thing he could work on (along with 3 pt shooting), but as someone pointed out, if he was a great passer and great 3 pt shooter he'd be an all star max player.

Even though Booker has been recording more assists lately, he often takes tough shots over defenders when there might be someone wide open too.

But these guys are still young so there instincts will improve.

Well, yeah, sure, and Book could work on his Defense, and so on and so forth, but it's like you said, if they had all these abilities, they would be All-Stars with All-Star Max contracts.

[thamadkant]

Tough situation right now for Suns and McD.


Why?

Well Suns will likely miss out on a top 5 pick. I don't think trading up for a top 5 pick is likely, unless its a pick 4 and another asset for a pick 3 or 2, depending on who is available.


Should they go the Timberwolves way and go for two big name stars to pair with Booker and co?

[NTB]

Tough situation right now for Suns and McD.


Why?

Well Suns will likely miss out on a top 5 pick. I don't think trading up for a top 5 pick is likely, unless its a pick 4 and another asset for a pick 3 or 2, depending on who is available.


Should they go the Timberwolves way and go for two big name stars to pair with Booker and co?

We won't miss out on a top 5 pick. (unless a bad luck in the lottery)

[Frank Lee]

hey i have a great idea.... lets take our top two picks this year, hedge our bet, and draft 2 PGs....

I'm sure in a year or so, we could figure out which one is worth keeping.

[thamadkant]

One bad thing about drafting too many rookies and signing players off D-league etc.

Players PLAY for themselves... who cares about winning much when they're trying to secure their future and contract.

You see this with Mike James, Ulis now.


And we saw this the last couple of years with no chemistry and players playing selfishly.



You need a team secured with their roles... hence telling players to play hard for minutes is not good for winning chemistry.

You need players who've accepted their roles and playing those roles as BEST as possible.

[bwgood77]

I think that after like 12 years of trading our draft picks, some people forget how rokkies/youngsters play and develop. It doesnt happen overnight folks! And even with the select few that it does, there is no guarantee, just look at former rookie of the years MCW or Tyreke Evans or even Brogdon. You also have guys that played great their rookie season and made the 1st all Rookie team, but from there fell off a cliff like Okafor/Mirotic/Clarkson/Payton/Noel/Plumlee/Burke/Waiters/Faried/Knight/Shumpert .....the list goes on and on. Sure, some of those guys are still decent players, but quite a few of them have been surpassed by others from their draft class a year or two after that rookie season.

It takes time to develop guys, specially on a really bad team, but if they can find a way and find their game through these tough times, it makes it all the easier when we do have a few good players on the team next to them, as the defense will have to be more honest and not be all over them like flies on ****. Sure, Tatum looks a hell of a lot better than Jackson right now, but he is also playing with multiple all-stars and teams cant pester him like they can with Jackson when they play us. He gets much much much much much better looking shots.

Give it time people, thats all im saying.

Agreed.

I also hate when we get excited about spending draft picks on extremely young guys, knowing they arent NBA ready. Then after a year or sometimes even less, they arent 20/10 guys and its time to trade them because they are a lost cause.

I'm pretty sure there we even posted almost ready to give up on Booker after a half season, and very limited minutes.

It is pretty amazing how many people say they don't think Chriss/Bender will amount to anything when they are younger than most college players and played one year on a terrible team under a terrible coach. Most of the top picks outside of Tatum in this draft, many of which are around the same age as Chriss/Bender are looking awful...they are almost all, if not all, shooting under 40%.

http://bkref.com/tiny/oZD6R