Official Trade Thread - Part XXVIII

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

The cynical Wizards fan in me says Ariza was last season's most effective Wizard.

Agree.

CCJ's assertion doesn't mean much when it's out of context. Most effective Wizard because he's playing the smallest role of any of the starters. He had the 10th highest usage rate on the team. He was a pure 3 & D player on the court. We're not going to fall apart from losing him. He was absolutely not our best or most important last season, which is what I think CCJ's out of context claim was meant to construe.

His greatest contribution was the ability to clamp down on some of the leagues most lethal scorers... Carmelo, LeBron, Durant, George.

That will be very hard to replace, especially after a solid playoff run in which he almost certainly earned some respect from officials that will help him going forward.

I am convinced that we'll score more evenly and consistently. It remains a puzzle how to pick up our crunch time defense.

I'm also absolutely convinced that without Wall, Ariza's offensive effectiveness will regress considerably.

[montestewart]

Ariza (and Gortat) were the most effective players last year, but if role players are the best players on a team, that team probably isn't going far. Ariza had a career year offensively, but he seems to have acquired a 3-point touch, and Harden will probably get him some open looks. When he first went to Houston (and later NO) he was a bigger option than he should have been, and it showed. Prior to that, in Orlando and LA, he showed he can play efficiently within the limits of his offensive game, and hopefully he will continue to try and play like that, with or without Wall. He doesn't have to shoot like he did last year to continue to be effective.

It'll be hard, maybe impossible, to replace his defense, but I am really hoping that Porter and/or Rice make strides in that department.

[payitforward]

The cynical Wizards fan in me says Ariza was last season's most effective Wizard.

Agree.

CCJ's assertion doesn't mean much when it's out of context. Most effective Wizard because he's playing the smallest role of any of the starters. He had the 10th highest usage rate on the team. He was a pure 3 & D player on the court. We're not going to fall apart from losing him. He was absolutely not our best or most important last season, which is what I think CCJ's out of context claim was meant to construe.

Sorry, nonsense. Last season Ariza took 11.1 shots a game and turned them into 12.5 points. The whole point is that he was low "usage" and still a very effective scorer. Leave aside being an incredible defender, fouling very little, turning it over rarely, rebounding effectively, etc.

He was our best player by a lot, and he also played 2d most minutes on the team at that high rate.

[hands11]

Hoping Love goes to the Warriors.... He isnt THAT much of an upgrade for them.

Kyrie/Bron/Love is a lot more worrying than a Kyrie/Bron big two.

100% agree.

Do not want a super team forming in Cleveland right as we finally get a legit good team.

And plus I kind of have a soft spot for GS and want to see them truly compete in the West.

Plus the West got very top heavy this summer, feels like SA, OKC, and LAC became the only teams capable of winning the conference. Wouldn't mind seeing a fourth team get into that mix.

Why on Earth did GS drag their feet about including Thompson with Barnes and Lee? Barnes sucks, Lee is in decline, and Thompson has zero chance of ever being close to a 1:1 swap with Love (and he's only like one or two years younger). Thompson should have been on the table immediately. They get a deal done weeks ago and Cleveland is never a threat.

I strongly believe it wouldn't have mattered. Flip was always going to wait to see if LeBron went to CLE first and let the bidding war start.

As for the loss TA and guessing if we will be better. I fully expect them to be better this year. Not a maybe. They will need to ramp up but they should get off to a better start that and recent years. People seem to forget the team had to gel last year. They didn't start like they finished.

Wall and Beal is going to start the year better players. I expect both to take another step defensively.
Defense is a team thing more then an individual thing and PP knows how to play team defense. Sure, come the playoffs you do that man on man stuff to shut down the other team top scorer, but you don't see that as much during the season early on. We have all year to sharpen up the skills of Otto, Temple and Glen to be man defenders. I would guess Temple is the main target to turn into that player for now until someone takes that from him. cough cough Otto Porter. The young man is a TA clone with handles and a mid range off the dribble. Give him a chance to show it.

There isn't going to be one player that replaces exactly what TA did last year. But they added lots of good pieces and they are bringing back lots of good pieces. They will work it out.

I expect this roster to be real tough inside. Teams will have to S4 to spread them out and every team can't do that well. When they do that, Wizards will have to turn to PP and Gooden as S4 and Gooden can even S5.

And lets remember, team have to play both sides of the ball. They want to S4 us, we turn around and pound them in the post and get them in foul trouble. Or we spread them out ourselves and open the lane for Wall.

We have advantages to cause match up problems we well.

[hands11]

Agree.

CCJ's assertion doesn't mean much when it's out of context. Most effective Wizard because he's playing the smallest role of any of the starters. He had the 10th highest usage rate on the team. He was a pure 3 & D player on the court. We're not going to fall apart from losing him. He was absolutely not our best or most important last season, which is what I think CCJ's out of context claim was meant to construe.

Sorry, nonsense. Last season Ariza took 11.1 shots a game and turned them into 12.5 points. The whole point is that he was low "usage" and still a very effective scorer. Leave aside being an incredible defender, fouling very little, turning it over rarely, rebounding effectively, etc.

He was our best player by a lot, and he also played 2d most minutes on the team at that high rate.

He was efficient because he was low usage.

The offense we ran and Wall allowed him to only shoot shots he know he could make. Feet set 3s and eventually a few blow by drives. But only straight line open type stuff. No dribbling left or right.

He didn't create offense. He could hardly dribble if you remember.

As long as a team can carve out that exact same plan for him, he should be able to produce it again. I think Houston should be able to do that. But Wall was amazing at the skip pace to get him those open looks with plenty of time. TA isn't exactly Ray Allen lighting fast on his release. You need to get him the ball like Wall did with plenty of room for his to crank it up.

I wish him well. I wish he was here on a 2 year deal. But we should be fine. Actually, I would have thought more would be excited since they are always about us playing young players over old. Well, now there is a role that needs filled and the player(s) targeted to fill it are younger.

Sure there is a question about if it will happen. You are going from a known to a less known. But Otto is long and build just like TA was. Long arms and all. Otto is a smart young man. And he won't back down. He has that pride motor. He will do battle.

And hey, we get to see him play again tonight.

[deneem4]

CCJ's assertion doesn't mean much when it's out of context. Most effective Wizard because he's playing the smallest role of any of the starters. He had the 10th highest usage rate on the team. He was a pure 3 & D player on the court. We're not going to fall apart from losing him. He was absolutely not our best or most important last season, which is what I think CCJ's out of context claim was meant to construe.

Sorry, nonsense. Last season Ariza took 11.1 shots a game and turned them into 12.5 points. The whole point is that he was low "usage" and still a very effective scorer. Leave aside being an incredible defender, fouling very little, turning it over rarely, rebounding effectively, etc.

He was our best player by a lot, and he also played 2d most minutes on the team at that high rate.

He was efficient because he was low usage.

The offense we ran and Wall allowed him to only shoot shots he know he could make. Feet set 3s and eventually a few blow by drives. But only straight line open type stuff. No dribbling left or right.

He didn't create offense. He could hardly dribble if you remember.

As long as a team can carve out that exact same plan for him, he should be able to produce it again. I think Houston should be able to do that. But Wall was amazing at the skip pace to get him those open looks with plenty of time. TA isn't exactly Ray Allen lighting fast on his release. You need to get him the ball like Wall did with plenty of room for his to crank it up.

I wish him well. I wish he was here on a 2 year deal. But we should be fine. Actually, I would have thought more would be excited since they are always about us playing young players over old. Well, now there is a role that needs filled and the player(s) targeted to fill it are younger.

Sure there is a question about if it will happen. You are going from a known to a less known. But Otto is long and build just like TA was. Long arms and all. Otto is a smart young man. And he won't back down. He has that pride motor. He will do battle.

And hey, we get to see him play again tonight.

This exactly. Wall passing made ariza effective...good corner threes where ariza had time to setup and release

[montestewart]

Wall passing made ariza effective…good corner threes where ariza had time to setup and release

Ariza has been effective in the past, without Wall at point guard. Maybe he won't get as many open threes, but maybe he's learned a little and carries it with him now, wherever he goes.

Didn't someone have a statistical comparison of Ariza as a Wizard with and without Wall? Where did that go? I seem to recall no great change in overall production and efficiency, only a drop in 3P attempts and %. In other words, he was just as productive, but without so many 3 pointers. Can anyone confirm that?

Ariza's a good player, and he'll likely continue to be a good player for a while.

[thinker07]

Another reason why I think the Wiz will be better this year is that Humphries is a better shooter than Booker. Booker shot a high percentage last year but his mid-range shots were almost all uncontested. As he started to make more of those, the other teams still didn't react to cover him -- so he wasn't helping spread the floor as much. Humphries starts with a better reputation as a shooter and will garner more defensive attention from the opposition. This will open other areas of the floor more.

[hands11]

Wall passing made ariza effective…good corner threes where ariza had time to setup and release

Ariza has been effective in the past, without Wall at point guard. Maybe he won't get as many open threes, but maybe he's learned a little and carries it with him now, wherever he goes.

Didn't someone have a statistical comparison of Ariza as a Wizard with and without Wall? Where did that go? I seem to recall no great change in overall production and efficiency, only a drop in 3P attempts and %. In other words, he was just as productive, but without so many 3 pointers. Can anyone confirm that?

Ariza's a good player, and he'll likely continue to be a good player for a while.

Wall
Beal
TA
Nene
Gortat

vs

Beverley
Harden
TA
Terrance Jones
Howard

TA took 5.7 three ball attempts last year in 35 mins.
Chandler Parson took 4.7 attempts from 3 in 37.6 minutes last year.

Parson is a way better offensive players then Travor A. Pasrsons can dribble and shoot off the dribble. Much quicker in driving. Much more advanced skill set on offense. Now who is going to help Harden ? Losing Parsons is huge for Houston. Teams can trap Harden a lot more.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp8BhA8khvI[/youtube]

Trevor A is mostly a feet set shooter. And that had a lot to do with Wall

Here is a career high night for TA. Wall has 16 assists.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQFmz3VIG74[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ciWlWUjj7U[/youtube]

No busting TA. Those are found memories. But Wall is setting him up all over the place. Trevor A offensive skills are nothing like Parsons.

We will see if Houston can set him up. They don't have John Wall. Harden is going to have to play more like a PG then a SG

Trevor made a mistake not sticking with Wizards. Even if it meant signing for only two years. He fit here. He was part of the family. He would have gotten paid again after two years.

[payitforward]

CCJ's assertion doesn't mean much when it's out of context. Most effective Wizard because he's playing the smallest role of any of the starters. He had the 10th highest usage rate on the team. He was a pure 3 & D player on the court. We're not going to fall apart from losing him. He was absolutely not our best or most important last season, which is what I think CCJ's out of context claim was meant to construe.

Sorry, nonsense. Last season Ariza took 11.1 shots a game and turned them into 12.5 points. The whole point is that he was low "usage" and still a very effective scorer. Leave aside being an incredible defender, fouling very little, turning it over rarely, rebounding effectively, etc.

He was our best player by a lot, and he also played 2d most minutes on the team at that high rate.

He was efficient because he was low usage.

The offense we ran and Wall allowed him to only shoot shots he know he could make. Feet set 3s and eventually a few blow by drives. But only straight line open type stuff. No dribbling left or right.

He didn't create offense. He could hardly dribble if you remember.

As long as a team can carve out that exact same plan for him, he should be able to produce it again. I think Houston should be able to do that. But Wall was amazing at the skip pace to get him those open looks with plenty of time. TA isn't exactly Ray Allen lighting fast on his release. You need to get him the ball like Wall did with plenty of room for his to crank it up.

I wish him well. I wish he was here on a 2 year deal. But we should be fine. Actually, I would have thought more would be excited since they are always about us playing young players over old. Well, now there is a role that needs filled and the player(s) targeted to fill it are younger.

Sure there is a question about if it will happen. You are going from a known to a less known. But Otto is long and build just like TA was. Long arms and all. Otto is a smart young man. And he won't back down. He has that pride motor. He will do battle.

And hey, we get to see him play again tonight.

I don't but I will in the morning!

I'll be happy if Otto develops as you suggest. I certainly think he can and should be a terrific player -- why not? given he was in college.

But your point about Ariza is irrelevant Hands -- think about it. A guy fills the stat sheet every night and you *don't* have to run offense for him. Ariza took the 4th most shots per game on the team. And he rarely took bad shots. I.e. it's a *good thing* not bad that a player takes shots he knows he can make (i.e. that he has a good chance to make -- we call those high percentage shots). Players who take shots they don't have a good chance to make lose games for their teams.

Ariza is not a superstar. He's not irreplaceable. I'm not looking for a step back because we lost Ariza. Pierce is a pretty good replacement. He can't play the minutes, but he's still productive, at least he was last year, in the minutes he does play. And we've upgraded in some other places. Not to mention that we acquired Miller and Gooden last year, and they made us a better team than when we were giving the minutes to Maynor and KS! And, of course, we want to create minutes for Porter.

All the same, the *reasons* Ariza was productive are irrelevant -- it's the productivity that wins games, not the reasons!

[payitforward]

Wall passing made ariza effective…good corner threes where ariza had time to setup and release

Ariza has been effective in the past, without Wall at point guard. Maybe he won't get as many open threes, but maybe he's learned a little and carries it with him now, wherever he goes.

Didn't someone have a statistical comparison of Ariza as a Wizard with and without Wall? Where did that go? I seem to recall no great change in overall production and efficiency, only a drop in 3P attempts and %. In other words, he was just as productive, but without so many 3 pointers. Can anyone confirm that?

Ariza's a good player, and he'll likely continue to be a good player for a while.

Wall
Beal
TA
Nene
Gortat

vs

Beverley
Harden
TA
Terrance Jones
Howard

TA took 5.7 three ball attempts last year in 35 mins.
Chandler Parson took 4.7 attempts from 3 in 37.6 minutes last year.

Parson is a way better offensive players then Travor A. Pasrsons can dribble and shoot off the dribble. Much quicker in driving. Much more advanced skill set on offense. Now who is going to help Harden ? Losing Parsons is huge for Houston. Teams can trap Harden a lot more.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp8BhA8khvI[/youtube]

Trevor A is mostly a feet set shooter. And that had a lot to do with Wall

Here is a career high night for TA. Wall has 16 assists.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQFmz3VIG74[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ciWlWUjj7U[/youtube]

No busting TA. Those are found memories. But Wall is setting him up all over the place. Trevor A offensive skills are nothing like Parsons.

We will see if Houston can set him up. They don't have John Wall. Harden is going to have to play more like a PG then a SG

Trevor made a mistake not sticking with Wizards. Even if it meant signing for only two years. He fit here. He was part of the family. He would have gotten paid again after two years.

If you are right, then Houston will post a worse record this year than last. And -- unless you're thinking Pierce will be setting up to take 3's exactly as Trevor did -- why won't we do worse as well? I.e. if a notably efficient weapon is now gone.

I love Parsons! A terrific player, and such a bargain in the draft! But $15m....? Would you have matched Dallas? Not me.

One notable thing -- given people here posting things like "99% of all R2 picks suck" etc. it's kind of funny that Parsons, Gortat, Ariza are all R2 picks!

[gambitx777]

You know I'm just going to be over here on my soapbox, preaching about how we need to make a trade to get Jordan Crawford back!

[80sballboy]

You know I'm just going to be over here on my soapbox, preaching about how we need to make a trade to get Jordan Crawford back!

Good idea, why don't you make a new thread for that!

[dckingsfan]

You know I'm just going to be over here on my soapbox, preaching about how we need to make a trade to get Jordan Crawford back!

Just helping

[dckingsfan]

He was our best player by a lot, and he also played 2d most minutes on the team at that high rate.

Both offensively AND defensively - while still playing a large number of minutes.

[stevemcqueen1]

Agree.

CCJ's assertion doesn't mean much when it's out of context. Most effective Wizard because he's playing the smallest role of any of the starters. He had the 10th highest usage rate on the team. He was a pure 3 & D player on the court. We're not going to fall apart from losing him. He was absolutely not our best or most important last season, which is what I think CCJ's out of context claim was meant to construe.

Sorry, nonsense. Last season Ariza took 11.1 shots a game and turned them into 12.5 points. The whole point is that he was low "usage" and still a very effective scorer. Leave aside being an incredible defender, fouling very little, turning it over rarely, rebounding effectively, etc.

He was our best player by a lot, and he also played 2d most minutes on the team at that high rate.

No he was not our best player. Wall was, by far. You're not acknowledging that Ariza's effectiveness depended on Wall making the plays for him. Wall did all of the heavy lifting. Again, Ariza's role was the most limited of any of our starting players.

[deneem4]

CCJ's assertion doesn't mean much when it's out of context. Most effective Wizard because he's playing the smallest role of any of the starters. He had the 10th highest usage rate on the team. He was a pure 3 & D player on the court. We're not going to fall apart from losing him. He was absolutely not our best or most important last season, which is what I think CCJ's out of context claim was meant to construe.

Sorry, nonsense. Last season Ariza took 11.1 shots a game and turned them into 12.5 points. The whole point is that he was low "usage" and still a very effective scorer. Leave aside being an incredible defender, fouling very little, turning it over rarely, rebounding effectively, etc.

He was our best player by a lot, and he also played 2d most minutes on the team at that high rate.

No he was not our best player. Wall was, by far. You're not acknowledging that Ariza's effectiveness depended on Wall making the plays for him. Wall did all of the heavy lifting. Again, Ariza's role was the most limited of any of our starting players.

Yea the stats don't show how much impact wall and beal had...if beal was out ariza wouldn't get them good looks

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ's assertion doesn't mean much when it's out of context. Most effective Wizard because he's playing the smallest role of any of the starters. He had the 10th highest usage rate on the team. He was a pure 3 & D player on the court. We're not going to fall apart from losing him. He was absolutely not our best or most important last season, which is what I think CCJ's out of context claim was meant to construe.

Sorry, nonsense. Last season Ariza took 11.1 shots a game and turned them into 12.5 points. The whole point is that he was low "usage" and still a very effective scorer. Leave aside being an incredible defender, fouling very little, turning it over rarely, rebounding effectively, etc.

He was our best player by a lot, and he also played 2d most minutes on the team at that high rate.

No he was not our best player. Wall was, by far. You're not acknowledging that Ariza's effectiveness depended on Wall making the plays for him. Wall did all of the heavy lifting. Again, Ariza's role was the most limited of any of our starting players.

I think Wall by far has the highest upside. John does change the game with his speed. Nobody covers more ground faster. Everything revolves around his transition game. He is the straw that stirs the drink. But as talented as he is I do not think he was the best player on the team.

Maybe I am just a critic. But his flat shot hurt the team against Indiana. His terrible half court execution hurt the team. His turnovers because of his pretty weak handle hurt the team. Wall is not a clutch shooter. What he is is a great facilitator. When he is confident and when his three-point shot is falling, then he becomes a devastatingly good player. But because of those weaknesses and his inconsistently focused defense I don't think he's the best.

Trevor Ariza did his job with much more reliability indeed it both hands of the court. Win score per 48 in both regular season and playoffs show Ariza was best. Playoff PER also rated Ariza higher.

No offense to Wall supporters. Perhaps you are right Wall is the all star. He is just 23 years old. When he is on his game he is certainly the best.

The guy who I think is really clutch is Beal. He and Wall are great together because their styles complement each other well.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Ruzious]

When you have a SF who can't create (like Ariza), it means you don't have other options when your creator (like Wall) is being defensed real well. And then you have to use your 20 year old 2 guard (like Beal) out of his comfort zone as a creator. There are team consequences that you don't see in individual productivity numbers when a player's offense is uni dimensional.

[dangermouse]

Thats a huge point. A shot creator like Pierce is going to add that extra punch in our half court offense. Nene and Pierce are both good shot creators and passers at their positions. Maybe limit their minutes playing with Wall, bring them in when the Defense-Run-Gun isnt working. Watching the SL, Porter is built for run and gun style much the same way as Ariza was for us. He is long and rangey, hits the pull up three fairly well, covers a lot of ground fast on the break and is even capable of running the break himself. I was most impressed with his ball handling and decision making. Just hope he brings it in the big boy league.