RealGM Top 100 List #16

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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16 -- MOSES v. DIRK 

Post#161 » by ThaRegul8r » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:33 am

Basketballefan wrote:I have no problem with one choosing Dirk over Karl it is perfectly reasonable, but i think the things i mentioned people do think about subconsciously, my assumptions were not directed at you. I'm not assuming your criteria to be of that i mentioned but it is out there. Again getting bent out of shape because of something a poster said. Get over yourself please.


Had you left it without the bolded, then I would have apologized. However, you then decided to take a shot at the poster rather than the content of the post. That, I will not let go.

You chimed in in the first place to a post directed to me. You said nothing in your post to indicate that your comments were not directed at me, whom the quoted post was directed to. I am not a mind reader. I go by what is written. When I reply to a post, I specifically state that it isn't directed to a particular poster so they... know it isn't directed to them. Because they have no way of knowing that unless I say so. Because they can't read my mind through the computer.

And I wasn't "bent out of shape." Everything I post is done matter-of-factly, in the same manner I speak to people face-to-face. As I said before, people don't need to infer anything, just go by what's there. Don't add anything. The fact that you repeated the same thing you did after saying I took your post too literally hasn't been unnoticed.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#162 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:43 am

Dirk, because he's clearly the best post season player of the three. As great as Karl was in RS, he wasn't nearly as impressive when it really counted.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#163 » by ThaRegul8r » Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:59 am

I need some (Karl) Malone people to address something for me. This has nothing to do with the voting, which is irrelevant to me, but information I need to know for my assessment.

In ElGee's post, “Regular and Post Season -- Superstars vs. Easy/Hard Defenses,” the data he published showed that Malone had the worst efficiency of the players looked at against sub-103 defenses, and also that Malone had a similar drop in both scoring and efficiency against both sub-103 defenses and plus-107 defenses from his regular season performances against both. He said that whether this is due to flaws in Malone or flaws in Utah can’t be determined from the data.

But then I look back to fatal9's breakdown on Malone's scoring from the Highest Peaks Project:

Spoiler:
fatal9 wrote:This would me my assessment of Malone's scoring, I don't think "scoring without Stockton" is as much of an issue as other things...

- Amazing at getting the ball in traffic and either finishing or drawing fouls due to his strength. He had some of the best hands ever, doesn't matter who is throwing him the ball or what system he is in, he will always find a way to score off other players unless he plays on a team with literally zero ball movement.
- His ability to go to the right spots on the floor is a SKILL. The problem is, that sort of scoring can't be relied upon against a good set defense trying to make a stop. It's a good way to tack on the points when the defense lets up or makes mistakes however.
- In an iso situation, pretty much the only shot prime Malone was shooting was a 12-15 foot fallaway over a defender. He could mix it up over the course of a game, give you a little jump hook sometimes, face you up and drive, but 9 times out of 10, if you give him the ball and get out of his way, it's going to be that fallaway. I hate that shot, well not the shot itself but how many times he shot it. That sort of somewhat one dimensional iso-scoring is the reason he couldn't come through as a scorer in the playoffs at the rate you'd expect from someone with his averages. It's why when his jumper is on, he'll look unstoppable, shoot like 15/26 in one game but be 9/24 and 6/19 in the next two while taking the exact same shots. His consistency as an iso-scorer is just not where you'd like it to be.
- Stockton was responsible for a large number of late 80s/early 90s Malone's points. When people exagerrate and say Stockton spoon fed Malone, this is the version they are referring to. Malone became less and less dependent on Stockton as the years rolled by.
- As the 90s went on, his game progressed to being more finesse based (he could still make midrange shots when he was young, but didn't shoot them as often as later on), he also became a better one on one scorer (but again...I hate that fallaway) and with added experience he of course read defenses better and became a really good passer as well (over the shoulder no look pass being his trademark, great and hitting cutters and outlet passing).
- His conditioning was epic, he was probably the best forward ever at beating his man down the floor for an easy fastbreak basket. This again, is something teams can cut down when they adjust for it in the playoffs.
- PnR beast, in his younger days he attacked more off the PnR, in the MVP years he popped for the jumper.
- In general he got more easy baskets than any 25 ppg guy I've consistently seen. Combination of playing with the best PG at delivering the ball, the offensive system Utah ran which creates lots of easy baskets off cuts and backscreens and to Malone's credit, him having a scorer's nose for where to be on the floor. Those easy baskets aren't quite as readily avaliable in the playoffs with better defensive teams so that contributes to decline in his playoff scoring as well.

This is why I don't see Malone's drop off in the playoffs as "choking", but as a drop off that can be naturally expected from him given his skills as a scorer. He was better at scoring on paper than a guy like Duncan...but he was better at things that are more likely to be taken away in the playoffs. That is why he's overrated as a scorer.

kaima wrote:Another quick visual anecdote:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bsuLF0DqzU[/youtube]


Great performance but this shows exactly what people already criticize about Malone's game. Too many jumpers! In a game he was "on", he's going to look amazing, but he didn't mix it up in these years, his iso-scoring is too dependent on them. The thing that bothers me is that I believe he had the talent and body to score in so many more different ways, but he just fell in love with that jumper. It's a non-attacking shot which bails out defenses, it kept him from utilizing all of his skills, it was an inefficient shot against playoff defenses in isolation and it's why he couldn't pace his scoring like truly great scorers who know they can get theirs in a variety of ways whenever they want at any point of the game.

I already know Karl can shoot a jumper for me on command, but your jumper can't be on every game (especially if you're not a pure shooter) so what then can Malone do for me when I need him to score on isos? It's not an efficient shot in isos especially when it's your only real "go to" move. In the game before that one he shot 6/21, in the game after he shot 7/21. Too many jumpers and the result is very erratic iso-scoring where he looks like a world beater one night and hopeless the next night.


Fatal9 said that Malone was good at things that were more likely to be taken away in the playoffs, and thus he didn’t see Malone’s postseason drop off “as ‘choking’, but as a drop off that [could] naturally be expected from him given his skills as a scorer.” That explanation is consistent with ElGee’s findings that Malone had an equally big drop off against both sub-103 (-4.3% TS) and plus-107 defenses (-4.2% TS) in the postseason.

Spoiler:
DavidStern wrote:
fatal9 wrote:- In an iso situation, pretty much the only shot prime Malone was shooting was a 12-15 foot fallaway over a defender. He could mix it up over the course of a game, give you a little jump hook sometimes, face you up and drive, but 9 times out of 10, if you give him the ball and get out of his way, it's going to be that fallaway. I hate that shot, well not the shot itself but how many times he shot it. That sort of somewhat one dimensional iso-scoring is the reason he couldn't come through as a scorer in the playoffs at the rate you'd expect from someone with his averages. It's why when his jumper is on, he'll look unstoppable, shoot like 15/26 in one game but be 9/24 and 6/19 in the next two while taking the exact same shots. His consistency as an iso-scorer is just not where you'd like it to be.

- In general he got more easy baskets than any 25 ppg guy I've consistently seen. Combination of playing with the best PG at delivering the ball, the offensive system Utah ran which creates lots of easy baskets off cuts and backscreens and to Malone's credit, him having a scorer's nose for where to be on the floor. Those easy baskets aren't quite as readily avaliable in the playoffs with better defensive teams so that contributes to decline in his playoff scoring as well.


And that's very big issue here, because Malone's biggest strength was scoring. Unfortunately, many people don't see that, because they are looking on PPG and longevity.


Both of those in combination with ElGee's data that says Dirk didn't really seem to care who was on the other side of the court—along with other arguments that have been presented—helps give Dirk the edge for me. But I'm wondering if a Malone supporter can address the problems fatal9 listed, which is consistent with the quantitative data that's been presented.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#164 » by batmana » Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:29 am

Obviously I took too much time and couldn't vote before the runoff but it's fine because my vote would have most likely gone down to one of those 3 guys.

It is really difficult to single them out here. First of all, I believe Moses peaked the highest but his prime was below his peak. I am very impressed by his Finals trip on an under-.500 team, and he won a title in the most convincing way possible. But I seriously question whether his impact was always as conductive to winning as in those two situations.

Dirk is the other guy who has a title, and it was a hell of a playoff run for him, too. His shortcomings in 2006 and 2007 were exorcised by that title and don't weigh as much as they used to (at least for me). His peak was very consistent and impressive.

Karl Malone is the guy with the best longevity even though all three played for a very long time. Karl couldn't peak above his prime to the point where people are arguing when his prime was. He found most team success in his late 30s and coupled that with 2 MVPs which strongly suggests that that's when he peaked. He had the misfortune of running into Jordan so I can't punish him too much for that. It's his early-career failures in the playoffs that weigh him down a bit.

From what I've written it appears that none of the candidates has a perfect resume so I'll just have to assume we are already beyond that group of players. Realizing how close it is, I would probably take Karl Malone when it's all said and done.

[b]My vote for the No. 16 position goes to Karl Malone.[/b]
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#165 » by FJS » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:09 am

My run off vote it's karl malone. Same reasons that the normal vote.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#166 » by magicmerl » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:43 am

FJS wrote:My run off vote it's karl malone. Same reasons that the normal vote.

You don't need to vote again in the runoff unless you are changing your vote. Although I get why you would, since you fell through the cracks the first time around.

Here's the current tally:

10 Karl Malone – ronnymac2, trex_8063, DHodgkins, FJS, SactoKingsFan, magicmerl, therealbig3, Narigo, colts18, batmana
8 Dirk – Quotatious, ardee, fpliii, penbeast0, john248, RayBan-Sematra, Doctor MJ, Chuck Texas
4 Moses – DannyNoonan1221, JordansBulls, DQuinn1575, basketballefan

A couple of guys are Dirk supporters but not on the list.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#167 » by SactoKingsFan » Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:52 am

magicmerl wrote:
FJS wrote:My run off vote it's karl malone. Same reasons that the normal vote.

You don't need to vote again in the runoff unless you are changing your vote. Although I get why you would, since you fell through the cracks the first time around.

Here's the current tally:

10 Karl Malone – ronnymac2, trex_8063, DHodgkins, FJS, SactoKingsFan, magicmerl, therealbig3, Narigo, colts18, batmana
8 Dirk – Quotatious, ardee, fpliii, penbeast0, john248, RayBan-Sematra, Doctor MJ, Chuck Texas
4 Moses – DannyNoonan1221, JordansBulls, DQuinn1575, basketballefan

A couple of guys are Dirk supporters but not on the list.


I think Narigo voted for Dirk.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#168 » by magicmerl » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:00 am

SactoKingsFan wrote:I think Narigo voted for Dirk.

Thanks. Right you are.

9 Karl Malone – ronnymac2, trex_8063, DHodgkins, FJS, SactoKingsFan, magicmerl, therealbig3, colts18, batmana
9 Dirk – Quotatious, ardee, fpliii, penbeast0, john248, RayBan-Sematra, Doctor MJ, Chuck Texas, Narigo
4 Moses – DannyNoonan1221, JordansBulls, DQuinn1575, basketballefan
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#169 » by Quotatious » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:24 am

magicmerl wrote:9 Karl Malone – ronnymac2, trex_8063, DHodgkins, FJS, SactoKingsFan, magicmerl, therealbig3, colts18, batmana
9 Dirk – Quotatious, ardee, fpliii, penbeast0, john248, RayBan-Sematra, Doctor MJ, Chuck Texas, Narigo
4 Moses – DannyNoonan1221, JordansBulls, DQuinn1575, basketballefan

So, I guess it should really be just a Karl vs Dirk runoff, and now a lot depends on who the Moses voters would vote for.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#170 » by Moonbeam » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:36 am

Looks like I missed the normal vote, which may have gone for David Robinson.

These three make for a good competition. Of the three, I know least about Moses Malone, though I did catch the tail end of his career. His stretch from the late 70s to early 80s seems quite impressive, and his role in leading the 1983 76er team to such a dominant season is another tick in his favor.

Dirk is one of the most incredible offensive players I've ever seen. His skillset is so incredibly diverse and unique for his size, and his elevated play in the playoffs is a particular notch in his favor. He is to Dallas what Robinson and Duncan are to San Antonio - the figure that took a then-moribund franchise and redefined it with consistently strong results.

Karl's biggest edge is his incredible longevity, delivering an amazing number of top-5-worthy seasons and always leading his teams to the playoffs. I agree that focusing on the negatives of his playoff performances sells him short, and I'm glad to see some notice given to his amazing playoff performances.

Ultimately this is between Dirk and Karl Malone for me, with Moses lagging slightly behind. Both Dirk and Karl have had incredible careers, but I'll cast my vote for Dirk Nowitzki here. I feel that Karl generally had better player and coaching talent around him to produce results that are quite difficult to pick apart. It's incredibly close in my mind, and I won't mind at all if Karl gets the nod here. If not, I'll have to think hard about him vs. Robinson (and maybe Barkley) for my next vote.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#171 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:31 am

In a Karl vs Dirk comparison I think it's all about what each voter gives priority to. Malone's RS career, his longevity, his awards, is impressive enough to be considered in the TOP10. There's no discussion he has an edge there over Dirk. On the other hand, Dirk has been a vastly superior scorer and offensive player, to the point Karl looks like Garnett without having the same defensive dominance. To me it should be clearly Dirk, as I consider post season play the difference when arguing TOP10 players.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#172 » by The Infamous1 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 11:37 am

therealbig3 wrote:Vote: Karl Malone

I feel like Moses is in general an overrated player whose actual impact was highly questionable. Dirk imo is the best peak player of the 3, and he does have legit longevity...but Karl Malone's longevity is on another level, and he was still a fantastic player during his prime. From 94-97, there was no question who the best PF in the game was.

Offensively, the only thing he really lacked was elite ISO scoring...which as all of you recall, was the same criticism hurled at KG, and is the same criticism of Robinson. And my personal belief is: the importance of this is vastly overrated. Can K. Malone catch and finish? Yes. Can he shoot? Yes. Can he reliably secure the ball? Yes. Can he read defenses and make good passes? Yes. Can he set good screens? Yes.

If he did do all of those things at an elite level (and he did)...he's already having a large offensive impact from the PF position. On top of that...his ISO scoring ability wasn't ever that bad either, even in the playoffs.


The difference between Karl and Kg is that Garnett is a defensive first player. Karl's major asset is his offense particularly his scoring( it's not like he's a playmaker like others taken before him) so that's why his weak ISO game(in comparison to every other great scorer) matters.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#173 » by Quotatious » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:04 pm

The Infamous1 wrote:The difference between Karl and Kg is that Garnett is a defensive first player. Karl's major asset is his offense particularly his scoring( it's not like he's a playmaker like others taken before him) so that's why his weak ISO game(in comparison to every other great scorer) matters.

Yeah, and Garnett was also a better playmaker than Malone (Karl was an excellent passer, but not really the same kind of a "playmaker" as KG was in Minnesota). He could even play like a point forward for stretches, pretty amazing for a seven footer.
So I definitely agree that Karl's scoring decline in the postseason is worse than Kevin's, because if his scoring gets worse, his overall game is less valuable than Garnett's.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#174 » by ThaRegul8r » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:17 pm

Nowitzki relishes role in crunch time
Updated: December 17, 2009, 10:03 AM ET

DALLAS -- The German kid who used to stand in the corner with the game on the line has grown up.

Dirk Nowitzki has developed into one of the NBA's most dominant clutch players. That's not an opinion. It's fact, and it's backed by a bunch of statistics:

According to Elias Stats Bureau, Nowitzki has knocked down an NBA-best eight game-winning shots -- three this season -- in the final two seconds since 2005-06. Dwyane Wade ranks second with five.


Nowitzki has hit 10 game winners in the final 10 seconds during that span, tied for first through Wednesday with Kobe Bryant and one ahead of David West and Chauncey Billups.

Nowitzki annually ranks among the league's top clutch scorers, as calculated by 82games.com, which defines "clutch" as less than five minutes remaining and neither team ahead by more than five points. Nowitzki has averaged more than 40 points per 48 minutes in those situations in five of the past six seasons (39.3 in 2005-06 is the exception). He's averaging a career-best 47.1 points per 48 clutch minutes this season.

As a 7-footer with shooting guard skills, Nowitzki has always been a matchup nightmare. However, a maturation process had to take place before he had the mentality to be the Dallas Mavericks' go-to guy in game-deciding moments.

Early in his career, Nowitzki knew his place in the crunch-time pecking order with the Mavs' Big Three. Michael Finley was the first option. Steve Nash was next. Nowitzki was the perimeter threat who spaced the floor.

"Now he wants that shot," Mavericks owner Mark Cuban said. "There's like no doubt in anybody's mind that he's taking that shot -- and you can't stop it."


This was before 2011.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#175 » by FJS » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:31 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:In a Karl vs Dirk comparison I think it's all about what each voter gives priority to. Malone's RS career, his longevity, his awards, is impressive enough to be considered in the TOP10. There's no discussion he has an edge there over Dirk. On the other hand, Dirk has been a vastly superior scorer and offensive player, to the point Karl looks like Garnett without having the same defensive dominance. To me it should be clearly Dirk, as I consider post season play the difference when arguing TOP10 players.


Dirk vastly superior scorer and offensive player???

Dirk has scored 25 points or more in 4 seasons of 16
Malone did in 12 of 19.

In PO dirk has scored 25 or more in 9 of 13 (missing 4 times playoffs)
Malone did in 12 of 19 (never missing PO)


Dirk FG% RS 47.6 PO 46.1
Karl FG% RS 51.6 PO 46.3

Karl dropped, but still it's marginally better than dirk.

Dirk it's better in TS because 3pt and FT give you a great spark in it, still being worse due to Karl didn't shot 3pt and was worse in FT (not he was a bad shooter to be a PF)

Talking about PO
Karl as the man in Utah was a 26.3 ppg in PO, better than in regular season.
Dirk is 25.6 ppg in po.

Not to talk Karl Malone evolutioned to a very nice passer, being a 4 apg since 94 to 04 in PO.
Dirk peaked in 2008 with 4, and then he is passing everytime less (1.6 apg in 20014)

Not talking about defense. Karl could defend Robinson, Shaq, Duncan in his prime, he even did a great job vs Duncan and Garnett in 2004, when he was almost 41 and injuried. And he was better rebounding, altough Dirk made a better job in PO than in RS.

I'm not saying it's no close, because Dirk deserve a lot of consideration, but The Mailman was not worse in the offensive end and he was better in the deffensive end.
If Dirk didn't scored more than the Mailman in Utah, didn't shot better, didn't assist more... it's complicated to say he was "vastly offensiver scprer and better offensive player"
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#176 » by ShaqAttack3234 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:33 pm

I'd go with Dirk over Karl because Dirk himself was an above average defender, not that different as a rebounder(especially considering defensive rebounding, where they played offensively and the playoffs), and because I firmly believe Dirk was the better scorer and offensive player despite regular season numbers, which I feel is backed up by Dirk scoring as much in the playoffs on superior efficiency, repeatedly taking over games in a way Malone was criticized for not doing and look at Dirk's impact on his team's offenses, and the multiple times he's led top offenses.

I would have gone for Moses over either, though.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#177 » by ThaRegul8r » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:36 pm

The Infamous1 wrote:
therealbig3 wrote:Vote: Karl Malone

I feel like Moses is in general an overrated player whose actual impact was highly questionable. Dirk imo is the best peak player of the 3, and he does have legit longevity...but Karl Malone's longevity is on another level, and he was still a fantastic player during his prime. From 94-97, there was no question who the best PF in the game was.

Offensively, the only thing he really lacked was elite ISO scoring...which as all of you recall, was the same criticism hurled at KG, and is the same criticism of Robinson. And my personal belief is: the importance of this is vastly overrated. Can K. Malone catch and finish? Yes. Can he shoot? Yes. Can he reliably secure the ball? Yes. Can he read defenses and make good passes? Yes. Can he set good screens? Yes.

If he did do all of those things at an elite level (and he did)...he's already having a large offensive impact from the PF position. On top of that...his ISO scoring ability wasn't ever that bad either, even in the playoffs.


The difference between Karl and Kg is that Garnett is a defensive first player. Karl's major asset is his offense particularly his scoring( it's not like he's a playmaker like others taken before him) so that's why his weak ISO game(in comparison to every other great scorer) matters.


Quotatious wrote:
The Infamous1 wrote:The difference between Karl and Kg is that Garnett is a defensive first player. Karl's major asset is his offense particularly his scoring( it's not like he's a playmaker like others taken before him) so that's why his weak ISO game(in comparison to every other great scorer) matters.

Yeah, and Garnett was also a better playmaker than Malone (Karl was an excellent passer, but not really the same kind of a "playmaker" as KG was in Minnesota). He could even play like a point forward for stretches, pretty amazing for a seven footer.
So I definitely agree that Karl's scoring decline in the postseason is worse than Kevin's, because if his scoring gets worse, his overall game is less valuable than Garnett's.


Bastillon's a Garnett guy, and that's what he said:

bastillon wrote:I think it deserves a mention that I've been defending Garnett for years despite the fact that his postseason scoring left a lot to be desired as well. but I've always maintained that Garnett's scoring is only a cherry on top type of contribution because he's so versatile, he does so many things, that it's simply hard to measure his impact with ppg numbers. contrary to Garnett's case, scoring is actually Malone's forte. when it goes down, his best attribute is gone.


In my criteria I leave it completely open as to how exactly a player helps his team, not punishing players for bringing different things to the table than what is necessarily valued by the majority of fans. Whatever it is though, if a player can't utilize what he brings to the table as effectively as another player can utilize his strengths when the team needs it, then...
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#178 » by Texas Chuck » Sun Aug 10, 2014 12:53 pm

john248 wrote:In Dirk's (or anyone) case, it only "indirectly suggests that scoring efficiency is a poor way to estimate a player's postseason impact" if you really feel that there was some type of trend in regards to the Mavs losing to worse teams (03 though Dirk is injured in game 3, 06, 07). Now, if you feel the Mavs lost series to better teams, then I don't see a problem here if we're operating under the premise that this is a team game.




I actually broke down Dirk's performance in every series the Mavs were eliminated in during his career. You have the 07 GSW series where the team was the clear favorite and Dirk played terrible as really the only series where you could even suggest that Dirk's play was the reason his team lost to an inferior opponent.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#179 » by rich316 » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:25 pm

magicmerl wrote:
SactoKingsFan wrote:I think Narigo voted for Dirk.

Thanks. Right you are.

9 Karl Malone – ronnymac2, trex_8063, DHodgkins, FJS, SactoKingsFan, magicmerl, therealbig3, colts18, batmana
9 Dirk – Quotatious, ardee, fpliii, penbeast0, john248, RayBan-Sematra, Doctor MJ, Chuck Texas, Narigo
4 Moses – DannyNoonan1221, JordansBulls, DQuinn1575, basketballefan


I also voted Dirk.
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Re: RealGM Top 100 List #16--KARL v. MOSES v. DIRK (3way run 

Post#180 » by FJS » Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:42 pm

ShaqAttack3234 wrote:I'd go with Dirk over Karl because Dirk himself was an above average defender, not that different as a rebounder(especially considering defensive rebounding, where they played offensively and the playoffs), and because I firmly believe Dirk was the better scorer and offensive player despite regular season numbers, which I feel is backed up by Dirk scoring as much in the playoffs on superior efficiency, repeatedly taking over games in a way Malone was criticized for not doing and look at Dirk's impact on his team's offenses, and the multiple times he's led top offenses.

I would have gone for Moses over either, though.


john248 wrote:
ElGee wrote:

Karl Malone's Great Games

I think the focusing on all the negatives, with all players, does a great disservice to their positives. As I've said, it's better to have a guy with 10 amazing seasons and 5 horrible ones than a guy with 5 amazing seasons and 0 horrible ones.

People really need to consider how much this Losing Bias plays tricks on their brains. The lasting memory of Malone being stripped, or missing 2 FT's in the opening Finals game (on the heels of one or two questionable outs in the past) smacks of availibility heuristic (error). The brain will over-emphasize that easily accessible information in analysis. It happens to all players who lose, and the opposite happens to players who win.

I find it ironic that so many people who like to look at team roster don't consider just how much Malone did for the Jazz. He's quite similar to Dirk Nowitzki and this year's Dallas team ITO structure. Stockton by the late 90s has a reduced role of efficiency, and not much more (like Kidd). The team has a few shooters, a smart coach, a decent bench (Utah never had a Tyson Chandler) and it all revolves around Malone.

Anyway, in focusing on the positive and what people may have forgotten (or never known), here are Malone's greatest games from his prime:

1988
G2 LA – Malone scores 18 of his 29 in second half to “stun” LA at the Forum.
G6 LA – He predicts a G7 and delivers with 27-11 (58.5% TS)
G7 LA – In defeat again back-to-back champs, 31 points 15 rebounds (62.1% TS)

1989
G2 GSW – Malone, scoreless in the 1st of G1 (16 in 2nd half) came out blazing, with 14 in first and 24 at half. He finished with 37 points (13-25, 11-14) and 22 rebounds, but the rest of the jazz were 18-54 (33%). I just don't see the evidence his team was very good in these years (Malone had 33-14 in G3).

1990
G4 Pho After going just 23-62 in the first 3 games, Malone helps force game 5 with 33 points (13-24, 7-9) and 11 rebounds. (Note, in Game 5, Malone tied the score with a 20-footer in the final seconds of the game, but KJ hit a buzzer beater to win. Malone 26-9 (10-19, 6-12) in that game, Stockton just 3-11)

1991
G5 Pho – Malone scores 11 of his 38 points in the 4th quarter to close out the Suns.
G2 Por – After a subpar G1, Malone goes for 40 in G2 defeat. He sparks a 23-point deficit, 45-point fourth quarter with 20 4th-quarter points of his own (31 in 2nd half). They lose on a Terry Porter buzzer beater. Malone made 2 Fts with 41 seconds left ot cut it 116-112, then forced a jump on Ainge on inbounds. Utah won it, Jeff Malone hit to make it 116-114, then Karl tied it with FT's at 116-116.

1992
G4 v LAC Malone with 44 and 11 but rest of Jazz combine for 23-55 (41.8%) and Clips shoot 50% to win.
G5 v Sea – To closeout Sonics, Malone scores 15 of his 37 in 4th, erasing an 8 point hole.
G3 v Por – Down 2-0 and back home, Malone goes for an absolute gem: 39-7-7 (68% TS)
G5 v Por – In the pivotal game of the series, with Stockton injured and out most of game, Malone carries the Jazz into OT with 38 points. This game was on classic recently and I've referenced, but it's a hugely steady diet of Karl on offense for Utah. Malone had 28 of 38 in 2nd half. He had 14 rebounds.

1994
G4 v Spurs – He closes out San Antonio with 34 and 12 (60% TS) and the key 20-footer with 42 seconds left to put Utah up 91-88.
G7 v Den – Malone with 31 and 14 on 12-23. “Karl took over” Hornacek said afterwards.

1995
G3 Hou – After Houston evened the series, Malone dropped 32-19-5 in Hou, with 21 in the second half. Malone had 11 in the third to spark the game's key run, according to AP report.

1996
G5 Por – Utah just destroyed Portland, and Malone had 21-10 in only 31 minutes. His counterparts, Buck Williams and Harvey Grant, shot a combined 3-14 for Portland.
G5+6 Sea Facing elimination, Malone with two huge games (30.5 ppg 12.5 rap 4.5 apg)

1997
G4 LAL – Ahead 2-1, Malone just crushes lakers as he rebounds from a 2-20 game: 42 points, 9 rebounds.
G5 LAL – He finishes LA with a 32 point 20 rebound performance in G5 at home. Btw, you barely notice Shaquille O'Neal is playing for the Lakers when you watch the 4th Q and OT of that game, until a dunk at ~3 min. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_4i2ZZsUbk&NR=1) Malone with a jumper at 3:20 of OT after 2 FT's, then a fade with 90 seconds left over Campbell to make it 96-93, the final FG.
G3 Chi – Down 2-0, Malone responds with 37 poits an 10 boards (55% TS) back in Utah.

1998
G5 Hou – This time – perhaps because Hakeem is older? – Malone bests Houston with 31-15-5 virtuoso game.
G4 SAS – Again, up 2-1 Malone goes for 34-12-4 (17-28) in a game 4 after a bad G3 (6-21 shooting), this against the Spurs twin towers and top-rated defense. Avery Johnson described the game afterwards simply as, “Karl Malone.” Robinson said “Malone was as good as he could be shooting the ball.”
G5 Chi – Basically single-handedly carries Utah back home with 17-27 39-9-5 game, and was easily the best player on court that day. He hit the dagger shot in the final minute to secure an 80-76 lead. Jordan misses at buzzer. (Final 6 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-E9rmJPh5U&NR=1

In the Final 6 minutes: Malone is doubled which leads to a breakdown, and ultimately a Carr layup. On the next trip he is doubled and hits Carr for open J. Then Malone with a scoop over Rodman. At 2:00 left, another double leads to a hockey assist on another Carr J. Then the dagger over Rodman, and Costas says “Malone is personally pushing the series back to Utah.”

G6 v Chi – Has 31-11-7 and does seemingly everything, except infamously hold on to the ball on his final touch.

(Interesting note about the last 2 games– Malone with 70 of Utah's 149 points in final 2 games (47%!) on 65.4% TS 28-46, 14-17. Jordan with 73 of Chicago's 148 points (49%) on 24-61, 22-26 on 50.4% TS)


ElGee said some examples. Malone had his bad games, but he had some of the best playoffs games one player could had.

Same as Dirk.. he had his bad games either, probably more than Malones did:

Some Examples: (searching for under 42% FG, who are terrible games for a player like Dirk)
2001: vs Utah Jazz Won 3-2
G1: 35 FG% G2: 27.5 FG% G5: 25.% FG%
2001: Vs SA Lost 4-1
G1: 23.1 FG% G2: 30% FG G3: 33% FG

2002: vs Wolves Won 3-0
G2: 42 %FG

VS Kings Lost
G1: 33.3 FG G3: 40 % FG G4: 32.1 % FG

2003: vs Blazers Won 4-3
G2: 32 % FG G6: 18 % FG

2003: vs Kings Won 4-3
G4: 28.6 FG% G5: 33.3 FG% G6: 35 % FG

2003: Vs SA (he went injuried after game 3) Lost 4-2
G2: 42% FG G3: 35 %


2004: Vs Kings (lost 4-1)
G4: 22.2 FG%

2005 Vs Rockets (won 4-3)
G1: 26% G2: 38% G3: 28.6 % G5: 40% G6: 22% G7: 35%
Altough some people say Karl had better supporting cast, I can tell you no one Jazz roster could pass a round with those FG% of Karl Malone.

2005 Vs Suns (Lost 4-2)
G2: 33.3 FG% G6: 36% FG

2006 Vs Spurs (won 4-3)
G1: 40 % G3: 33.3%
2006 VS Suns (won 4-2)
G4: 23.1 % G6: 40 % FG
2006 vs Heat (lost 2-4)
G1: 28 % G4: 14.3% G5: 42%

2007 vs GSW (lost 2-4)
G1: 25% G6: 15.4 %

2008 vs Hornets (lost 1-4)
G1: 42% G5: 38%

2009 vs Spurs (won 4-1)
G2: 21%

2010 vs Spurs (lost 4-2)
G2: 37% G4: 40%

2011 vs Blazers (won 4-2)
G1: 35% G2: 40% G4: 41%
VS Lakers (won 4-0)
G4: 38.9%

2011 vs OKC (won 4-1)
G3: 33.3%

2011 vs Heat (won 4-2)
G1: 38.9 % G4: 31.6 G6: 33.3

Dirk played great playoffs, but 26 ppg in 41.6 FG, it's not better than Karl Malone's 97 and 98 Finals. A lor of people said Dirk made it for himself (he played great vs Lakers and OKC) but his teammates helped a lot, and of course Lebron did not have his best series either.

2012 vs OKC (lost 4-0)
G3: 40% G4: 40%

2013: Missed playoffs

2014: Lost 3-4 vs SA
G1: 28.6 % G2: 36% G4: 36% G6: 38.1%


As you watch, Dirk had a plenty of horrible nights shooting in PO (his better weapon) His TS is nice, because he is a great 3pt Shooter and a 90% FT shooter, but it's not like he is unguardable.
He did not shoot better than Malone in PO, he did not scored more. He did not played better than Malone in Finals (utah Jazz finals)

97 Finals Malone > 2006 Finals Dirk
98 Finals Malone > 2011 Finals Dirk

The main difference? Dirk won one ring, when Lebron did not show and he get some help (some unexpected help from the one like Terry with 18 ppg or Marion with 13 ppg)

Jordan did show, as the rest of the Bulls, and Karl had a better teammates around (stockton and Hornacek) but they did not help in scoring, being Hornacek the secong one with 10 ppg and stockton the 3rd with 9 ppg
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