Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[Rerisen]

Does anyone else get the feeling that the bulls organization is putting up a front and that behind the scenes is just pure chaos? The vibe around our team is that we are on the verge of imploding.

Wonder if we got rid of the one guy that knew what the hell he was doing, at least made the trains run on time.

[NecessaryEvil]

So Tom knew what he was doing now?

Let's not get back into this Thibs nonsense again.

[musiqsoulchild]

Does anyone else get the feeling that the bulls organization is putting up a front and that behind the scenes is just pure chaos? The vibe around our team is that we are on the verge of imploding.

Wonder if we got rid of the one guy that knew what the hell he was doing, at least made the trains run on time.

Oh yeah, the trains came in on time and the wheels fell apart as soon as he got the train into the station.

[Rerisen]

Oh yeah, the trains came in on time and the wheels fell apart as soon as he got the train into the station.

That happens when your entire team has rusty wheels!

[Leslie Forman]

Does anyone else get the feeling that the bulls organization is putting up a front and that behind the scenes is just pure chaos? The vibe around our team is that we are on the verge of imploding.

Wonder if we got rid of the one guy that knew what the hell he was doing, at least made the trains run on time.

Bulls roster = Iraq
Thibs = Saddam
Jimmy Butler = ISIS

[Defensive ID]

I don't like all the Butler bashing but he is causing division without the resume or a winning template. This should not be happening on a championship organization. Have we learned nothing from the Lakers?

[theanimal23]

Not sure if posted prior, but Wilbon speaks...at about 6 min mark
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=14426769

[BoozerRoNo]

Going back to Jimmy Butler's fight against Mason Plumlee and the only guy on the court that seemed to care was Kirk Hinrich. Rose practicing his shot. Mirotic looking like I don't want to get touched. Gasol kind of looked concerned but not enough. It wasn't a serious fight but still.....It reminds me of the Quincy Acy and John Wall fight and Melo was the only one that cared.

Our coach or players have to be tough. At the time Rose, Gasol, Snell, Mirotic being soft and not caring and Hoiberg laid back. Jimmy couldn't take it.

[Rerisen]

Not sure if posted prior, but Wilbon speaks...at about 6 min mark
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=14426769

Another person backing up Jimmy, kind of went off on Fred, wow.

[chrispatrick]

I don't like all the Butler bashing but he is causing division without the resume or a winning template. This should not be happening on a championship organization. Have we learned nothing from the Lakers?

Who besides LeBron and this year's version of Steph Curry could build a winning resume on a team that starts the current version of Derrick Rose with his 9 PER and Tony Snell with his 6 PER? Nevermind what we are paying Rose, I can't think of anyone else who could make this great when you have 2 starters like that.

I'm not saying Jimmy going to the media is a smart thing. Everything he's saying is true, just needs to be behind closed doors.

[Defensive ID]

Very media-ocre player at best.

[coldfish]

I'm just curious, is there *anyone* who is saying that what Butler said was good form on his part?

Some people may think he was correct in his evaluation but that isn't the same as being correct in his method for delivering it.

Given that we all agree that Jimmy was wrong to go public like this, I'll ask someone like Musiq:
- Do you believe the FO planted KC's reports as retaliation?
- If so, do you believe that was the correct thing to do, given the situation?

There is a significant difference between KC having his own team sources which he's estalished over the years that may have mentioned this to him vs. Gar Forman directly speaking to Johnson, giving him some nuggets to purposely shame Butler.

I think most would accept that the source is someone involved with the team. The debate is whether it was as sinister as some, like yourself, would suggest it to be.

Maybe I am naive, but why does the source needs to be the GM, who spoke in such a vindictive manner to assassinate Butler's character, and not just an assistant coach or someone similar that casually mentioned this to Johnson?

As for the quick timing, is it not possible that Johnson already knew all this from a source, and was sitting on it for the right time? With help from Butler, the right time presented itself.

Well, let's think about this.
- KC already sat on a story that put the Bulls in a bad light. I have little doubt that you are correct that he probably had some or all of this information available before Jimmy went off. That said, KC has given the indication that he doesn't say anything negative about someone on the Bulls without bouncing it off someone pretty high up.
- Someone was pointing out that Funk was being exceptionally negative towards Butler. King trashed Butler in an interview. Same stuff as last year with Thibs. Whomever it is that leaked information is high up enough in the organization that he can direct Funk, King and KC
- The Bulls front office, specifically Gar but others too, do not like middle management types talking negatively to the media or even just not being on script. The war between upper management and Thibs was awful last year and it claimed Adams before that. If it isn't Gar that is doing or approving the leaking, that person has some guts because they clearly could get fired for it. Don't forget the report of the assistant coach being worried his office was bugged.
- A person associated with this website once told me that Gar Forman himself contacted him regarding things he had written elsewhere to correct some things. Gar personally monitors media information.

So, yeah, I can't completely dismiss your logic but the past history points to Gar himself as the guy who called KC and either green lighted the information KC already had or he gave it to KC.

[kingkirk]

Well, let's think about this.
- KC already sat on a story that put the Bulls in a bad light. I have little doubt that you are correct that he probably had some or all of this information available before Jimmy went off. That said, KC has given the indication that he doesn't say anything negative about someone on the Bulls without bouncing it off someone pretty high up.
- Someone was pointing out that Funk was being exceptionally negative towards Butler. King trashed Butler in an interview. Same stuff as last year with Thibs. Whomever it is that leaked information is high up enough in the organization that he can direct Funk, King and KC
- The Bulls front office, specifically Gar but others too, do not like middle management types talking negatively to the media or even just not being on script. The war between upper management and Thibs was awful last year and it claimed Adams before that. If it isn't Gar that is doing or approving the leaking, that person has some guts because they clearly could get fired for it. Don't forget the report of the assistant coach being worried his office was bugged.
- A person associated with this website once told me that Gar Forman himself contacted him regarding things he had written elsewhere to correct some things. Gar personally monitors media information.

So, yeah, I can't completely dismiss your logic but the past history points to Gar himself as the guy who called KC and either green lighted the information KC already had or he gave it to KC.

I understand everything you're saying. They're valid points, but I guess I can't get past the logic of what Gar has to gain here by leaking stuff to Johnson.

If he's trying to protect Hoiberg by insinuating Butler is being a problem child, it doesn't make Fred look great after 25 games if his best player is cussing everyone out.

Similarly, alienating your best player, who you just signed to a 5 yr / 94m deal, by dropping information, seems counter productive.

I can buy them selling stories to the media when it came to Tom Thibodeau given the relationship was so bad, but before this outburst from Butler, we had no information at all suggesting there was tension between Gar and Butler for him to do so.

I don't know, perhaps I'm being naive here, but I don't see the benefit of Gar going to Johnson and giving him this info that would have the entire national media speculating about his team, the roster he's constructed, he's decision to fire Tom / hire Fred etc.

[Rerisen]

Similarly, alienating your best player, who you just signed to a 5 yr / 94m deal, by dropping information, seems counter productive.

Just because something is counter productive, doesn't mean it won't be done, especially where egos and taking things personally are considered.

What they did to Thibs all last year was certainly counter productive, and it hurt the entire team, but they did it anyway to help smooth their way for the firing of Thibs and get the eventual heat off of them for when they did do it. They knew a former COY had a lot of cred built up and they wanted to to knock that down to save their own skin.

While they easily could have let Thibs run out the season, keeping his authority on the team as much as that was possible, and simply fired him at the end of the year for failing to get past a crippled Cleveland team. Or simply letting some of the other atmosphere problems only come out at that point.

These guys have all the hallmarks of being extremely insular and prickly. Look at the amateur feud with Jeff Van Gundy, and Gar shouting profanities at him from the sidelines at a game.

[RedBulls23]

Not sure if posted prior, but Wilbon speaks...at about 6 min mark
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=14426769

Another person backing up Jimmy, kind of went off on Fred, wow.

When Wilbon was backing Rose the last few years, it was interesting how people didn't pay him much attention.

[kingkirk]

Just because something is counter productive, doesn't mean it won't be done, especially where egos and taking things personally are considered.

What they did to Thibs all last year was certainly counter productive, and it hurt the entire team, but they did it anyway to help smooth their way for the firing of Thibs and get the eventual heat off of them for when they did do it. They knew a former COY had a lot of cred built up and they wanted to to knock that down to save their own skin.

While they easily could have let Thibs run out the season, keeping his authority on the team as much as that was possible, and simply fired him at the end of the year for failing to get past a crippled Cleveland team. Or simply letting some of the other atmosphere problems only come out at that point.

These guys have all the hallmarks of being extremely insular and prickly. Look at the amateur feud with Jeff Van Gundy, and Gar shouting profanities at him from the sidelines at a game.

So I ask again, what do they gain here by doing this, even if some elements are counter productive? The information presented from Johnson doesn't paint Hoiberg in a positive light.

If anything, it enhances Butler's argument that Fred is soft.

[Rerisen]

So I ask again, what do they gain here by doing this, even if some elements are counter productive? The information presented from Johnson doesn't paint Hoiberg in a positive light.

If anything, it enhances Butler's argument that Fred is soft.

Their primary concern is their own standing even beyond Fred Hoiberg.

That is related to the organizational culture not looking bad in the press. This is very important to the Bulls. And we saw how when Cowley reported internal dysfunction, it led to the amazingly rare event of Reinsdorf responding in the press trying to stamp it out. Even though Cowley's sources were internal ones, from within his own org!

So the message to Butler is a threat. Make us look bad, we can make you look bad. Stop it.

And it even begins to lay some ground work for potentially getting rid of him, should this somehow careen off the rails and Butler were to become some kind of malcontent star unhappy with the team / situation.

[Axl Rose]

So Tom knew what he was doing now?

Let's not get back into this Thibs nonsense again.

exactly lets not rewrite history

the patterns of what we were seeing this year were there last year. lets not forget the classic "you're in the circle or out of it" this team has been on a crash course and unfortunately Hoiberg is having to deal with the bolder that was already rolling down hill

i don't think things would be much better under thibs. we probably would have avoided the circus of Jimmy's comments because he wouldn't have had the balls to say something negative about thibs. which is kinda weak.

[fleet]

Just because something is counter productive, doesn't mean it won't be done, especially where egos and taking things personally are considered.

What they did to Thibs all last year was certainly counter productive, and it hurt the entire team, but they did it anyway to help smooth their way for the firing of Thibs and get the eventual heat off of them for when they did do it. They knew a former COY had a lot of cred built up and they wanted to to knock that down to save their own skin.

While they easily could have let Thibs run out the season, keeping his authority on the team as much as that was possible, and simply fired him at the end of the year for failing to get past a crippled Cleveland team. Or simply letting some of the other atmosphere problems only come out at that point.

These guys have all the hallmarks of being extremely insular and prickly. Look at the amateur feud with Jeff Van Gundy, and Gar shouting profanities at him from the sidelines at a game.

So I ask again, what do they gain here by doing this, even if some elements are counter productive? The information presented from Johnson doesn't paint Hoiberg in a positive light.

If anything, it enhances Butler's argument that Fred is soft.

It does do that. But they probably feel like Jimmy would be too dominant in the organization if they let him go unchecked, and I see Jimmy and the Bulls at odds when it comes down to metabolizing the development of the team. Jimmy wants results. He doesn't want to settle for 15-11. They don't want him embarrassing them every year as they dither.

[RedBulls23]

Just because something is counter productive, doesn't mean it won't be done, especially where egos and taking things personally are considered.

What they did to Thibs all last year was certainly counter productive, and it hurt the entire team, but they did it anyway to help smooth their way for the firing of Thibs and get the eventual heat off of them for when they did do it. They knew a former COY had a lot of cred built up and they wanted to to knock that down to save their own skin.

While they easily could have let Thibs run out the season, keeping his authority on the team as much as that was possible, and simply fired him at the end of the year for failing to get past a crippled Cleveland team. Or simply letting some of the other atmosphere problems only come out at that point.

These guys have all the hallmarks of being extremely insular and prickly. Look at the amateur feud with Jeff Van Gundy, and Gar shouting profanities at him from the sidelines at a game.

So I ask again, what do they gain here by doing this, even if some elements are counter productive? The information presented from Johnson doesn't paint Hoiberg in a positive light.

If anything, it enhances Butler's argument that Fred is soft.

It does do that. But they probably feel like Jimmy would be too dominant in the organization if they let him go unchecked, and I see Jimmy and the Bulls at odds when it comes down to metabolizing the development of the team. Jimmy wants results. He doesn't want to settle for 15-11. They don't want him embarrassing them every year as they dither.