Victory Cigar!!! BOS 110 @ DAL 102 (16-2)

[31to6]

It seems only with Marcus where his key plays somehow matter more than other players key plays. I don't get it. He is the most polarizing Celtic in years.

Remember that amazing save by Tatum on the baseline when Kyrie overthrew him? Or when Jaylen **** up Barea, took the ball from him, and took off downcourt?

You can be a talented offensive player, and/or athletic and/or long as hell, and do those things too. Whether or not you'll get credit for it seems to vary though.

I think we're giving Tatum credit for his work as a (rookie) defender. He's ahead of schedule and we've acknowledged that.

I think Brown is better on defense than we typically discuss (metrics are starting to show this out) although more and more people are bringing it up lately.

I was just providing evidence to support GoGreen's post.

[ThirtyFour]

I just can't help but feel like his terrible offense vs his amazing defense often times cancel each other out.

Did you feel the same about IT? Because I'd understand that. You want to have players that are well rounded.

I think Brad prefers players that are extremes. I'm sure he'd love a Kawhi to work with, but he doesn't seem to need that kind of player. He game plans around individual strengths, and if he has amazing/unique strengths to work with (like Smart), he gets to be creative.

Yes, to a point I did, but he was also all of our offense much of the time last year so it's a bit different. Look if this was football I'd be all about keeping Smart on a large contract, but when you can't put the basketball in the hoop four or five times in a row and that happens 2 or 3 times a game, it may be fine when it's a regular season game but when you're playing the Cavs in the playoffs it just is a much larger hill to climb.

[return2glory]

Good win.

Another amazing come from behind Victory.

Kyrie all the way for VC. He was phenomenal!!

Horford with a rare off night.

Brown with another strong game. Tatum was solid.

Smart had 12 points and 8 assists but shot 3-15 from the field. If he made 4 more shots he would have had a 20 point game. Make some shots Marcus!

Good to see Rozier get his minutes cut. It’s hard to have 2 brick layers playing heavy minutes.

Semi need to sit for a while. Call up Bird and give him some minutes. Or give Nader a longer look.

[tlee324]

I'm glad he made huge plays down the stretch without which we wouldn't win the game.
As I and countless others pointed out, he helped shoot us out of a big lead.
Plenty to deal with on both 'sides' instead of acting like this is one of those clear-cut things, like how Jaylen Brown isn't good at basketball.

It seems only with Marcus where his key plays somehow matter more than other players key plays. I don't get it. He is the most polarizing Celtic in years.

I wouldn't say he's polarizing. 90% of the posters can do math and know Smart sucks.

2 posters like him.

Marcus has his fans, more than two. There are valid reasons to like him. There are valid reasons to not. Thus, the polarizing.

I think we can eventually replace the hustle, passing and the defense with someone who brings that with better offensive talent. Hell, I'd take Evan Turner in the same role of not for that **** up contract... Fortunately we have some great actual two way production going on around him that it can make up for his offensive atrocities.

[ThirtyFour]

That's what those hypercritical of Smart don't understand. There is the box score, there is looking beyond the box score, and then there's Smart. His plays are often sneaky investments, the benefits of which you reap for multiple possessions in ways that are subtle. These plays often have galvanizing effects which go unseen by many fans, but are intimately felt by his teammates.

Once more fans realize that possessions aren't isolated events played in a vacuum, they'll learn to appreciate Smart more. Brad Stevens already knows this, and you all know Brad is a future-HOF coach. If you can't put your trust in Smart, at least put it in Brad.

I understand it up until a point and then I don't, I'll be honest, maybe I'm just dumb, but I have watched Marcus his entire career as a Celtics. I liked him for a good portion of his career here and there are still parts I do like, but, I just can't help but feel like his terrible offense vs his amazing defense often times cancel each other out. I just don't feel that there is an accurate stat to show what I see when I watch him play, which is basically having to fight uphill more than we should have to due to his poor shooting. It's enough to drive a person insane, and perhaps that's what he has done in my case?? I am for keeping him and paying him basic money, but beyond that, idk.

I understand the frustration. Basketball is a game of inches, though. It's too simplistic to look at it and just say "bad offense, good defense." The game is more subtle than that. There's a reason why when he is on the floor, the team overall seems to do better. A game here and there, you can say it's a small sample size. But when it happens time and time again, you have to ask yourself why and maybe admit that your eyes are deceiving you.

It's easy to understand why our eyes can deceive us because offense is inherently a more visible endeavor than defense, especially to more casual fans (no disrespect, speaking generally here). A missed 25-footer catches the eye a lot more than denying the deep position on a guard who is about to post up but doesn't because Smart's tank frame is there in the way. The latter you probably don't even notice because nothing really comes to fruition, but it is invaluable. Take that idea, multiply it by the countless number of times he does little things like that per game, and you understand why Brad "wunderkind" Stevens somehow has faith in him. We all agree Brad knows what he's doing right? Why all of a sudden doubt that's the case here?

With all that said, Smart is obviously not a perfect player, no one is. If he reduced his FGA by about 25%, he'd be even better.

So let me ask you this. How much do you believe Smart is worth, and if you could trade him for one player in the league that you think another team would actually go for, who would your choice be?

[fallguy]

Anyone miss Thomas at this point? Or are folks finally ready to tip their caps to Danny for that deal?

[31to6]

Wokest of them all...

Read on Twitter

That's what those hypercritical of Smart don't understand. There is the box score, there is looking beyond the box score, and then there's Smart. His plays are often sneaky investments, the benefits of which you reap for multiple possessions in ways that are subtle. These plays often have galvanizing effects which go unseen by many fans, but are intimately felt by his teammates.

Once more fans realize that possessions aren't isolated events played in a vacuum, they'll learn to appreciate Smart more. Brad Stevens already knows this, and you all know Brad is a future-HOF coach. If you can't put your trust in Smart, at least put it in Brad.

That's a lot of fancy writing to call out anyone for ragging on a guy shooting 27%. Whether they are isolated events played in a vacuum or not, a lot of our possessions are empty trips right now due to the historically bad shooting of our backup guards.

Your hypothesis is testable, though: we'll see if Marcus' teammates remain okay with him shooting 3-for-15 (actually hopefully not; hit a shot Marcus!).

As I've said elsewhere, there's a lot of other guys on this roster playing some really good defense right now too. Whether or not that is felt intimately by each other is not something I'm currently qualified to speak on.

[Jingles]

It seems only with Marcus where his key plays somehow matter more than other players key plays. I don't get it. He is the most polarizing Celtic in years.

Remember that amazing save by Tatum on the baseline when Kyrie overthrew him? Or when Jaylen **** up Barea, took the ball from him, and took off downcourt?

You can be a talented offensive player, and/or athletic and/or long as hell, and do those things too. Whether or not you'll get credit for it seems to vary though.

I think we're giving Tatum credit for his work as a (rookie) defender. He's ahead of schedule and we've acknowledged that.

I think Brown is better on defense than we typically discuss (metrics are starting to show this out) although more and more people are bringing it up lately.

Jaylen is absolutely nailing his switches out there and is becoming positional demon on D, along with the 1v1 abilities we already knew he had. You can really see how bothersome his length/quickness/strength is when he's locked in like this.

Tatum isn't quite there yet but he's way ahead of where Jaylen was last year. Doesn't have the same raw athleticism but he absolutely has the head to be a + defender. Some of these lineups they're throwing at teams late in games is just unfair.

[Edug27]

Good win.

Another amazing come from behind Victory.

Kyrie all the way for VC. He was phenomenal!!

Horford with a rare off night.

Brown with another strong game. Tatum was solid.

Smart had 12 points and 8 assists but shot 3-15 from the field. If he made 4 more shots he would have had a 20 point game. Make some shots Marcus!

Good to see Rozier get his minutes cut. It’s hard to have 2 brick layers playing heavy minutes.

Semi need to sit for a while. Call up Bird and give him some minutes. Or give Nader a longer look.

Ever since Semis up-and-under And1 a few games ago, he's been meh. Lol.

[CavemanDoctor]

Wokest of them all...

Read on Twitter

That's what those hypercritical of Smart don't understand. There is the box score, there is looking beyond the box score, and then there's Smart. His plays are often sneaky investments, the benefits of which you reap for multiple possessions in ways that are subtle. These plays often have galvanizing effects which go unseen by many fans, but are intimately felt by his teammates.

Once more fans realize that possessions aren't isolated events played in a vacuum, they'll learn to appreciate Smart more. Brad Stevens already knows this, and you all know Brad is a future-HOF coach. If you can't put your trust in Smart, at least put it in Brad.

That's a lot of fancy writing to call out anyone for ragging on a guy shooting 27%. Whether they are isolated events played in a vacuum or not, a lot of our possessions are empty trips right now due to the historically bad shooting of our backup guards.

Your hypothesis is testable, though: we'll see if Marcus' teammates remain okay with him shooting 3-for-15 (actually hopefully not; hit a shot Marcus!).

As I've said elsewhere, there's a lot of other guys on this roster playing some really good defense right now too. Whether or not that is felt intimately by each other is not something I'm currently qualified to speak on.

Read on Twitter

[31to6]

Was supposed to be Hayward.

Falls on Marcus.

If something's not working (and the second unit isn't, and the three PGs shooting 28% certainly isn't) pretty sure it falls to the coaching staff to try something new. Plenty of things to try.

And as part of that Marcus has become good at creating for others when he's in that mode -- can really help keep him viable if the shot never comes around. Keep it moving rather than shooting it some more. Keep pace in the offense. Don't ball-stop. Keep getting in the gym to work on that jumper or get some therapy or a puppy or something. Plenty of ways to improve.

Like what?

None of Jaylen, Rozier, Baynes, Morris, Tatum, Nader, Ojeleye, Theis or Yabusele has a **** SHRED of ability to run an offense.

Here's your choices with the current roster for bench scoring: Smart or Larkin.

Or just play Kyrie a hundred billion minutes a game.

Not sure if serious. Smart can create. Morris or Tatum or Al or Jaylen or whoever can shoot. I thought I just wrote that. Work for Brad to do; work for Smart to do. Marcus doesn't have to put up 10+ shots a game. He can still do his awesome other stuff.

[CavemanDoctor]

I understand it up until a point and then I don't, I'll be honest, maybe I'm just dumb, but I have watched Marcus his entire career as a Celtics. I liked him for a good portion of his career here and there are still parts I do like, but, I just can't help but feel like his terrible offense vs his amazing defense often times cancel each other out. I just don't feel that there is an accurate stat to show what I see when I watch him play, which is basically having to fight uphill more than we should have to due to his poor shooting. It's enough to drive a person insane, and perhaps that's what he has done in my case?? I am for keeping him and paying him basic money, but beyond that, idk.

I understand the frustration. Basketball is a game of inches, though. It's too simplistic to look at it and just say "bad offense, good defense." The game is more subtle than that. There's a reason why when he is on the floor, the team overall seems to do better. A game here and there, you can say it's a small sample size. But when it happens time and time again, you have to ask yourself why and maybe admit that your eyes are deceiving you.

It's easy to understand why our eyes can deceive us because offense is inherently a more visible endeavor than defense, especially to more casual fans (no disrespect, speaking generally here). A missed 25-footer catches the eye a lot more than denying the deep position on a guard who is about to post up but doesn't because Smart's tank frame is there in the way. The latter you probably don't even notice because nothing really comes to fruition, but it is invaluable. Take that idea, multiply it by the countless number of times he does little things like that per game, and you understand why Brad "wunderkind" Stevens somehow has faith in him. We all agree Brad knows what he's doing right? Why all of a sudden doubt that's the case here?

With all that said, Smart is obviously not a perfect player, no one is. If he reduced his FGA by about 25%, he'd be even better.

So let me ask you this. How much do you believe Smart is worth, and if you could trade him for one player in the league that you think another team would actually go for, who would your choice be?

He's worth more to us than he would fetch in a trade so the latter question is irrelevant, imo.

As for the former, 4/55 and I'm happy. He'll probably end up getting more.

[ViperGTS]

Oh and I’ll add my thought. Tatum is clearly the ROY. I mad tired of the Simmons Bs. Every article I read has (if they could put it in fine print they would, and they quickly gloss over it) the standard well if he could find a shot. Well, Tatum has shooting at all level. He can post up, finish at the basket and play hellacious defense.

More people need to wake up and see this and maybe they will.

There is no way I am 'waking up and seeing this.'
Simmons is a legit star, not that this is the thread for it we're arguing about Marcus here:)

Sigh. Legit star? Anyone who can’t shoot the basketball isn’t a star. He’s good. Until he can find a shot he’s just that. Then is Marcus a star? He can’t shoot either.

[fallguy]

We should really have a pinned rookie thread to argue about all the new guys around the league.

[31to6]

That's what those hypercritical of Smart don't understand. There is the box score, there is looking beyond the box score, and then there's Smart. His plays are often sneaky investments, the benefits of which you reap for multiple possessions in ways that are subtle. These plays often have galvanizing effects which go unseen by many fans, but are intimately felt by his teammates.

Once more fans realize that possessions aren't isolated events played in a vacuum, they'll learn to appreciate Smart more. Brad Stevens already knows this, and you all know Brad is a future-HOF coach. If you can't put your trust in Smart, at least put it in Brad.

That's a lot of fancy writing to call out anyone for ragging on a guy shooting 27%. Whether they are isolated events played in a vacuum or not, a lot of our possessions are empty trips right now due to the historically bad shooting of our backup guards.

Your hypothesis is testable, though: we'll see if Marcus' teammates remain okay with him shooting 3-for-15 (actually hopefully not; hit a shot Marcus!).

As I've said elsewhere, there's a lot of other guys on this roster playing some really good defense right now too. Whether or not that is felt intimately by each other is not something I'm currently qualified to speak on.

Read on Twitter

Cool, so a) maybe we can get Chandler Parson and a second for him, and b) (more serious comment) if he can brick four fewer 3s per game he'll be even more valuable to us.

[31to6]

Oh and I’ll add my thought. Tatum is clearly the ROY. I mad tired of the Simmons Bs. Every article I read has (if they could put it in fine print they would, and they quickly gloss over it) the standard well if he could find a shot. Well, Tatum has shooting at all level. He can post up, finish at the basket and play hellacious defense.

More people need to wake up and see this and maybe they will.

There is no way I am 'waking up and seeing this.'
Simmons is a legit star, not that this is the thread for it we're arguing about Marcus here:)

Sigh. Legit star? Anyone who can’t shoot the basketball isn’t a star. He’s good. Until he can find a shot he’s just that. Then is Marcus a star? He can’t shoot either.

Look you can keep saying Simmons and Giannis aren't good but no one's really going to bother talking to you about it.

[ViperGTS]

There is no way I am 'waking up and seeing this.'
Simmons is a legit star, not that this is the thread for it we're arguing about Marcus here:)

Sigh. Legit star? Anyone who can’t shoot the basketball isn’t a star. He’s good. Until he can find a shot he’s just that. Then is Marcus a star? He can’t shoot either.

Look you can keep saying Simmons and Giannis aren't good but no one's really going to bother talking to you about it.

Didn’t say they weren’t good. You said star. See above? I said good.

Keep trying.

[ViperGTS]

Oh and right now. Straight up.

Tatum for Simmons. Yea or nay?

[Shak_Celts]

simmons isn't roy because it's his 2nd season IDGAF if he didn't play the first season, he is stealing it from other guys! with that said, because of how it's set up, he IS the ROY! Kid is good! Tatum will just have to settle for Finals MVP!

[31to6]

Sigh. Legit star? Anyone who can’t shoot the basketball isn’t a star. He’s good. Until he can find a shot he’s just that. Then is Marcus a star? He can’t shoot either.

Look you can keep saying Simmons and Giannis aren't good but no one's really going to bother talking to you about it.

Didn’t say they weren’t good. You said star. See above? I said good.

Keep trying.

Sigh indeed. Giannis is a star and Simmons is pretty much one already, more so than Tatum, much as I like Tatum. I thought Simmons looked like a stud until we didn't get the right pingpong ball combination, then I spent a year hoping he sucked, but nah he's a stud, and has the stage to shine already. ROY easily as long as he stays healthy, and if he and Embiid both stay healthy they'll make the division an interesting one down the road. Zero interest in saying Tatum should be seen as >> Simmons or that Giannis is a 'dud' though so that's all I've got; maybe go strike up a convo on the GB about this if you want to pursue it with others?