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god shammgod wrote:we're kind of past the "stars" who need a guy to set them up phase of the nba. if you need that, you're limited to the point that you'll never be that great. stars get their own now.
moocow007 wrote:god shammgod wrote:we're kind of past the "stars" who need a guy to set them up phase of the nba. if you need that, you're limited to the point that you'll never be that great. stars get their own now.
Stars have other stars on the team so that they can actually get an opening to get their own. Name one star player on another team that is a star all by himself and you're likely talking about an MVP caliber player if you can even find one.
god shammgod wrote:we're kind of past the "stars" who need a guy to set them up phase of the nba. if you need that, you're limited to the point that you'll never be that great. stars get their own now.
ENYK wrote:god shammgod wrote:we're kind of past the "stars" who need a guy to set them up phase of the nba. if you need that, you're limited to the point that you'll never be that great. stars get their own now.
NoDopeOnSundays wrote:ENYK wrote:NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
I want to keep RJ, acquire more young talent and actually develop our players. Yall are missing the step that the Nets took, which was before getting KD & Kyrie, they went about acquiring young talent and actually developing them. They developed Russell, Allen, Harris, and Levert, who have we developed? We spent all that money on getting developmental coaches, so lets see what they can do.
See, this is fantasy world stuff, you think RJ isn't that great but think we'll be able to trade him for Fox or Suggs? I'm talking about reality here, the reality is we could utilize our young players more effectively. Back to the point of the thread, RJ + 2nd unit in place of Burks is more in line with a modern team's offense than Randle + 2nd unit in place of Obi. Any lineup including Julius is going to run into the issue of his ball dominance and what that means for running PnR.
What are his promising stats on shooting off the dribble or finishing inside? The one's I have seen suggest he is one of the worst positionally in the NBA (reflected in his very low PER). Maybe that is explainable partially by misuse on offense, but the shortcomings that scouts described when he entered the NBA are still his obvious downfall now (very ugly in the playoffs). Plays with one hand, isn't explosive, doesn't handle the ball particularly well for his position...
Are your hopes that he corrects all of these holes in his game (or physical shortcomings) any more realistic than mine that we use him to acquire talent that is more impactful in today's NBA? At the end of the day, we're all just fans here, talking s***. We have no idea how the FO views these players and wants to build, that's why they get the big bucks.
Some of us prefer our other youth--particularly IQ--so yes, at the end of the day this is more of a conversation or debate about how to focus the Knicks' energy moving forward. They are unlikely to want to develop 3 rookies next year, especially under Thibs, while hoping RJ takes the next step. Thibs' benching of RJ in critical moments reveals a lot about how Thibs views him at least.
You're letting your dislike of RJ cloud your argument, you have no stats to back up your assumption that he's a terrible finisher, he shot 61% at the rim, for comparison sake Morant shot 64%, Jaylen Brown shot 63% his second year (a year older than RJ), Booker shot 58% his second year. RJ's finishing is well within the range of what you expect from a 2nd year wing, could he improve, yes but saying he's one of the worst just means you have an axe to grind.
My hopes in him are based on simply comparing him to other wing players, I posted a thread about wing players in their first and second years, and it seems most of you think every all-star wing came out the gate like KD, LeBron and Luka when it's quite the opposite. I will keep going back to Jaylen Brown over and over again, it's almost comical how some of you can't see that his numbers and role on the team look eerily similar to Browns first 3 years, for instance Jaylen Brown had a 13.6 PER his second season while being a year older than RJ. So, just going by the stats you're using you would have wanted to trade Jaylen, because his PER, finishing and PnR stats are almost identical to RJs. We're much more likely to turn RJ into a 20-23ppg, 7rpg and 5apg player than we are trading him for Fox or Suggs.
We can focus on all our young players, like the Hawks did with theirs. The only thing that matters is how the front office views RJ, and if they're looking at RJ's numbers or have an analytics department they'll see the same exact things I'm seeing. Which is there's a playmaking slasher in there that can live off PnR but has been mostly utilized as a catch and shoot floor spacer, the day we figure out how to use RJ on the ball more is the day he blossoms.
Jesus he's not gifted like those other players and shooting wide open 3s has nothing do with athleticism skills or handle. He cants fix hops with hardwork and skills/handle take years to build up if Knicks don't sell him high soon then this board will start saying if only...Knicksfan1992 wrote:RJ Barrett year 2 (age 20) - 17.6/5.8/3.0 44.1/40.1/74.6 53.5 TS%, 0.078 ws/48 +2.4 Net Rating
Jayson Tatum year 2(Age 20) - 15.7/6.0/2.1 45.0/37.3/85.5 54.7 TS% 0.097 ws/48 +7.0 Net Rating
Jaylen Brown year 2 (Age 21)- 14.5/4.9/1.6 46.5/39.5/64.4 56.2 TS% 0.100 ws/48 +8.0 Net Rating
Brad Beal year 2 (Age 20) - 17.1/3.7/3.3 41.9/40.2/78.8 50.7 TS% 0.076 ws/48 +2.4 net rating
Khris Middleton year 2 (Age 22) - 12.1/3.8/2.1 44.0/41.4/86.1 54.1 TS% 0.053 ws/48 -8.6 net rating
Demar Derozan year 2 (Age 21) - 17.2/3.8/1.8 46.7/09.6/81.3 53.0 TS% 0.055 ws/48 -8.3 net rating
Victor Oladipo year 2 (age 22) - 17.9/4.2/4.1 43.6/33.9/81.9 52.7 TS% 0.065 ws/48 -6.7 net rating
Klay Thompson year 2 (age 22) - 16.6/3.7/2.2 42.2/40.1/84.1 53.3 TS% 0.070 ws/48 +1.4 net rating
Maybe just maybe don't give up on RJ just yet...just sayin'.
Most of these guys ended up being multi time all-star and all-NBA caliber players. Stats aren't the end all be all and in game scouting deserves more weight, but production does matter and RJ's production in his 2nd year mirrors some of the best younger/prime guards and wings in the league in their 2nd years and he happens to be younger than most of them at the time of his 2nd season also.
I understand everyone is disappointed in the playoff performance but i'm not going to overly weigh a 5 game sample size where the best player on the team chit the bed in his 1st playoff series over the 72 games of production that showed a possible all-star/all-nba caliber wing. I suggest y'all don't either, especially, given what we know RJ's work ethic is.
ENYK wrote:god shammgod wrote:we're kind of past the "stars" who need a guy to set them up phase of the nba. if you need that, you're limited to the point that you'll never be that great. stars get their own now.
100%, that's getting put on full display in this Bucks-Nets series. Giannis' inability to create offense for himself outside of an athletic drive into the paint is making this an embarrassing disaster for the Bucks.
Even the Celtics put up more of a fight, because they have one of those guys who can take over a game with his scoring/creating-Tatum. They have on more, they're the second best team in the league after the Nets.
People think we'll be a tough defending balanced team (Jazz-style) if we get a Conley, and I'm just trying to convey we still ain't s*** because we won't have a Donovan Mitchell (or a way to get that caliber of player).
Jimmit79 wrote:Jesus he's not gifted like those other players and shooting wide open 3s has nothing do with athleticism skills or handle. He cants fix hops with hardwork and skills/handle take years to build up if Knicks don't sell him high soon then this board will start saying if only...Knicksfan1992 wrote:RJ Barrett year 2 (age 20) - 17.6/5.8/3.0 44.1/40.1/74.6 53.5 TS%, 0.078 ws/48 +2.4 Net Rating
Jayson Tatum year 2(Age 20) - 15.7/6.0/2.1 45.0/37.3/85.5 54.7 TS% 0.097 ws/48 +7.0 Net Rating
Jaylen Brown year 2 (Age 21)- 14.5/4.9/1.6 46.5/39.5/64.4 56.2 TS% 0.100 ws/48 +8.0 Net Rating
Brad Beal year 2 (Age 20) - 17.1/3.7/3.3 41.9/40.2/78.8 50.7 TS% 0.076 ws/48 +2.4 net rating
Khris Middleton year 2 (Age 22) - 12.1/3.8/2.1 44.0/41.4/86.1 54.1 TS% 0.053 ws/48 -8.6 net rating
Demar Derozan year 2 (Age 21) - 17.2/3.8/1.8 46.7/09.6/81.3 53.0 TS% 0.055 ws/48 -8.3 net rating
Victor Oladipo year 2 (age 22) - 17.9/4.2/4.1 43.6/33.9/81.9 52.7 TS% 0.065 ws/48 -6.7 net rating
Klay Thompson year 2 (age 22) - 16.6/3.7/2.2 42.2/40.1/84.1 53.3 TS% 0.070 ws/48 +1.4 net rating
Maybe just maybe don't give up on RJ just yet...just sayin'.
Most of these guys ended up being multi time all-star and all-NBA caliber players. Stats aren't the end all be all and in game scouting deserves more weight, but production does matter and RJ's production in his 2nd year mirrors some of the best younger/prime guards and wings in the league in their 2nd years and he happens to be younger than most of them at the time of his 2nd season also.
I understand everyone is disappointed in the playoff performance but i'm not going to overly weigh a 5 game sample size where the best player on the team chit the bed in his 1st playoff series over the 72 games of production that showed a possible all-star/all-nba caliber wing. I suggest y'all don't either, especially, given what we know RJ's work ethic is.
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Jimmit79 wrote:Jesus he's not gifted like those other players and shooting wide open 3s has nothing do with athleticism skills or handle. He cants fix hops with hardwork and skills/handle take years to build up if Knicks don't sell him high soon then this board will start saying if only...Knicksfan1992 wrote:RJ Barrett year 2 (age 20) - 17.6/5.8/3.0 44.1/40.1/74.6 53.5 TS%, 0.078 ws/48 +2.4 Net Rating
Jayson Tatum year 2(Age 20) - 15.7/6.0/2.1 45.0/37.3/85.5 54.7 TS% 0.097 ws/48 +7.0 Net Rating
Jaylen Brown year 2 (Age 21)- 14.5/4.9/1.6 46.5/39.5/64.4 56.2 TS% 0.100 ws/48 +8.0 Net Rating
Brad Beal year 2 (Age 20) - 17.1/3.7/3.3 41.9/40.2/78.8 50.7 TS% 0.076 ws/48 +2.4 net rating
Khris Middleton year 2 (Age 22) - 12.1/3.8/2.1 44.0/41.4/86.1 54.1 TS% 0.053 ws/48 -8.6 net rating
Demar Derozan year 2 (Age 21) - 17.2/3.8/1.8 46.7/09.6/81.3 53.0 TS% 0.055 ws/48 -8.3 net rating
Victor Oladipo year 2 (age 22) - 17.9/4.2/4.1 43.6/33.9/81.9 52.7 TS% 0.065 ws/48 -6.7 net rating
Klay Thompson year 2 (age 22) - 16.6/3.7/2.2 42.2/40.1/84.1 53.3 TS% 0.070 ws/48 +1.4 net rating
Maybe just maybe don't give up on RJ just yet...just sayin'.
Most of these guys ended up being multi time all-star and all-NBA caliber players. Stats aren't the end all be all and in game scouting deserves more weight, but production does matter and RJ's production in his 2nd year mirrors some of the best younger/prime guards and wings in the league in their 2nd years and he happens to be younger than most of them at the time of his 2nd season also.
I understand everyone is disappointed in the playoff performance but i'm not going to overly weigh a 5 game sample size where the best player on the team chit the bed in his 1st playoff series over the 72 games of production that showed a possible all-star/all-nba caliber wing. I suggest y'all don't either, especially, given what we know RJ's work ethic is.
Sent from my HD1905 using Tapatalk
3toheadmelo wrote:Fury wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:I don’t really see any Derozan in him
I don't know how to embed this but:
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2011#stats-per_game
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2011#stats-advanced
They're very similar. When I say level, I don't mean they have the exact same game. Derozan is more athletic but RJ is a better shooter. But RJ is on pace for similar production.
But if you watch their games, it’s very different. I don’t get caught up in all these stats. They don’t really mean anything imo. People said Frank was on pace to be like Jrue Holiday because of his stats and well… we know how that ended. That’s why you gotta use the eye test.
Fury wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:Fury wrote:
I don't know how to embed this but:
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2011#stats-per_game
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2011#stats-advanced
They're very similar. When I say level, I don't mean they have the exact same game. Derozan is more athletic but RJ is a better shooter. But RJ is on pace for similar production.
But if you watch their games, it’s very different. I don’t get caught up in all these stats. They don’t really mean anything imo. People said Frank was on pace to be like Jrue Holiday because of his stats and well… we know how that ended. That’s why you gotta use the eye test.
Frank never played 35 minutes a game. These aren't per 36 numbers, this is a direct comparison.
If you watch their games (comparing Barrett to when Derozan came into the league), Derozan was not the efficient playmaker he is now. I think people get too caught up in the end product. He had some ugly games, and he's not close to the passer he is now. I think RJ projects to become as good a (maybe even better) passer as Derozan is now.
3toheadmelo wrote:The Tatum comparisons to RJ are just cringe..it’s like when people compared Knox to Tatum after his summer league.
Fury wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:Fury wrote:
I don't know how to embed this but:
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2011#stats-per_game
https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=barrerj01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id2=derozde01&p2yrfrom=2011#stats-advanced
They're very similar. When I say level, I don't mean they have the exact same game. Derozan is more athletic but RJ is a better shooter. But RJ is on pace for similar production.
But if you watch their games, it’s very different. I don’t get caught up in all these stats. They don’t really mean anything imo. People said Frank was on pace to be like Jrue Holiday because of his stats and well… we know how that ended. That’s why you gotta use the eye test.
Frank never played 35 minutes a game. These aren't per 36 numbers, this is a direct comparison.
If you watch their games (comparing Barrett to when Derozan came into the league), Derozan was not the efficient playmaker he is now. I think people get too caught up in the end product. He had some ugly games, and he's not close to the passer he is now. I think RJ projects to become as good a (maybe even better) passer as Derozan is now.
ENYK wrote:ENYK wrote:god shammgod wrote:we're kind of past the "stars" who need a guy to set them up phase of the nba. if you need that, you're limited to the point that you'll never be that great. stars get their own now.
100%, that's getting put on full display in this Bucks-Nets series. Giannis' inability to create offense for himself outside of an athletic drive into the paint is making this an embarrassing disaster for the Bucks.
Even the Celtics put up more of a fight, because they have one of those guys who can take over a game with his scoring/creating-Tatum. They have one more, they're the second best team in the league after the Nets.
People think we'll be a tough defending balanced team (Jazz-style) if we get a Conley, and I'm just trying to convey we still ain't s*** because we won't have a Donovan Mitchell (or a way to get that caliber of player).
3toheadmelo wrote:The Tatum comparisons to RJ are just cringe..it’s like when people compared Knox to Tatum after his summer league.
3toheadmelo wrote:Fury wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:But if you watch their games, it’s very different. I don’t get caught up in all these stats. They don’t really mean anything imo. People said Frank was on pace to be like Jrue Holiday because of his stats and well… we know how that ended. That’s why you gotta use the eye test.
Frank never played 35 minutes a game. These aren't per 36 numbers, this is a direct comparison.
If you watch their games (comparing Barrett to when Derozan came into the league), Derozan was not the efficient playmaker he is now. I think people get too caught up in the end product. He had some ugly games, and he's not close to the passer he is now. I think RJ projects to become as good a (maybe even better) passer as Derozan is now.
I’ve already compared Derozan coming out of college to RJ now a while ago. They aren’t really similar.
Fury wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:The Tatum comparisons to RJ are just cringe..it’s like when people compared Knox to Tatum after his summer league.
I don't think RJ is like Tatum but you get too emotionally attached to some dudes. Chillax.
3toheadmelo wrote:Fury wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:The Tatum comparisons to RJ are just cringe..it’s like when people compared Knox to Tatum after his summer league.
I don't think RJ is like Tatum but you get too emotionally attached to some dudes. Chillax.
I’m not the one making homer posts just to end up disappointed in the long term. So go ahead. I ain’t stopping you.
Fury wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:Fury wrote:
Frank never played 35 minutes a game. These aren't per 36 numbers, this is a direct comparison.
If you watch their games (comparing Barrett to when Derozan came into the league), Derozan was not the efficient playmaker he is now. I think people get too caught up in the end product. He had some ugly games, and he's not close to the passer he is now. I think RJ projects to become as good a (maybe even better) passer as Derozan is now.
I’ve already compared Derozan coming out of college to RJ now a while ago. They aren’t really similar.
I followed Derozan since High School. You were like in middle school? The player he is now isn't the player he was then. Barrett was a way better prospect.