PG: Pistons vs Knicks

[Meat]

RJ reminds me of Wiggins, not a bad player but would you really want to max him out

we should prob let him play a full year with a proper offseason\training camp(under competent people) before we start with this

[j4remi]

middleton was an all-star in 2019 and 2020, I don't think he needed to win the championship to get any credit as a good player

Who said people didn't think he was good? People didn't want to risk paying him.

[3toheadmelo]

Impatience is rampant. We got him out of the cradle so his year 5 will be like year 3 for lots of guys. And in his year 3 he's already a bona fide starter who stuffs the stat sheet. Plus, guys are bitching about him being inadequate on offense while praising his emerging potential as a lock-down defender. Yet he averages robust offensive numbers on superior 3 point shooting already. I don't know what to say frankly other than relax folks

says the guy that wanted to get rid of Randle for peanuts before he broke out

That's not really called for Melo, especially since I awarded you a giant gold star for backing Randle when almost everyone else did not.

Face it, Randle was a spinning turnover machine in his first year as a Knick. Yet I, along with pretty much everyone else here, highly value the changes he made to his game and Julius is almost universally loved by Knicks fans now.

So take your experience with Randle and apply it to RJ perhaps. Me saying people are being impatient sometimes with RJ is not petty, it's my observation. Take it at face value because I'm saying RJ has been on an upward trend his whole career and he keeps getting better at various facets of the game. If he's not your bag, that's fine, but he is not someone we should give up on.

im not saying to give up on him though and he’s an excellent role player. but I think it’s absolutely fair to discuss his expectations since we drafted him at #3. if we’re drafting someone that high the expectations for that player is that they will be a star at some point. and we aren’t really seeing those flashes. ill continue to be patient with him but that won’t stop me from talking about his limitations and what he needs to get better at. we have to face reality at some point.

[robillionaire]

RJ reminds me of Wiggins, not a bad player but would you really want to max him out

we should prob let him play a full year with a proper offseason\training camp(under competent people) before we start with this

well he's got this season and next season I guess. year 3 wiggins averaged 23.6 ppg

[3toheadmelo]

i called Middleton the most underrated player years ago. i saw his potential as a scorer since he always had the ability to create jumpers off the dribble. don’t see the same with rj. maybe I’m wrong we’ll see

RJ hasn't flashed that potential yet, it's true.

I personally think he has the base talent and the work ethic to develop those shot creation skills, maybe not at an elite level like Middleton (you know I'm Team Middleton) but at a decent level hopefully. Someone you can rely upon as a third shot creator.

I think it's fine if RJ becomes an elite role player in the Shawn Marion, Jrue Holiday (without the Frank percentages in the playoffs) mold. Maybe a couple All-Star appearances, but in terms of game be someone who fills in the gaps and does a little bit of everything.

What matters most to me is that he becomes a winning, impact player, whether he's a role player or a star player. I think he provides a lot of the intangibles that are required to fit that description, but either way he will need to be more efficient from the field. I'm confident that he will.

that’s a fair post

[HighRyzer83]

I don't get why people are saying we squeaked by them. When we wanted to score we scored. When we wanted to stop them we shut them down. Whatever happened in the beginning, in the end we were up 16 with under a minute left. Pistons hit some 3s in the last few seconds when no one was playing defense doesn't really count. If we didn't just dribble out the clock it was another blowout.

[3toheadmelo]

RJ reminds me of Wiggins, not a bad player but would you really want to max him out

we should prob let him play a full year with a proper offseason\training camp(under competent people) before we start with this

well he's got this season and next season I guess. year 3 wiggins averaged 23.6 ppg

Wiggins always was a pretty good scorer to be honest. but his motor sucks. to his credit he improved a lot on the defense end on golden state

[robillionaire]

middleton was an all-star in 2019 and 2020, I don't think he needed to win the championship to get any credit as a good player

Who said people didn't think he was good? People didn't want to risk paying him.

well that's ultimately the issue at hand isn't it, do we want to risk paying RJ if he doesn't look like he has all-star potential after year 4? Because MIddleton actually was an all-star. Wiggins got the max bag and has never been an all-star, are we okay with that outcome

[robillionaire]

we should prob let him play a full year with a proper offseason\training camp(under competent people) before we start with this

well he's got this season and next season I guess. year 3 wiggins averaged 23.6 ppg

Wiggins always was a pretty good scorer to be honest. but his motor sucks. to his credit he improved a lot on the defense end on golden state

he also shot 38% from 3 on 5.1 attempts per game, but keep in mind this is a player who most this fanbase wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole and wanted multiple 1sts just to take on his salary in hypothetical discussions last summer

[BugginOut]

RJ doesn’t need to take midrange pull-ups to be an effective player. Harden doesn’t take mid range shots at all and he is one of the greatest scorers of all time.

What RJ needs to do is take more pull up 3s, finish at the rim and draw fouls.

The lack of pull up 3s may be due to lack of ability or it may be due to design. Randle and Kemba are the only starters taking pull up 3s. Even Fournier who averaged three pull up 3s a game last year is shooting mostly off C&S.

Finishing is still the biggest concern, if RJ can’t get some wiggle at the rim or start drawing fouls it will really limit RJ’s ceiling as a player

[Clyde_Style]

says the guy that wanted to get rid of Randle for peanuts before he broke out

That's not really called for Melo, especially since I awarded you a giant gold star for backing Randle when almost everyone else did not.

Face it, Randle was a spinning turnover machine in his first year as a Knick. Yet I, along with pretty much everyone else here, highly value the changes he made to his game and Julius is almost universally loved by Knicks fans now.

So take your experience with Randle and apply it to RJ perhaps. Me saying people are being impatient sometimes with RJ is not petty, it's my observation. Take it at face value because I'm saying RJ has been on an upward trend his whole career and he keeps getting better at various facets of the game. If he's not your bag, that's fine, but he is not someone we should give up on.

im not saying to give up on him though and he’s an excellent role player. but I think it’s absolutely fair to discuss his expectations since we drafted him at #3. if we’re drafting someone that high the expectations for that player is that they will be a star at some point. and we aren’t really seeing those flashes. ill continue to be patient with him but that won’t stop me from talking about his limitations and what he needs to get better at. we have to face reality at some point.

Just some perspective then is what I think helps with all of that. Randle is entering his 8th season in the NBA and he only hit his stride in his 7th year. This is only RJ's third season and he's only 21.

[Marty McFly]

middleton was an all-star in 2019 and 2020, I don't think he needed to win the championship to get any credit as a good player

Who said people didn't think he was good? People didn't want to risk paying him.

well that's ultimately the issue at hand isn't it, do we want to risk paying RJ if he doesn't look like he has all-star potential after year 4? Because MIddleton actually was an all-star. Wiggins got the max bag and has never been an all-star, are we okay with that outcome

different players with different mindsets. RJ has a better head on his shoulders. he's going to have a Jimmy Butler type development. I'm absolutely paying him. never mind the fact that the end goal is attracting his friend Zion.

[3toheadmelo]

well he's got this season and next season I guess. year 3 wiggins averaged 23.6 ppg

Wiggins always was a pretty good scorer to be honest. but his motor sucks. to his credit he improved a lot on the defense end on golden state

he also shot 38% from 3 on 5.1 attempts per game, but keep in mind this is a player who most this fanbase wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole and wanted multiple 1sts just to take on his salary in hypothetical discussions last summer

at least rj has a motor but if he had Wiggins scoring ability he would be a star. and yeah I still wouldn’t touch that contract. that would suck if rj turned out the same way

[j4remi]

middleton was an all-star in 2019 and 2020, I don't think he needed to win the championship to get any credit as a good player

Who said people didn't think he was good? People didn't want to risk paying him.

well that's ultimately the issue at hand isn't it, do we want to risk paying RJ if he doesn't look like he has all-star potential after year 4? Because MIddleton actually was an all-star. Wiggins got the max bag and has never been an all-star, are we okay with that outcome

There are plenty of "good" players that I wouldn't want to pay. Middleton wasn't an all-star until he was 27 years old and 7 years into his career. But I was willing to take a risk on him because of his style of play and fit (way back when the triangle fit was a discussion...that's when I first started talking about Khris as a target and never let go, word to the Coli's search function).

Are we okay with max'ing RJ if he never makes the all-star game? I'd say maybe. If the Knicks are a top-5 seed again with RJ as a clear second option again...I'm willing to roll the dice on RJ continuing to improve for the length of that max contract which will end with him still being younger than Khris Middleton was before he made his first all-star team.

[3toheadmelo]

That's not really called for Melo, especially since I awarded you a giant gold star for backing Randle when almost everyone else did not.

Face it, Randle was a spinning turnover machine in his first year as a Knick. Yet I, along with pretty much everyone else here, highly value the changes he made to his game and Julius is almost universally loved by Knicks fans now.

So take your experience with Randle and apply it to RJ perhaps. Me saying people are being impatient sometimes with RJ is not petty, it's my observation. Take it at face value because I'm saying RJ has been on an upward trend his whole career and he keeps getting better at various facets of the game. If he's not your bag, that's fine, but he is not someone we should give up on.

im not saying to give up on him though and he’s an excellent role player. but I think it’s absolutely fair to discuss his expectations since we drafted him at #3. if we’re drafting someone that high the expectations for that player is that they will be a star at some point. and we aren’t really seeing those flashes. ill continue to be patient with him but that won’t stop me from talking about his limitations and what he needs to get better at. we have to face reality at some point.

Just some perspective then is what I think helps with all of that. Randle is entering his 8th season in the NBA and he only hit his stride in his 7th year. This is only RJ's third season and he's only 21.

yes but Randle averaged 20 PPG two years prior to last season. and i still have flashbacks of him destroying KP when he was on the Lakers

like I said I’m going to be patient with RJ. but I’ll still talk about what he needs to get better at.

[blumatic]

Last night was a bit worrisome for RJ. He seemed passive. Maybe because he was working on his passing. But it's his aggression that I most admired. He has to And he needs counter moves. He's too dedicated to his first move. He never pump fakes. Never jabs.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

RJ doesn’t need to take midrange pull-ups to be an effective player. Harden doesn’t take mid range shots at all and he is one of the greatest scorers of all time.

What RJ needs to do is take more pull up 3s, finish at the rim and draw fouls.

The lack of pull up 3s may be due to lack of ability or it may be due to design. Randle and Kemba are the only starters taking pull up 3s. Even Fournier who averaged three pull up 3s a game last year is shooting mostly off C&S.

Finishing is still the biggest concern, if RJ can’t get some wiggle at the rim or start drawing fouls it will really limit RJ’s ceiling as a player

That's why Harden hasn't won anything and someone like Kawhi has, the mid-range game is really what separates guys in the playoffs. Even Giannis was hitting some mid post jumpers in the finals, you gotta be able to do something in between the rim and 3 point line as a wing.

[god shammgod]

Not a max player. Not a legit 1st or 2nd option on a contender. Write it down if you like. I ain’t gonna be wrong lol

[BugginOut]

im not saying to give up on him though and he’s an excellent role player. but I think it’s absolutely fair to discuss his expectations since we drafted him at #3. if we’re drafting someone that high the expectations for that player is that they will be a star at some point. and we aren’t really seeing those flashes. ill continue to be patient with him but that won’t stop me from talking about his limitations and what he needs to get better at. we have to face reality at some point.

Just some perspective then is what I think helps with all of that. Randle is entering his 8th season in the NBA and he only hit his stride in his 7th year. This is only RJ's third season and he's only 21.

yes but Randle averaged 20 PPG two years prior to last season. and i still have flashbacks of him destroying KP when he was on the Lakers

like I said I’m going to be patient with RJ. but I’ll still talk about what he needs to get better at.

In Randle’s 3rd season he averaged 13 PPG on 54% TS%. And he was a year older than RJ is now.

RJ is still way ahead of schedule when it comes to his development. We just assume he should be better than he is because he plays a complete game at 21 years old

[robillionaire]

Who said people didn't think he was good? People didn't want to risk paying him.

well that's ultimately the issue at hand isn't it, do we want to risk paying RJ if he doesn't look like he has all-star potential after year 4? Because MIddleton actually was an all-star. Wiggins got the max bag and has never been an all-star, are we okay with that outcome

There are plenty of "good" players that I wouldn't want to pay. Middleton wasn't an all-star until he was 27 years old and 7 years into his career. But I was willing to take a risk on him because of his style of play and fit (way back when the triangle fit was a discussion...that's when I first started talking about Khris as a target and never let go, word to the Coli's search function).

Are we okay with max'ing RJ if he never makes the all-star game? I'd say maybe. If the Knicks are a top-5 seed again with RJ as a clear second option again...I'm willing to roll the dice on RJ continuing to improve for the length of that max contract which will end with him still being younger than Khris Middleton was before he made his first all-star team.

we'd pretty much have to pay him if the options were pay him the max or lose him for nothing, I agree I would also pay him, if could work out and he could keep improving and break out later on like Middleton/Randle etc. even though it could get ugly if he doesn't get any better than this and is making over 30M a season

it's more a dilemma of if we should consider using him in a trade for a proven star this year or next year before it gets to that point