Cavs/Knicks/OKC in 3 Way Trade Talks (JR+SHUMP TRADED TO CLE)

[ORANGEandBLUE]

you're changing the argument. you said nobody wanted him. the suns were interested too. you can find the link.

Fine. But he's not going to opt out. His value is diminished due to poor play and injuries.

[FKF]

My top two tweets since the trade:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/HowardBeck/status/552297269043945473[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/alanhahn/status/552480912836132865[/tweet]

Cap space is more valuable than any other asset of an NBA roster. People who don't understand that, fail to understand the current CBA rules.
Cap space allows you to make offer to free agents, and also allows you to swallow a large contract in a trade.
Say the Clippers lose again in the P/O and Chris Paul demands a trade, Knicks could offer a trade exception and pair Melo & CP3, a trade exception is better to have for the trading partner than a bad contract.
Cap space is infinity times more valuable than JR Smith and Iman Shumpert, yet we got cap space in return of that package plus a 2nd round pick. And people still complain ? Oh well... talk to you in July...

JR was a loser with too much money guaranteed until the end of the 2015-16 season and needed to go. Even when we made the play-offs, he was a loser. We could have swept Boston but JR gave them momentum for two more games.
I really wish Shump well cause he stopped the 20-0 Celtics run in game 6, and nearly won us that game 6 in Indy. I hope he can be a solid pro but Cleveland doesn't look like a great place and a great organization with all the chaos out there...

[R-DAWG]

Anyone who hates this deal clearly hasn't watched the last 15 years. We are finally rebuilding the right way. Clearing cap space and starting over with Melo still in his prime locked in. If we are able to get the first pick in the draft your looking at a completely different situation next year.

In all honesty rebuilding the right way would have been trading Melo for a bunch of picks/young players and having 2-3 lotto years while preserving long term cap space. Most likely you draft 1 star, acquire star 2 in a trade, and then star 3 via free agency. Rebuilding around a 31 year old with limited assets isn't exactly the "right way".

Landing the first pick in the draft and a potential franchise player changes the outlook of everything. Because the goal then becomes developing the young player than winning a championship with Melo.

That is correct. If the Knicks were rebuilding (and there's real valid arguments for them to do so) the first thing would be to trade Carmelo Anthony. But it's pretty clear whether it's by Jackson or Dolan that they are building around him.

And the only reason I'm ok with this is because we still owe compensation for him. Having said that I'm very curious as to what the Bulls offer would have been in a S/T. Mirtoic + Butler + 1-2 1st rd picks? I'd be pretty pumped having Mirtic, Butler, and a top 5 pick along with a ton of cap space this summer.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Nobody was offering JR as much as we did. Dude was coming off a terrible playoffs and was damaged goods. We overpaid then signed his bum ass brother too. Grunnie got fleeced.

That was a terrible terrible signing.

grunnie made some great signings and found some nice rotation players from no where but his contract offers were awful.

The deals he gave felton, JR, and Novak were atrocious deals. We had to trade pieces just to move all 3.

Kidd and Camby were bad too. We are lucky Kidd retired. He'd still be here.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

The Josh Smith debacle is just another example of the AWAKENING going on around the league of how DESTRUCTIVE players like JR are. Every year there's a few more Execs who just won't touch him. Only desparate idiots like the Cavs GM.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Anyone who hates this deal clearly hasn't watched the last 15 years. We are finally rebuilding the right way. Clearing cap space and starting over with Melo still in his prime locked in. If we are able to get the first pick in the draft your looking at a completely different situation next year.

In all honesty rebuilding the right way would have been trading Melo for a bunch of picks/young players and having 2-3 lotto years while preserving long term cap space. Most likely you draft 1 star, acquire star 2 in a trade, and then star 3 via free agency. Rebuilding around a 31 year old with limited assets isn't exactly the "right way".

Landing the first pick in the draft and a potential franchise player changes the outlook of everything. Because the goal then becomes developing the young player than winning a championship with Melo.

That is correct. If the Knicks were rebuilding (and there's real valid arguments for them to do so) the first thing would be to trade Carmelo Anthony. But it's pretty clear whether it's by Jackson or Dolan that they are building around him.

But that could not be done if we didn't resign Melo. And we don't have our pick next year. We are already tanking this season. There is really no risk in waiting a year to see how this pans out. We can always trade Melo in a year. But if we trade Melo now there's no going back from that.

[god shammgod]

you're changing the argument. you said nobody wanted him. the suns were interested too. you can find the link.

Fine. But he's not going to opt out. His value is diminished due to poor play and injuries.

i don't think so either. not here. weird thing is that if he plays well in the playoffs for cleveland he might. but we don't know we even needed the money.

[omerome]

Anyone who hates this deal clearly hasn't watched the last 15 years. We are finally rebuilding the right way. Clearing cap space and starting over with Melo still in his prime locked in. If we are able to get the first pick in the draft your looking at a completely different situation next year.

In all honesty rebuilding the right way would have been trading Melo for a bunch of picks/young players and having 2-3 lotto years while preserving long term cap space. Most likely you draft 1 star, acquire star 2 in a trade, and then star 3 via free agency. Rebuilding around a 31 year old with limited assets isn't exactly the "right way".

Landing the first pick in the draft and a potential franchise player changes the outlook of everything. Because the goal then becomes developing the young player than winning a championship with Melo.

Couldn't we still trade Melo now or has something changed if that's the way Phil decides to go? The point is right now we have options. We have the possibility of getting a top 3 pick and drafting him to play with Carmelo Anthony with cap space. We can stretch Calderon if we can't find any takers, sign solid players, or continue to build assets. Before, we just had cap space to go on.

Also, I don't think there is a "right way" to build a team. A lot of it has to do with luck, too. If there was, every single team would do it. If the Spurs didn't win the lottery when they drafted Duncan, they would be in a completely different situation today and it could be Boston who got Duncan and have another dynasty for their franchise. If Portland drafted Durant, OKC would be in a completely different situation, too. You just have to put yourself in good position and do the best you can with what you have.

[R-DAWG]

In all honesty rebuilding the right way would have been trading Melo for a bunch of picks/young players and having 2-3 lotto years while preserving long term cap space. Most likely you draft 1 star, acquire star 2 in a trade, and then star 3 via free agency. Rebuilding around a 31 year old with limited assets isn't exactly the "right way".

Landing the first pick in the draft and a potential franchise player changes the outlook of everything. Because the goal then becomes developing the young player than winning a championship with Melo.

That is correct. If the Knicks were rebuilding (and there's real valid arguments for them to do so) the first thing would be to trade Carmelo Anthony. But it's pretty clear whether it's by Jackson or Dolan that they are building around him.

But that could not be done if we didn't resign Melo. And we don't have our pick next year. We are already tanking this season. There is really no risk in waiting a year to see how this pans out. We can always trade Melo in a year. But if we trade Melo now there's no going back from that.

incorrect. we could have done a sign and trade with the Bulls.

[ORANGEandBLUE]

i don't think so either. not here. weird thing is that if he plays well in the playoffs for cleveland he might. but we don't know we even need the money.

By the time we do know, it'll be too late... we wouldn't have Shump under contract to trade him as sweetener, and if a team knows we need to dump JR to land Gasol, they're gonna extract a king's ransom from us.

[K_ick_God]

Anyone who hates this deal clearly hasn't watched the last 15 years. We are finally rebuilding the right way. Clearing cap space and starting over with Melo still in his prime locked in. If we are able to get the first pick in the draft your looking at a completely different situation next year.

They're not really criticizing Phil's ideas, direction or implementation. They're just frustrated that our record stinks, that Phil is paid well and is above the fray in a godly kind of way, and that he may have guessed wrong on a couple of guys -- Calderon and Early have been shaky at best. That happens. It's very easy to guess wrong on a young player's trajectory or even an established player like Calderon. Lakers went all-in on Nash and it blew up in their faces. The same GM who looked like a genius with the Pau move, etc.

I'm not a Monday morning QB so I will say clearly that Jose was worth the gamble. He was an historically highly efficient PG who can run an offense and shoot, which fit the criteria of his system, a system that has won big ... certainly bigger than anything Woodson or the other clowns, D'Antoni included, will ever produce. With Melo coming back at age 30, you couldn't tank. And to gamble a few million bucks on improving your PG play from a very bad player like Ray was worth it. Hopefully Jose has more left in the tank -- we'll see. If not, oh well. He still made that move getting younger and preserving most of his cap space. By dumping JR, he is net positive on cap space between these two main moves. And with the cap going through the roof in 2016, people are way too hung up on Jose's contract IMO. And that's even if Jose sucks going forward.

Acy is restricted, Thanasis and Early will get a chance to improve, hopefully Cole comes back at a fair price -- he's improved our stockpile of assets without hurting 2015/16. 95% of his job remains.

This is just leftover anger from previous mismanagement. We made bad moves right up until getting Phil, moves that he's trying to get us to recover from. Not easy to dig out. Phil is a big name so people expect him to be perfect or to instantly produce results. Okay I guess. Realistic? Not really.

[E-Balla]

Shumpert isn't a can't miss asset. But he's a strong defender on an expiring contract. That is value.

Think about it. Why would a team with a better record want the 2 of them if they are such crap? Why would the Cavaliers want to take on a cancer and an injured dud? Why would they want to take a "guaranteed" extra year on Smith if they know that both James and Love can go elsewhere? Maybe...just maybe...they actually don't use their personal dislike of JR Smith (and Shumpert) to cloud their judgment? Why are we assuming that Phil Jackson, the GM (not head coach but GM) is better than the Cavs GM at...well...GM'ing?

They did this because it got rid of Dion and got them a first round pick. JR is a negative value guy and Shump is an expiring they can dump. It came down to how much they disliked Dion not how much they liked Shump.

Why would the Cavs who are trying to win now value a 1st round pick of the Thunder of all teams in the future? And if JR Smith is such a negative why would they want to replace Dion Waiters with him? JR Smith is a negative value right? The Cavs could have just bought a bottom of the barrel 1st round pick if they wanted to. They still have their $3 million allotment. Is the hair brained plan for them to buy another 1st round pick so they can have 2? And let's forget that the biggest problem with Waiters is his unwillingness to come off the bench which is something that JR Smith has done his entire career well. And we'll also forget that the Cavs biggest weakness is defending the perimeter which...oh...so...happens to be Shumpert's best (only) skill. The Cavs replace a guy that didn't fit their system because he wasn't willing to come off the bench for a guy that has done real well off the bench. They also managed to instantly upgrade their perimeter defense for when it matter most (the playoffs). But yep, the trade wasn't for Smith or Shumpert.

Obviously they traded for guys they'll rather have than Dion. Doesn't mean they are willing to send us anything but the table scraps like we got for JR and Shump. I'd rather have McDonald's than Burger King but it doesn't mean I'll pay $15 for McDonald's. Their plan was to dump Dion and hopefully get a replacement. They got a perfect replacement too in a young guy who hasn't shown much of anything outside of a weakness you have and another guy in JR that is as much of a knucklehead as Dion but actually willing to play the role you want Dion in.

Also Phil isn't the GM. Mills does the actual GM'ing.

[Capn'O]

The Josh Smith debacle is just another example of the AWAKENING going on around the league of how DESTRUCTIVE players like JR are. Every year there's a few more Execs who just won't touch him. Only desparate idiots like the Cavs GM.

NO MORE JSMITHS!

[R-DAWG]

Anyone who hates this deal clearly hasn't watched the last 15 years. We are finally rebuilding the right way. Clearing cap space and starting over with Melo still in his prime locked in. If we are able to get the first pick in the draft your looking at a completely different situation next year.

In all honesty rebuilding the right way would have been trading Melo for a bunch of picks/young players and having 2-3 lotto years while preserving long term cap space. Most likely you draft 1 star, acquire star 2 in a trade, and then star 3 via free agency. Rebuilding around a 31 year old with limited assets isn't exactly the "right way".

Landing the first pick in the draft and a potential franchise player changes the outlook of everything. Because the goal then becomes developing the young player than winning a championship with Melo.

Couldn't we still trade Melo now or has something changed if that's the way Phil decides to go? The point is right now we have options. We have the possibility of getting a top 3 pick and drafting him to play with Carmelo Anthony with cap space. We can stretch Calderon if we can't find any takers, sign solid players, or continue to build assets. Before, we just had cap space to go on. If we do land the first pick in the draft, we can have a potential franchise player and combine him with our current franchise player who mind you, isn't some random scrub. He is still one of the best players in the league.

Also, I don't think there is a "right way" to build a team. A lot of it has to do with luck, too. If there was, every single team would do it. If the Spurs didn't win the lottery when they drafted Duncan, they would be in a completely different situation today and it could be Boston who got Duncan and have another dynasty for their franchise. If Portland drafted Durant, OKC would be in a completely different situation, too. You just have to put yourself in good position and do the best you can with what you have.

If we stretch Calderon's $15 million after this year as opposed to the $3.9 million remaining on Felton's deal the Tyson trade becomes historically bad.

[god shammgod]

The Josh Smith debacle is just another example of the AWAKENING going on around the league of how DESTRUCTIVE players like JR are. Every year there's a few more Execs who just won't touch him. Only desparate idiots like the Cavs GM.

NO MORE JSMITHS!

we still have the worst one. and the mighty poobha brought him here.

[PMFJB]

My top two tweets since the trade:

[tweet]https://twitter.com/HowardBeck/status/552297269043945473[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/alanhahn/status/552480912836132865[/tweet]

Cap space is more valuable than any other asset of an NBA roster. People who don't understand that, fail to understand the current CBA rules.
Cap space allows you to make offer to free agents, and also allows you to swallow a large contract in a trade.
Say the Clippers lose again in the P/O and Chris Paul demands a trade, Knicks could offer a trade exception and pair Melo & CP3, a trade exception is better to have for the trading partner than a bad contract.
Cap space is infinity times more valuable than JR Smith and Iman Shumpert, yet we got cap space in return of that package plus a 2nd round pick. And people still complain ? Oh well... talk to you in July...

JR was a loser with too much money guaranteed until the end of the 2015-16 season and needed to go. Even when we made the play-offs, he was a loser. We could have swept Boston but JR gave them momentum for two more games.
I really wish Shump well cause he stopped the 20-0 Celtics run in game 6, and nearly won us that game 6 in Indy. I hope he can be a solid pro but Cleveland doesn't look like a great place and a great organization with all the chaos out there...

I don't care what Alan Homer has to say. He is the biggest homer out there and always tries to put a positive spin on everything Knicks related.

[moocow007]

In all honesty rebuilding the right way would have been trading Melo for a bunch of picks/young players and having 2-3 lotto years while preserving long term cap space. Most likely you draft 1 star, acquire star 2 in a trade, and then star 3 via free agency. Rebuilding around a 31 year old with limited assets isn't exactly the "right way".

Landing the first pick in the draft and a potential franchise player changes the outlook of everything. Because the goal then becomes developing the young player than winning a championship with Melo.

That is correct. If the Knicks were rebuilding (and there's real valid arguments for them to do so) the first thing would be to trade Carmelo Anthony. But it's pretty clear whether it's by Jackson or Dolan that they are building around him.

But that could not be done if we didn't resign Melo. And we don't have our pick next year. We are already tanking this season. There is really no risk in waiting a year to see how this pans out. We can always trade Melo in a year. But if we trade Melo now there's no going back from that.

Like I said in the other post, if Anthony was bitten by one of the Cullen's then absolutely, we can just keep trying. But if the goal is to maximize value for Anthony in a trade you really can't wait until 2017. Now is the time. Whether we have our own pick in 2016 or not is offset by father time on Anthony. Ideal world, we'd have traded that player portion of the package for Antony for some draft picks and tanked well before hand. The team before Anthony was headed for middle of the pack limbo. Trading for Anthony was a shot at getting into the upper tier but a real tough one considering how much it cost to get him. As much as folks think I'm an Anthony lover, the ideal, ideal, ideal scenario would have been trading Gallinari and Chandler and Lin when he Linsanitized for future assets and do full rebuild.

[R-DAWG]

Anyone who hates this deal clearly hasn't watched the last 15 years. We are finally rebuilding the right way. Clearing cap space and starting over with Melo still in his prime locked in. If we are able to get the first pick in the draft your looking at a completely different situation next year.

They're not really criticizing Phil's ideas, direction or implementation. They're just frustrated that our record stinks, that Phil is paid well and is above the fray in a godly kind of way, and that he may have guessed wrong on a couple of guys -- Calderon and Early have been shaky at best. That happens. It's very easy to guess wrong on a young player's trajectory or even an established player like Calderon. Lakers went all-in on Nash and it blew up in their faces. The same GM who looked like a genius with the Pau move, etc.

I'm not a Monday morning QB so I will say clearly that Jose was worth the gamble. He was an historically highly efficient PG who can run an offense and shoot, which fit the criteria of his system, a system that has won big ... certainly bigger than anything Woodson or the other clowns, D'Antoni included, will ever produce. With Melo coming back at age 30, you couldn't tank. And to gamble a few million bucks on improving your PG play from a very bad player like Ray was worth it. Hopefully Jose has more left in the tank -- we'll see. If not, oh well. He still made that move getting younger and preserving most of his cap space. By dumping JR, he is net positive on cap space between these two main moves. And with the cap going through the roof in 2016, people are way too hung up on Jose's contract IMO. And that's even if Jose sucks going forward.

Acy is restricted, Thanasis and Early will get a chance to improve, hopefully Cole comes back at a fair price -- he's improved our stockpile of assets without hurting 2015/16. 95% of his job remains.

This is just leftover anger from previous mismanagement. We made bad moves right up until getting Phil, moves that he's trying to get us to recover from. Not easy to dig out. Phil is a big name so people expect him to be perfect or to instantly produce results. Okay I guess. Realistic? Not really.

re: Cole - my understanding is that he as a $1.9m cap hold (190% of current salary with bird rights)

[Capn'O]

The Josh Smith debacle is just another example of the AWAKENING going on around the league of how DESTRUCTIVE players like JR are. Every year there's a few more Execs who just won't touch him. Only desparate idiots like the Cavs GM.

NO MORE JSMITHS!

we still have the worst one. and the mighty poobha brought him here.

HE CAN KICK ROCKS AT THE END OF THE YEAR AND SIGN WITH EITHER OF THE OTHER TWO!!!

[PMFJB]

The Josh Smith debacle is just another example of the AWAKENING going on around the league of how DESTRUCTIVE players like JR are. Every year there's a few more Execs who just won't touch him. Only desparate idiots like the Cavs GM.

NO MORE JSMITHS!

we still have the worst one. and the mighty poobha brought him here.

Very very negative.