PG System and Usage Angst again

[Tha Cynic]

Warriors' fan here:

Barnes is impressive. He moves well on D and he looks good on-ball. I spent most of 2013-2019 watching more of Milwaukee than Golden State because I was living on the east coast and had college/jobs to attend to that made PST games difficult to catch and I thought I might share this observation:

Giannis was very obviously the Bucks' most intriguing long-term option as the lead-ball handler in his rookie year. I spent lots of time on the Bucks' board in those days and we all complained at length about Brandon Knight monopolizing possessions as the lead ball-handler while Giannis was stuck in the corner.

A few years back, Larry Drew was quoted (and I am paraphrasing here) as saying that he wanted Giannis to eventually be the lead ball-handler, but he couldn't just give Giannis the keys to the offense at the age of 18 as the #15 pick.

I suspect there's something similar going on here with Barnes and FVV. Barnes probably needs to take the PG role by force and do so in a way that is so commanding that none of the vets can be pissed about it. Not sure what it will take from Barnes or Nurse to make that happen, but I hope it does. Barnes will be a hell of a player down the road.

Interesting. After the previous game against the Jazz I believe, I said the same thing after Barnes just grabbed the ball and did his thing, ignoring FVV and the dribble handoff offense. He played angry for about 2 to 3 plays in a row, like he was annoyed he wasn't getting the ball. It prompted me to think that Barnes will play well when he gets pissed at FVV, and breaks out of the passive rookie mold. Love the parallel with Giannis.

[Chandan]

Not sure how wide open 3s can be considered getting hot. These are professional basketball players

Because open/wide open threes are generated by EVERY team in the league numerous times EVERY game and we have enough data to support the claim that it is just hot shooting. Miami generates the least open/wide open 3FGA and they are averaging 25+ open threes per game. Some teams (like the Warriors) generate 35+ open threes per game and sometimes role players just get insanely hot (like Hayes+Bey+Jackson vs DET last week) and can't miss. That's exactly what happened tonight.

Wiggins+Poole+Porter came into this game averaging 4.9 3FGM on 15.1 open/wide open 3FGA which works out to about 32.5%. That is 15 games worth of sample size. Tonight they combined for 19/28 (68%) on ALL 3FGA. Even if they were all uncontested, they still shot more than twice as well as they usually would on open looks.

Open threes are created differently. There's something about raptors defense where chasing around the ball with wild close out that gives players confidence and gets them into the flow, and allows them to shoot in rhythm.

I've watched enough so far that when teams play the raptors, our defense get systematically broken down and the opposing teams know exactly when and where the threes opportunity are coming. There's no urgency in their shot. The whole mantra of letting them beat us from behind the three point lines didn't come from nowhere. The league has clearly adapted to it and it's no longer working especially against teams with good shooters.

[terryjackson]

FVV needs to be put off-ball and Scottie needs to start at PG. It'll be ugly for a couple of games but eventually it'll come together, the bad offense is partially on Fred.

He doesn't use the roller on his picks at all and he can't get into the lane. I'd like to see a Barnes and Siakam or Boucher pick and roll a few times each game. Trent and FVV could clear space for those two and if the opposing team sags off Boucher we could hope his shot returns.

There may be a game where Nurse should send a message and bench Fred for Boucher and put Barnes fully at the PG spot. FVV is best off being an off-ball player and defending the opposing guard.

If that line up showed any semblance of what I think it would, good pick and roll offense, with room for OG, Siakam, and Barnes in the mid post. I am immediately shipping Fred for a stretch C on the market. I would hope the Raptors consider KAT for Fred and the 2022 pick regardless of the supposed leadership he brings.

Talent is a huge need on this current squad, continuity is great but it can only do so much. The ceiling of the current roster doesn't look any higher than the Lowry-DeRozan Raptors.

[Chandan]

FVV needs to be put off-ball and Scottie needs to start at PG. It'll be ugly for a couple of games but eventually it'll come together, the bad offense is partially on Fred.

He doesn't use the roller on his picks at all and he can't get into the lane. I'd like to see a Barnes and Siakam or Boucher pick and roll a few times each game. Trent and FVV could clear space for those two and if the opposing team sags off Boucher we could hope his shot returns.

There may be a game where Nurse should send a message and bench Fred for Boucher and put Barnes fully at the PG spot. FVV is best off being an off-ball player and defending the opposing guard.

If that line up showed any semblance of what I think it would, good pick and roll offense, with room for OG, Siakam, and Barnes in the mid post. I am immediately shipping Fred for a stretch C on the market. I would hope the Raptors consider KAT for Fred and the 2022 pick regardless of the supposed leadership he brings.

Talent is a huge need on this current squad, continuity is great but it can only do so much. The ceiling of the current roster doesn't look any higher than the Lowry-DeRozan Raptors.

it might not be ugly for a couple of games, it might be ugly for whole year. But what choice do we have? There's no real benefits with sticking with fred running the point at this point in a development year.

[Kevin Willis]

Watch on YouTube

In terms of offense we can eventually run similar sets to the Bibby / Webber Sactown teams.

PF - Barnes - Webber
PG - FVV - Bibby
SG - Trent - D. Christie
SF - OG - Turkey

We don't have a playmaking Center unless you give Pascal that position. Both teams don't have great one on one offensive threats. Have the potential of passing forwards / C. Sac has better offensive IQ to make the right reads but this team will get it in time. Plus this team is a much better defending team. Both teams are tall outside of PG. Without a great passer or one on one guy or dominant scorer we can still run a competitive offense.

[knickerbocker2k2]

Open threes are created differently. There's something about raptors defense where chasing around the ball with wild close out that gives players confidence and gets them into the flow, and allows them to shoot in rhythm.

I've watched enough so far that when teams play the raptors, our defense get systematically broken down and the opposing teams know exactly when and where the threes opportunity are coming. There's no urgency in their shot. The whole mantra of letting them beat us from behind the three point lines didn't come from nowhere. The league has clearly adapted to it and it's no longer working especially against teams with good shooters.

Couldn't agree more with you. The book is out on Raptors D and I'm convinced the opposition only talking point in preparation is keep swinging the ball to the corner 3. For how selfish and stagnant our offense is, out D forces teams to play free flowing offense because they know how to beat the trap is making the simple pass. At this level you can't have defensive scheme that depends on professional players not making simple passes or making open J's.

[Mattatron]

Seems like a broken record really but 20 more FG attempts than the Warriors and still lose by 15.

That says a lot about the defense and also about the offense. We are so bad offensively that we can only win a game in which we constantly have ball possessions through steals and deflections to get enough throws so that we can win. Because this team is anything but efficient and Nurse knows that. But even that is not really enough. We have a big problem with scoring and ball movement. Raptors lack a PG, besides Scottie, and move Fred to SG, dunnow what to do with GTJ because he stinks as a bench player. I'm having a hard time with this roster construction. Over filled with forwards some with the same tools, some with more potential and some with a big ass contract and probably the weakest backcourt we've had in a decade.

[pingpongrac]

Not sure how wide open 3s can be considered getting hot. These are professional basketball players

Because open/wide open threes are generated by EVERY team in the league numerous times EVERY game and we have enough data to support the claim that it is just hot shooting. Miami generates the least open/wide open 3FGA and they are averaging 25+ open threes per game. Some teams (like the Warriors) generate 35+ open threes per game and sometimes role players just get insanely hot (like Hayes+Bey+Jackson vs DET last week) and can't miss. That's exactly what happened tonight.

Wiggins+Poole+Porter came into this game averaging 4.9 3FGM on 15.1 open/wide open 3FGA which works out to about 32.5%. That is 15 games worth of sample size. Tonight they combined for 19/28 (68%) on ALL 3FGA. Even if they were all uncontested, they still shot more than twice as well as they usually would on open looks.

Open threes are created differently. There's something about raptors defense where chasing around the ball with wild close out that gives players confidence and gets them into the flow, and allows them to shoot in rhythm.

I've watched enough so far that when teams play the raptors, our defense get systematically broken down and the opposing teams know exactly when and where the threes opportunity are coming. There's no urgency in their shot. The whole mantra of letting them beat us from behind the three point lines didn't come from nowhere. The league has clearly adapted to it and it's no longer working especially against teams with good shooters.

I would agree with you somewhat if we were getting beat by good shooters, but Wiggins (32% this season, 34% career) and Poole (30% this season, 31% career) are hardly good shooters. When those two combine for 65 points and hit 14 of 19 threes, all you can do is tip your cap to them. Poole just had the best shooting game of his career thus far and Wiggins had his best shooting game of the season.

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[fbalmeida]

Malachi Flynn still hasn't gotten laid.

The Dubs' defense... they can protect the rim and the perimeter without 7-footers. But of course I know why we can't have that: guys like Barnes, Dalano, and Precious are just too young. And guys like Siakam, Boucher, and even Birch have been just terrible, at times, at executing the defensive rotations.

Barnes specifically, has much to learn, it should be said.

But the Dubs' offense is entirely predicated on very fast movement of the ball... and players. Why can't we have that? How difficult is it, really, to offset lack of iso rim attacking with some slick ball movement?

It's like... how about... do everything but stand still without the ball, and don't just let the ball handler sink or swim with the clock running down. How difficult is it really? Surely the best way to have movement on offense is to.... move.

At any rate, you can tell from the Dubs body language that the Warriors are playing with a purpose this season. Jordan Poole is amazing.

[DonDoolie]

Why are there 5 players on the court if Fred and pascal just pass back and forth to eachother and completely ice everyone else out of the game. How is nurse ok with this garbage.

[junot111]

I don't care about the offense because the only real way to solve that is by acquiring star talent. But I've been very disappointed watching this team's defense. This is not at all like the scrappy and innovative defensive team that we're used to seeing in the past 2-3 seasons under Nick Nurse.

So many blown assignments, wide open 3's, undisciplined flying close outs, and zero communication leading to two help defenders running to the same player time and time again.

And holy sh*t the game threads have become unbearable with every other post complaining about Scottie needing more touches

[tanuki1031]

This wasn't a big sequence in the game but I swear once a game Precious will try to go coast to coast dribbling through (not past!) 9 guys with the full blinders on.

Then other times he'll trigger the fast break by passing it to Boucher or Birch, has to be someone who can't dribble.

[mrdressup]

This team is simply not prepared to do enough on offense to change its ways. Nurse and Fred are serving stale crackers with cold soup. We waste scoring opportunities religiously by producing stagnant go-nowhere possessions and deferring to the "shimmy and shake" game currently championed by "go get me a bucket" coaching and PG play. It literally has nothing to go with but the simplest of actions that too quickly lead to shooting heroics trying to save the day. More often than not I feel we are simply out there hoping a guy can "figure it out" and get it going. In other words, we are still hoping to proverbially collectively wake from a coma.

The decision makers on this team are refusing to implement the talents of a new type of younger pass first player that is instead being asked to stand on the three point line and wait his individual turn to take on the set defenses in front of him or be a junk man. Barnes doesn't have to be a scoring threat whatsoever at this point in his career, but we badly need his vision and creativity injected into the offensive flow with a lot of touches. The guy should be moving and passing the ball in a flowing offense. That must be nurtured and put to use without fearing turn overs.

At this point I think it would be best to separate Barnes from Fred. The future may as well start playing as a bench unit that can at least operate within its own joyful parameters. Watching the demeanor of our depressed and stoic starters trying to find themselves is bad enough. Trying to develop from within that is asking too much from Barnes.

[OAKLEY_2]

FVV needs to be put off-ball and Scottie needs to start at PG. It'll be ugly for a couple of games but eventually it'll come together, the bad offense is partially on Fred.

He doesn't use the roller on his picks at all and he can't get into the lane. I'd like to see a Barnes and Siakam or Boucher pick and roll a few times each game. Trent and FVV could clear space for those two and if the opposing team sags off Boucher we could hope his shot returns.

There may be a game where Nurse should send a message and bench Fred for Boucher and put Barnes fully at the PG spot. FVV is best off being an off-ball player and defending the opposing guard.

If that line up showed any semblance of what I think it would, good pick and roll offense, with room for OG, Siakam, and Barnes in the mid post. I am immediately shipping Fred for a stretch C on d acottie. the market. I would hope the Raptors
consider KAT for Fred and the 2022 pick regardless of the supposed leadership he brings.

Talent is a huge need on this current squad, continuity is great but it can only do so much. Ying slowed down.LSO playing slowThe ceiling of the current roster doesn't look any higher than the Lowry-DeRozan Raptors.

Do not agree with Scottie at the point. Banton is better at the point than Scottie and Fred is too. Scottie is a small forward and shooting guard who is getting wasted as facilitator. He is also playing the game slowed down.

[Kingsway_fan]

Seems like a broken record really but 20 more FG attempts than the Warriors and still lose by 15.

Did you check field goal percentage for our starting backcourt?... thats why... low percentage chuckers...

[Kingsway_fan]

Barnes needs to be assertive from the very beginning. I'm waiting for him to have his moment and then take over from there on.

It's hard when your pg has the ball in his hands so often and for so long, and is usually looking for HIS SHOT.

[Kingsway_fan]

Saw and predicted this issue in the summer. We need Barnes to run Point for him to develop. Barnes development should be priority #1

Not happening with Fred running point and nurse giving him the green light to chuck 18 shots a game...

[Kingsway_fan]

It seems Precious is more effective coming off the bench so I’m glad we made that switch. He’s been solid recently. Good to see

Trent needs to be moved to second unit when og is back.... there is only one ball.... Fred's minutes need to be scaled back...ffs, nurse.

[First Step]

Why doesn't anyone in the post-game presser ever question Nick about his overaggressive defensive schemes

They have. Nurse said getting burned gambling is an externality of playing aggressive defense.

[Sandman88]

How does a team that was 6-3 and playing amazing defense suddenly fall off a cliff defensively? Our defense was so sound and tight and now it's one of the worst in the league. Like what changed?

Something spicy happened