Tribune: Thibodeau stresses players should play if .....

[babblin-on]

I just wanted to repost this because it is being disregarded in the last couple of pages of posts. Rose had what appears to be the SAME injury last year. He sat one game, played the next and never had a recurrence. I think this is a huge part of why everyone (player, coach, doctors) all decided that he would be able to play. This is not rocket science. There is medical history that has proven successful in this particular ailment with this particular patient. Seems reasonable to follow the same protocol. And you know what, they also closely monitored the situation and pulled him/limited his minutes as they saw his actual condition. I don't think there is anything to talk about here other than seeing in hindsight that they probably could have won without him even suiting up. We did not know that would be the case and if you are trying to get a #1 seed, you can't take that risk - I don't care who the opponent is!

Actually, no it is not the same, because the one game he sat last year was because of the stiff neck. So he didn't have to sit last year because of the back spasms. This year it flared up against Milwaukee, then even after treatment he was unable to finish the next game, and then it was bothering him again in New Orleans. And it is still tight today: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ba ... 9863.story

So yeah, again, not the same because if it was, we'd have heard of it Saturday and never again.

I'm really not understanding the opposition to the idea of resting a player who has an injury that is treated in part by rest:

Treatment

As soon as possible after the injury, the patient may be treated with rest, ice and compression.

http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/Patients/He ... Spasm.aspx

[scoutshonor]

Good post scoutshonor!

It's still amazing that people don't understand the matter: healthy or not healthy.
The most of us have seen Rose in NO...and did he really looked healthy? No he didn't!

So, why all the risk to make it more worse?

Or at least: Why did he start? Why not coming from the bench when the game would have been close?

The point is you don't even know the answer to any of your own questions. And neither do I? Do you know why? We aren't sports physicians with direct access to Derrick Rose and Luol Deng's bodies.

we DO know that luol dengs body is frickin brittle...dude has a 9'1" standing reach...at Sf he is 2nd only to Durant in that category, by and inch...and...well it helps to make him an elite defender, good rebounder, and an all star this...but also makes him injury prone. so less minutes for Luol would mean less opportunity for freak injuries. Korver, Brewer, and Butler are behind Luol so we are beyond adequate. No Luol for the playoffs equal no championship for sure...Luol is THAt important to the team.

Boozer same...but Boozer is getting more rest than Luol this year despite not having as good of back ups as Lu does.

Rip is 34 and he needs his minute regulated...maybe 20 mpg for a week or 2 when he comes back then 25 mpg after that and Rip has essentially the same (really good) back ups.

As for Rose...he can handle 38 (plus) minutes and is not injury prone...but the way he attacks the basket, I would personally regulate Rose's minutes to about 35 and also put him in position to play less hero ball.

No rose? we pretty much are a 45 win team.

No deng? 60 win team but cant beat Miami n likely not Boston either.

No Rip? 60 wins and likely cant beat Miami.

To me its very important those 3 are as close to 100% at playoffs as possible.

[LVBrian]

Lol at Boston. The Celtics are probably the 6th best team in the east.

[khufure]

love it.. hand wringing over everything in chicago.

[scoutshonor]

Lol at Boston. The Celtics are probably the 6th best team in the east.

if we do not have Deng who defends Pierce as well as anyone I've ever seen, you are telling me that you like our chances agasint a healthy Boston team? With no Deng? I would put money on Boston in 6 or 7.

[BeKuK]

The point is you don't even know the answer to any of your own questions. And neither do I? Do you know why? We aren't sports physicians with direct access to Derrick Rose and Luol Deng's bodies.

I'll respond a bit later Duck...still at work.

[DuckIII]

we DO know that luol dengs body is frickin brittle...dude has a 9'1" standing reach...at Sf he is 2nd only to Durant in that category, by and inch...and...well it helps to make him an elite defender, good rebounder, and an all star this...but also makes him injury prone. so less minutes for Luol would mean less opportunity for freak injuries.

You simply can't look at it that way. Deng played massive minutes last year with not problems. Wear and tear isn't the issue. This year he suffered a freak injury, and it wasn't in the final 2 minutes of a blowout. Its the type of thing that can happen at any time in any game. You have to use him how you are going to use him.

Boozer same...but Boozer is getting more rest than Luol this year despite not having as good of back ups as Lu does.

Not that it matters, but Boozer has arguably the best back up on the entire team, who is one of the absolute best back up 4s in the entire NBA.

Rip is 34 and he needs his minute regulated...maybe 20 mpg for a week or 2 when he comes back then 25 mpg after that and Rip has essentially the same (really good) back ups.

Rip is the one player - the only player - that puts me in agreement with the anti-minutes crowd.

As for Rose...he can handle 38 (plus) minutes and is not injury prone...but the way he attacks the basket, I would personally regulate Rose's minutes to about 35 and also put him in position to play less hero ball.

That's just weak. He's an elite, franchise player. And by that standard, his minutes are actually comparatively light. He's 25th in the NBA in mpg. Andrea freaking Bargnani plays more mpg than Rose.

[LVBrian]

Lol at Boston. The Celtics are probably the 6th best team in the east.

if we do not have Deng who defends Pierce as well as anyone I've ever seen, you are telling me that you like our chances agasint a healthy Boston team? With no Deng? I would put money on Boston in 6 or 7.

I'd take the Bulls. The point was there are better teams to worry about.

[northbrookrich]

I just wanted to repost this because it is being disregarded in the last couple of pages of posts. Rose had what appears to be the SAME injury last year. He sat one game, played the next and never had a recurrence. I think this is a huge part of why everyone (player, coach, doctors) all decided that he would be able to play. This is not rocket science. There is medical history that has proven successful in this particular ailment with this particular patient. Seems reasonable to follow the same protocol. And you know what, they also closely monitored the situation and pulled him/limited his minutes as they saw his actual condition. I don't think there is anything to talk about here other than seeing in hindsight that they probably could have won without him even suiting up. We did not know that would be the case and if you are trying to get a #1 seed, you can't take that risk - I don't care who the opponent is!

Actually, no it is not the same, because the one game he sat last year was because of the stiff neck. So he didn't have to sit last year because of the back spasms. This year it flared up against Milwaukee, then even after treatment he was unable to finish the next game, and then it was bothering him again in New Orleans. And it is still tight today: http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/ba ... 9863.story

So yeah, again, not the same because if it was, we'd have heard of it Saturday and never again.

I'm really not understanding the opposition to the idea of resting a player who has an injury that is treated in part by rest:

Treatment

As soon as possible after the injury, the patient may be treated with rest, ice and compression.

http://www.cedars-sinai.edu/Patients/He ... Spasm.aspx

Did you read the article? The one I posted? Thibs clearly said that rose had this same problem last year. Perhaps Rose did not actually miss a game. Or perhaps, the neck thing was mis-reported and was really this same back issue. Are you saying Thibs is lying?

Regardless, just because you posted a link to a medical website you think that is a credible source? Or, that it is more credible than the doctors that actually examined him? Then the player himself? Then the coaches that work with him? Come on now! Get over yourself. Sure, teams and doctors make mistakes. But, you really think that I should go by what you say? You aren’t even a doctor. And, even if you were, you haven’t examined the patient. You are diagnosing the amount of rest needed by reading a couple of blurbs in the press? Really?

And, if the premise is that he shouldn’t be playing because he is in pain, then you should really be saying that they should rest Rose until the playoffs because of his toe. Or maybe, until next year when the toe has fully healed. Right? He has a long career ahead of him, why risk a career ending injury this year? Right? You need to be consistent here. The doctors have cleared him regardless of the fact that his toe is not completely healed and they had cleared him regardless of some tightness in his back. Are they right on the toe and wrong on the back?

[BuffaloBull]

I'll just add one thing, at that is that we (from the outside) are not able to capture all the data, so it creates the impression that these teams are making a ton of mistakes.

Sometimes they get it wrong, like with Luol's leg. But the majority of the time, guys get treated, come back healthy, and play like normal.

Those times don't get noticed by us. What does get noticed is the bad times, and that brings out the doctor in everyone.

But if you add up all the times coaches and personel have had to make the call on whether a guy plays or not, it becomes a much bigger question.

Just take Taj. His rookie year, he had plantar faciitus pretty bad. Played through it almost every night.

His play helped us to make it to the playoffs that year. If the doctors don't trust him, want him to shut it down for two, three weeks, then the Bulls probably don't make the playoffs that year.

Same thing this year. Taj and Noah both got ankle injuries on the same game. Noah missed a game, Taj missed about a week. Maybe Noah should have missed more, just to be safe? But he didn't, and he's been fine. But Thibs and the staff get no credit for that from many here.

Yes, in retrospect, Rip should have been held out longer. But it's not always easy, especially with groin injuries and the like, to know when you are just 90% and when you are truly 100%. And that's why it always has to be on the players, cause they're the only ones who truly know how they are feeling. The coach can only go by that and take guys by their word. Occasionally, maybe you sit somebody down and save them from themselves, but that's the exception, not the rule.

[kyrv]

I'll just add one thing, at that is that we (from the outside) are not able to capture all the data, so it creates the impression that these teams are making a ton of mistakes.

Sometimes they get it wrong, like with Luol's leg. But the majority of the time, guys get treated, come back healthy, and play like normal.

Those times don't get noticed by us. What does get noticed is the bad times, and that brings out the doctor in everyone.

But if you add up all the times coaches and personel have had to make the call on whether a guy plays or not, it becomes a much bigger question.

Just take Taj. His rookie year, he had plantar faciitus pretty bad. Played through it almost every night.

His play helped us to make it to the playoffs that year. If the doctors don't trust him, want him to shut it down for two, three weeks, then the Bulls probably don't make the playoffs that year.

Same thing this year. Taj and Noah both got ankle injuries on the same game. Noah missed a game, Taj missed about a week. Maybe Noah should have missed more, just to be safe? But he didn't, and he's been fine. But Thibs and the staff get no credit for that from many here.

Yes, in retrospect, Rip should have been held out longer. But it's not always easy, especially with groin injuries and the like, to know when you are just 90% and when you are truly 100%. And that's why it always has to be on the players, cause they're the only ones who truly know how they are feeling. The coach can only go by that and take guys by their word. Occasionally, maybe you sit somebody down and save them from themselves, but that's the exception, not the rule.

I agree. A while back someone posted that something like this happens every year and turns out the only previous example was the one Deng injury.

I'm one that's not trying to pretend to make the decisions, just hoping they will use common sense and good practices. Nick says Rose's back is still sore. What the ??

[fleet]

Morrissey

Tom Thibodeau must weigh Derrick Rose’s health vs. short-term gain

Getting a high seed is always a goal, but getting to the playoffs healthy and relatively rested should be the goal this season. The Bulls expended a lot of energy accumulating the most victories in the league last season, then looked worn down in the conference finals against Miami.

At 22-6, they have the best record in the East, but will there be a reckoning? Are they going to get to the postseason and run into teams that have paced themselves better?

I’ve already said that Rose, whose drives to the hoops are wonderfully, frighteningly reckless, is a bad injury waiting to happen. But better that than death by a thousand back spasms. It’s Thibodeau’s job to save Rose from himself.

After Rose had played only 11 minutes the previous game because of his aching back, the smart thing would’ve been to rest him in New Orleans.

There was no compelling reason for him to play against the Hornets. There’s no compelling anything about the Hornets.

But now that the injuries have piled up, most people know the solution: rest.

It’s impossible to picture Rose agreeing to sit for a prolonged period. He’s not built like that. He wants to play at all costs.

It’s up to Thibodeau to decide what cost is too much. That’s his responsibility as a coach. He needs to weigh Rose’s health against any short-term gain of victories. And it’s not just Rose. It’s Luol Deng. It’s Joakim Noah. It’s everybody.

[GetBuLLish]

Bulls coach Tom Thibodeau said he remembered Rose dealing with back problems last season.

"He had it one time last year and it was similar. It was one game, then the rest, then he was fine after that," Thibodeau said. "And never had it again. But I guess he's had this since high school. I think he knows how to deal with it pretty effectively.

This was in an article yesterday - http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/ ... ns-hornets

So, the decision to play him was not only based on clearance from Thibs, Rose and the doctors/trainers, but it was also based on an apparent similar injury last year that went away after one game. They may need to re-evaluate the conclusion, but prior to yesterday's game it would seem that they could reasonably expect that it was a one game thing that would be gone for the NO game.

Well then maybe some of us in the Rest Rose camp are right, then? Because the back pain began in Milwaukee, knocked him out of the game in NJ, limited him in NO, and is still a problem 6 days later.

And it really doesn't take much retrospection to have come to this conclusion. We knew that his back was still stiff in warmups in NJ. We knew it was still stiff in warmups in NO. And now we know it's still stiff prior to this Charlotte game. It doesn't take an incredible leap of faith to conclude that rest might be the best option.

Again, his back was stiff against Milwaukee. Six days later and his back is still acting up. How is this not irrefutable evidence that Rose should have rested against NO?

[DuckIII]

That entire article is one big long opinion.

[kyrv]

There was no compelling reason for him to play against the Hornets.

I don't think this is a fair phrasing at all. Basketball is his job. If he's healthy and can play, there's no compelling reason to rest him. This isn't the final game of the season. And if he's just assigning road wins, he should know better.

The author might know more about the medical condition but they should share that. Just claiming he shouldn't play, we can do that here. Doesn't make any more sense.

However if his back is still stiff, I have to wonder, what's going on.

[fleet]

That entire article is one big long opinion.

weird though. Its as if I was in Morrissey's head.

don't like that one? How about dougthonus. More at link:

Bulls pointlessly push Rose into action against the D-League caliber Hornets in lopsided win

Earth to coaching staff, this game was out of reach before it began. The fully healthy Hornets would lose 9 out of 10 to this Bulls team without Rose and this Hornets team missing their two best players would probably have lost to the Bulls if the whole starting lineup was out.

So Derrick Rose says his back is still tight, and yet we're still throwing him out there, albeit for only 22 minutes where he clearly didn't push himself. Smarten up people, know when you can get a game while resting key guys and sit them out.

For the love of God, rest Rose next game

With the Bulls going into face a surging Boston team [9-1 in their last 10] in Boston, it'd behoove the Bulls to make sure Rose is ready to play bigger minutes at a higher intensity level that game. Boston will no doubt be looking to get some revenge on Chicago for their loss earlier this season and prove that they have something in the tank still.

The Bulls game on Friday against the Bobcats is another snoozer against a team that has no chance of beating Chicago even without Derrick Rose. Take the opportunity to sit Rose down for a game and give his back three full days to rest up for a game that actually means something.

[BuffaloBull]

That entire article is one big long opinion.

weird though. Its as if I was in Morrissey's head.

don't like that one? How about dougthonus. More at link:

Bulls pointlessly push Rose into action against the D-League caliber Hornets in lopsided win

Earth to coaching staff, this game was out of reach before it began. The fully healthy Hornets would lose 9 out of 10 to this Bulls team without Rose and this Hornets team missing their two best players would probably have lost to the Bulls if the whole starting lineup was out.

So Derrick Rose says his back is still tight, and yet we're still throwing him out there, albeit for only 22 minutes where he clearly didn't push himself. Smarten up people, know when you can get a game while resting key guys and sit them out.

For the love of God, rest Rose next game

With the Bulls going into face a surging Boston team [9-1 in their last 10] in Boston, it'd behoove the Bulls to make sure Rose is ready to play bigger minutes at a higher intensity level that game. Boston will no doubt be looking to get some revenge on Chicago for their loss earlier this season and prove that they have something in the tank still.

The Bulls game on Friday against the Bobcats is another snoozer against a team that has no chance of beating Chicago even without Derrick Rose. Take the opportunity to sit Rose down for a game and give his back three full days to rest up for a game that actually means something.

With all respect to Doug (who is a great American hero), I think that kind of thinking, basically assuming you will beat a bad team and allowing yourself to believe that, is the exact opposite of Thib's mindset.

Either you take it one game at a time, or you don't. Thibs lives that.

So you prepare for the Charlotte Bobcats, and have the same expectations for performance and execution that you would against the Miami Heat. And I think that's right. Because even the stinker teams in this league have talent that is capable of beating you on a given night if you don't execute at a high level. OKC lost to the Kings last night.

Yes, over the course of a long season, and at the end of blowouts, both winning and losing, you make accommodations to reality. But the iron will of this current Bulls team is forged on the idea that no matter what, they believe they can come back, if they play the way they want to play. And that mindset isn't a given. It's something that's earned in the way you approach the game.

[fleet]

With all respect to Doug (who is a great American hero), I think that kind of thinking, basically assuming you will beat a bad team and allowing yourself to believe that, is the exact opposite of Thib's mindset.

Either you take it one game at a time, or you don't. Thibs lives that.

So you prepare for the Charlotte Bobcats, and have the same expectations for performance and execution that you would against the Miami Heat. And I think that's right. Because even the stinker teams in this league have talent that is capable of beating you on a given night if you don't execute at a high level. OKC lost to the Kings last night.

Yes, over the course of a long season, and at the end of blowouts, both winning and losing, you make accommodations to reality. But the iron will of this current Bulls team is forged on the idea that no matter what, they believe they can come back, if they play the way they want to play. And that mindset isn't a given. It's something that's earned in the way you approach the game.

I don't see any contradiction between anything you said, and the coach counseling a player to consider taking some time off when he is having physical problems.

[BeKuK]

Andrea freaking Bargnani plays more mpg than Rose.

Yeah, and maybe too much for Andrea "freaking" Bargnani : http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... ained_Calf

Man, ...give Bargnani Derricks speed and all his bones will have a nice fracture in 5 minutes!!! What a comparison.....

The point is you don't even know the answer to any of your own questions. And neither do I? Do you know why? We aren't sports physicians with direct access to Derrick Rose and Luol Deng's bodies.

I don't know what you are trying to do with things like: The point is you don't even know the answer to any of your own questions.


Look, I've played the game over 13 years....unforunately never came after two hand surgeries. Now I've been a coach almost the last 7 years. And HEYYY I really have a coaching license....B.....but I'm sure you don't know what it is...and it's nothing worth you. But it's not the matter, right now!!!

So, I think I know what a player think and how he feels....and I know HOW A COACH should handle a player.

Just to make it clear: We are talking about the season 2011/12...not last season...not last decade...or last century...right!?!?

EDIT: And we are not talking about healthy guys......!!!!!!!

The current season which is 66 games long in 4 months...right....do you agree with me that this season is pretty tough. Oh yes, feel free to agree.


I will ask you one thing; Why is it wrong to rest a player when his back hurts? Ok, let him play in NO...but every reasonably Coach might have seen that Derrick wasn't really healthy...! So, what would you do tonight against the Bobcats(as coach)?

[kyrv]

^^ I do agree this season should be looked at differently, which in part is why this is a bigger deal than last season, and probably would be next season.

Thing is, I think as fleet said above, I think there is a place where everyone is happy (well almost everyone), as far as the treatment.

Don't drive them into the ground, don't baby them, but be smart.