Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[Rerisen]

We can ask how was Jimmy going to the press productive for him?

It wasn't. That doesn't mean it stopped him doing it when he was ticked off. And good bet his words ticked Gar or the FO off in kind and they reacted with a similar kneejerk response.

I know we are suppose to think a FO is more calm and calculating than a player, but in cases like this, it does not look like they are.

If they wanted Fred to look strong, he could have handed down a punishment. But perhaps they feel that would poison the nascent Fred/Jimmy relationship, so they can play the bad cop on this one, allowing Fred to try and smooth it over for his part with a simple sit down.

But coming as it were from anonymous sources and airing out these petty sounding incidents that Butler was not punished at the time for, looks just like tit for tat.

[fleet]

So I ask again, what do they gain here by doing this, even if some elements are counter productive? The information presented from Johnson doesn't paint Hoiberg in a positive light.

If anything, it enhances Butler's argument that Fred is soft.

It does do that. But they probably feel like Jimmy would be too dominant in the organization if they let him go unchecked, and I see Jimmy and the Bulls at odds when it comes down to metabolizing the development of the team. Jimmy wants results. He doesn't want to settle for 15-11. They don't want him embarrassing them every year as they dither.

\
That looks like JCVD reaching for a.......ah

[RedBulls23]

It does do that. But they probably feel like Jimmy would be too dominant in the organization if they let him go unchecked, and I see Jimmy and the Bulls at odds when it comes down to metabolizing the development of the team. Jimmy wants results. He doesn't want to settle for 15-11. They don't want him embarrassing them every year as they dither.

\
That looks like JCVD reaching for a.......ah

Well their certainly IS a lot of reaching going on around here

[fleet]

\
That looks like JCVD reaching for a.......ah

Well their certainly IS a lot of reaching going on around here

[Rerisen]

NBA.com Blog staff quite a bit more positive on welcoming Jimmy as our new overlord, than Friedell:

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2015/12/23/blogtable-butlers-desire-to-lead-is-__/

> Jimmy Butler’s desire to become the leader of the Chicago Bulls is ___.

David Aldridge, NBA.com: Understandable, but a little premature. He had a great season last year, but Chicago still has a lot of guys with pelts whose opinions should be heeded first: Noah and Gasol come to mind. And while Derrick Rose‘s game has deteriorated, and while he’s not the most vocal guy, he still has to have some sway in the locker room. It will be Butler’s team very soon, but a max contract does not automatically make you the team spokesman.

Steve Aschburner, NBA.com: Understandable, for two reasons. One: Everything Butler has achieved in basketball, he has identified and seized. Having reached All-Star/max-contract status, it seems only logical he would reach next for something intangible and team-focused. Two: Chicago’s roster has a leadership void. Derrick Rose‘s personality meant he would only be a leader-by-example in the best of times, and Rose’s play is a nightly reminder that these aren’t his best of times. Pau Gasol is too centered and mature, maybe, to bring the histrionics that sometimes are required of locker-room leaders. Joakim Noah has been the Bulls’ heart but his role has been diminished, coming off the bench. Unfortunately for the Bulls and Butler, grabbing at leadership rarely works. At its best, it gets bestowed upon someone by ready and willing followers. That hasn’t happened with Butler and this bunch, and it remains to be seen whether it will.

Fran Blinebury, NBA.com: Admirable. But if you have to say it, you’re not actually getting it done.

Scott Howard-Cooper, NBA.com: Admirable. Great. All the positive adjectives. How could there be something wrong with wanting that role? He’s got the credibility on the court to back it up. That doesn’t mean there won’t be some rough moments and it doesn’t mean he has to be the leader, as opposed to one of them. The players will decide whether he is worth following, but trying to assert himself in that job is fine.

Shaun Powell, NBA.com: Ambitious? Look, I like the kid. He’s come a long way, and he’s the best player on the Bulls and perhaps Top 20 in the game. But leadership is new to him; he even admitted as much. Eventually I think he’ll learn how and when to criticize and what buttons to push. He’s going about it clumsy now, but he’s the future of the Bulls and he’ll figure it out.

John Schuhmann, NBA.com: … off to a rough start. The Bulls’ 15-11 record actually belies how mediocre they’ve been. Fred Hoiberg was supposed to improve the offense, but no team has regressed more on that end of the floor. So it’s easy to understand Butler’s frustration. But calling out your coach after a game, when you have other veteran leader types in the locker room, might not be a good look. And Monday’s loss to Brooklyn is a good indication that what he said didn’t exactly galvanize his team and get them on the right track.

Sekou Smith, NBA.com: Righteous. Locker room leadership has been a casualty of the current hoops culture, where guys are always trying to keep the peace and avoid internal conflict at all costs. Listen, a little creative friction in a group dynamic can be healthy, if everyone involved is mature enough to handle the truth. I don’t have a problem with what Butler said, where and when he said it and with him refusing to back down after his words created negative headlines. The Bulls need a leader. They need someone to step into the void and speak on what ails them. Who better than their best player and driving force?

Ian Thomsen, NBA.com: … to be commended and encouraged. He isn’t happy to have just surpassed expectations on his way to earning a big contract. Butler wants everything — just so long as he understands the responsibility of backing up his words with actions, whether on the court or in the locker room with his teammates.

Lang Whitaker, NBA.com’s All Ball blog: Misguided? Admirable? Necessary? The thing is, all of those answers may have a bit of truth in them, at least to some degree. Clearly, someone on that team needs to take the lead, as right now they seem to be in a downward spiral that just won’t end. The season is still on the early side, sure, and the Bulls are still four games over .500, but they have the pieces and the defensive ability to be so much more, not a team that loses home games to the Brooklyn Nets. Maybe Jimmy Butler is the man that can lead them to where they need to be.

[coldfish]

Well, let's think about this.
- KC already sat on a story that put the Bulls in a bad light. I have little doubt that you are correct that he probably had some or all of this information available before Jimmy went off. That said, KC has given the indication that he doesn't say anything negative about someone on the Bulls without bouncing it off someone pretty high up.
- Someone was pointing out that Funk was being exceptionally negative towards Butler. King trashed Butler in an interview. Same stuff as last year with Thibs. Whomever it is that leaked information is high up enough in the organization that he can direct Funk, King and KC
- The Bulls front office, specifically Gar but others too, do not like middle management types talking negatively to the media or even just not being on script. The war between upper management and Thibs was awful last year and it claimed Adams before that. If it isn't Gar that is doing or approving the leaking, that person has some guts because they clearly could get fired for it. Don't forget the report of the assistant coach being worried his office was bugged.
- A person associated with this website once told me that Gar Forman himself contacted him regarding things he had written elsewhere to correct some things. Gar personally monitors media information.

So, yeah, I can't completely dismiss your logic but the past history points to Gar himself as the guy who called KC and either green lighted the information KC already had or he gave it to KC.

I understand everything you're saying. They're valid points, but I guess I can't get past the logic of what Gar has to gain here by leaking stuff to Johnson.

If he's trying to protect Hoiberg by insinuating Butler is being a problem child, it doesn't make Fred look great after 25 games if his best player is cussing everyone out.

Similarly, alienating your best player, who you just signed to a 5 yr / 94m deal, by dropping information, seems counter productive.

I can buy them selling stories to the media when it came to Tom Thibodeau given the relationship was so bad, but before this outburst from Butler, we had no information at all suggesting there was tension between Gar and Butler for him to do so.

I don't know, perhaps I'm being naive here, but I don't see the benefit of Gar going to Johnson and giving him this info that would have the entire national media speculating about his team, the roster he's constructed, he's decision to fire Tom / hire Fred etc.

Well, to be quite simple, he doesn't have anything to gain in the long term. That said, you are presuming logic here. I am just going by past practice with Gar and putting the pieces together.

Beyond that, I have met people like him in the corporate world many times. Its a personality type or perhaps a career model. For whatever reason, it often works very well. If anyone wants to accuse me of bias, you can do it here. I have never liked Gar from the first time I heard him speak and started referring to him as Baghdad Bob for his ability to lie to people with a straight face. I assume Gar is one of these corporate backstabbers that I have encountered. Quite frankly, nothing that has happened regarding Gar in the past 5 years has surprised me as a result of this. His personality is almost a cliche.

Regardless, using back channels to spread negative information about those within the organization that disagree with you is one of the founding principles of this personality type. This personality type usually does this despite negative long term consequences for themselves because the primary focus is short term.

[Stratmaster]

Sure, it just happens to be the same time Thibs was brought aboard to coach. You know, the same coach who got this team into the 2nd round with a minimum vet leading the way(Nate) while Rose refused to come back even though he said he was physically fine. Next season the season was "lost" again yet Thibs was able to resurrect DJ's career after being released by Toronto, the FO even traded away Deng during that time and still the team made the playoffs.

No argument from me about Thibs. It was time to go but he had a bad ass run.

The reason it was time to run is pretty much the FO made him a sitting duck with everyone knowing he was going to be fired so some "didn't have to listen" and of course the FO putting some of the player's wanting it easier in front of hard work(which it takes to be a champion). Now Chicago has a different coach and basically getting the same damn effort from the players so maybe.... just maybe this was some of the players? I personally like systems better then hoping to get good talent and trying to figure out how to make them work(which some coaches are very good at).

It'll be very interesting to see which job that's available that Thibs will take. It would be interesting if he'd be interested in NO now that A.Davis signed that long deal, Gentry's contract was quite small and may be worth eating to bring in someone like Thibs to go along with Davis.

We have different opinions. My take on Thibs...great coach. Huge ass. Players didn't like him. Boss didn't like him. Had to go.

[AirP.]

We have different opinions. My take on Thibs...great coach. Huge ass. Players didn't like him. Boss didn't like him. Had to go.

Sure, my take... tough coach, asked his players to work hard so the games would be easier and with that, they won more games then expected for their situations during the seasons and SOME players didn't like him some did.

[Stratmaster]

Not sure if posted prior, but Wilbon speaks...at about 6 min mark
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=14426769

Another person backing up Jimmy, kind of went off on Fred, wow.

"Another"? Who were the first ones?

[BullsGate]

John Paxson and Gar Forman giving Jimmy Butler that work. Shady mofos....

Report: Jimmy Butler was ready for Bulls to fire Tom Thibodeau

I can’t stress this enough. In talking to players, in talking to people within the organization…

The relationship was broken. It was gone, and I’ve been told repeatedly – even recently, Tim – that Jimmy was one of those guys who was like, “Hey, you know what? I’m done with this I’m done with this.”

And I think they have a nice relationship, Tom and Jimmy, now after some time has passed.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2015/12/29/report-jimmy-butler-was-ready-for-bulls-to-fire-tom-thibodeau/

[NeckOfOladipo]

Not sure if posted prior, but Wilbon speaks...at about 6 min mark
http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=14426769

Another person backing up Jimmy, kind of went off on Fred, wow.

The question is not whether Jimmy was right or not. It's whether he used the proper forum. And he absolutely did not use the proper forum.

You don't think he made the right call, do you?

Why wouldn't Jimmy want to make sure he can actually back up his thinly-veiled sh*t talk on a regular basis (without the team suffering as a result) before he opened his mouth?

Wilbon is also another one of those guys that people just LOVE when his opinion matches theirs, and hate most of the rest of the time. The guys is generally a moron/talking head... basically a toned down First Take

[musiqsoulchild]

John Paxson and Gar Forman giving Jimmy Butler that work. Shady mofos....

Report: Jimmy Butler was ready for Bulls to fire Tom Thibodeau

I can’t stress this enough. In talking to players, in talking to people within the organization…

The relationship was broken. It was gone, and I’ve been told repeatedly – even recently, Tim – that Jimmy was one of those guys who was like, “Hey, you know what? I’m done with this I’m done with this.”

And I think they have a nice relationship, Tom and Jimmy, now after some time has passed.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2015/12/29/report-jimmy-butler-was-ready-for-bulls-to-fire-tom-thibodeau/

Nick Friedell and Dan Feldman are also in the FO's backpocket now?

Cool.

[The Evidence]

"And I think they have a nice relationship, Tom and Jimmy, now after some time has passed."

May 28, 2015
Thibs Fired

June 26, 2015



So Jimmy hates Thibs and then is back to being BFF with him under a month after Thibs got fired?

Does not compute. Smells like the FODF at work.

[Red Larrivee]

"And I think they have a nice relationship, Tom and Jimmy, now after some time has passed."

May 28, 2015
Thibs Fired

June 26, 2015



So Jimmy hates Thibs and then is back to being BFF with him under a month after Thibs got fired?

Does not compute. Smells like the FODF at work.

It's easy to be acquaintances with someone when it no longer has anything to do with your job.

[TyrusRose2425]

John Paxson and Gar Forman giving Jimmy Butler that work. Shady mofos....

Report: Jimmy Butler was ready for Bulls to fire Tom Thibodeau

I can’t stress this enough. In talking to players, in talking to people within the organization…

The relationship was broken. It was gone, and I’ve been told repeatedly – even recently, Tim – that Jimmy was one of those guys who was like, “Hey, you know what? I’m done with this I’m done with this.”

And I think they have a nice relationship, Tom and Jimmy, now after some time has passed.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2015/12/29/report-jimmy-butler-was-ready-for-bulls-to-fire-tom-thibodeau/

Nick Friedell and Dan Feldman are also in the FO's backpocket now?

Cool.

It's true though, Jimmy did want Thibs out, as did Rose and Noah.

[musiqsoulchild]

John Paxson and Gar Forman giving Jimmy Butler that work. Shady mofos....

Report: Jimmy Butler was ready for Bulls to fire Tom Thibodeau

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2015/12/29/report-jimmy-butler-was-ready-for-bulls-to-fire-tom-thibodeau/

Nick Friedell and Dan Feldman are also in the FO's backpocket now?

Cool.

It's true though, Jimmy did want Thibs out, as did Rose and Noah.

I am good with that man....I am just not good with Bulls Gate's statement which I bolded above.

I know Noah and Rose ( 2 players by the way who worked at LA Athletics and with Jen Swanson) and Jimmy Butler ( our minutes warrior) were not happy with Thibs.

[bulliedog8]

It's true though, Jimmy did want Thibs out, as did Rose and Noah.

Was gonna say, that report isnt even new news. You said that over the summer.

[bennjuiced34]

NBA.com Blog staff quite a bit more positive on welcoming Jimmy as our new overlord, than Friedell:

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2015/12/23/blogtable-butlers-desire-to-lead-is-__/

> Jimmy Butler’s desire to become the leader of the Chicago Bulls is ___.

David Aldridge, NBA.com: Understandable, but a little premature. He had a great season last year, but Chicago still has a lot of guys with pelts whose opinions should be heeded first: Noah and Gasol come to mind. And while Derrick Rose‘s game has deteriorated, and while he’s not the most vocal guy, he still has to have some sway in the locker room. It will be Butler’s team very soon, but a max contract does not automatically make you the team spokesman.

Steve Aschburner, NBA.com: Understandable, for two reasons. One: Everything Butler has achieved in basketball, he has identified and seized. Having reached All-Star/max-contract status, it seems only logical he would reach next for something intangible and team-focused. Two: Chicago’s roster has a leadership void. Derrick Rose‘s personality meant he would only be a leader-by-example in the best of times, and Rose’s play is a nightly reminder that these aren’t his best of times. Pau Gasol is too centered and mature, maybe, to bring the histrionics that sometimes are required of locker-room leaders. Joakim Noah has been the Bulls’ heart but his role has been diminished, coming off the bench. Unfortunately for the Bulls and Butler, grabbing at leadership rarely works. At its best, it gets bestowed upon someone by ready and willing followers. That hasn’t happened with Butler and this bunch, and it remains to be seen whether it will.

Fran Blinebury, NBA.com: Admirable. But if you have to say it, you’re not actually getting it done.

Scott Howard-Cooper, NBA.com: Admirable. Great. All the positive adjectives. How could there be something wrong with wanting that role? He’s got the credibility on the court to back it up. That doesn’t mean there won’t be some rough moments and it doesn’t mean he has to be the leader, as opposed to one of them. The players will decide whether he is worth following, but trying to assert himself in that job is fine.

Shaun Powell, NBA.com: Ambitious? Look, I like the kid. He’s come a long way, and he’s the best player on the Bulls and perhaps Top 20 in the game. But leadership is new to him; he even admitted as much. Eventually I think he’ll learn how and when to criticize and what buttons to push. He’s going about it clumsy now, but he’s the future of the Bulls and he’ll figure it out.

John Schuhmann, NBA.com: … off to a rough start. The Bulls’ 15-11 record actually belies how mediocre they’ve been. Fred Hoiberg was supposed to improve the offense, but no team has regressed more on that end of the floor. So it’s easy to understand Butler’s frustration. But calling out your coach after a game, when you have other veteran leader types in the locker room, might not be a good look. And Monday’s loss to Brooklyn is a good indication that what he said didn’t exactly galvanize his team and get them on the right track.

Sekou Smith, NBA.com: Righteous. Locker room leadership has been a casualty of the current hoops culture, where guys are always trying to keep the peace and avoid internal conflict at all costs. Listen, a little creative friction in a group dynamic can be healthy, if everyone involved is mature enough to handle the truth. I don’t have a problem with what Butler said, where and when he said it and with him refusing to back down after his words created negative headlines. The Bulls need a leader. They need someone to step into the void and speak on what ails them. Who better than their best player and driving force?

Ian Thomsen, NBA.com: … to be commended and encouraged. He isn’t happy to have just surpassed expectations on his way to earning a big contract. Butler wants everything — just so long as he understands the responsibility of backing up his words with actions, whether on the court or in the locker room with his teammates.

Lang Whitaker, NBA.com’s All Ball blog: Misguided? Admirable? Necessary? The thing is, all of those answers may have a bit of truth in them, at least to some degree. Clearly, someone on that team needs to take the lead, as right now they seem to be in a downward spiral that just won’t end. The season is still on the early side, sure, and the Bulls are still four games over .500, but they have the pieces and the defensive ability to be so much more, not a team that loses home games to the Brooklyn Nets. Maybe Jimmy Butler is the man that can lead them to where they need to be.

Here's the thing though, what Jimmy did was self serving. When you call out people to the media, you make it about yourself. That's not leadership nor does it galvanize a team.

I have no problem with guys speaking up and being honest, but that's not the issue here.

Leadership is earned. It comes naturally. By all means, I want Jimmy as a vocal leader on this team, but in rocking the boat like he did, he made it about himself and people don't respond to the stuff very well. Then, you see him with a two straight lack luster efforts and it makes you question what he's trying to accomplish.

If you're going to call names, the target on your back gets really big and you better be prepared to bring it every night. Against Dallas and Toronto, I thought he looked disinterested and disengaged.

The issue isn't Hoiberg. The issue is the players and their inconsistent effort, Jimmy included.

What Jimmy did and how he did it was wrong. Hopefully he learns from it and grows.

Sent from my LG-H811 using Tapatalk

[reggieandtfe]

Very media-ocre player at best.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ice Man]

It's true though, Jimmy did want Thibs out, as did Rose and Noah.

Link? I don't recall anything more than guesswork on this topic.