Who Would You Rather Have: Alperen Sengun or Chet Holmgren?

[70sFan]

Sengun, he's way cooler.

[lilswift01]

It's harder to play with great players. A lot of players can look good if the team is built around them. It will be interesting to see these 2 guys develop. Right now i prefer Chet skillset because he showed me he can impact on both ends but i wouldn't be surprised if Sengun ends up better because he is really talented.

[Vampirate]

Sengun is a whole tier above Chet.

Chet is amazing, but even a bonabide scrub C would look amazing playing with SGA, Williams and Giddey.

Chet basically gets to play pressure free risk free basketball. What he does doesn't matter that much. Sure he contributes to winning.

Sengun plays as the number one option. If he doesn't play well, his team doesn't win.

This is a seismic gap in responsibility. If one doesn't understand this, they would be inclined to vote for Chet

Counter argument.

Then why isn't Giddey amazing playing alongside SGA, Williams and Chet?

The truth is Chet's unique skill set fits into basically any team, even if he's not the #1 or even the #2 option.

If Sengun though gets a three point shot, i'd choose him, but right now it's Chet.

[CptCrunch]

Sengun is a whole tier above Chet.

Chet is amazing, but even a bonabide scrub C would look amazing playing with SGA, Williams and Giddey.

Chet basically gets to play pressure free risk free basketball. What he does doesn't matter that much. Sure he contributes to winning.

Sengun plays as the number one option. If he doesn't play well, his team doesn't win.

This is a seismic gap in responsibility. If one doesn't understand this, they would be inclined to vote for Chet

Counter argument.

Then why isn't Giddey amazing playing alongside SGA, Williams and Chet?

The truth is Chet's unique skill set fits into basically any team, even if he's not the #1 or even the #2 option.

If Sengun though gets a three point shot, i'd choose him, but right now it's Chet.

Giddey is amazing. He was a 17/8/6 player as a second year..in case you forgot, his season is getting wrecked by his off court issues which I remind you currently involves an open police investigation involving statutory sex crimes with minors.

I'm gonna guess that dark cloud is going to ruin every aspect of your work life

[Vampirate]

Sengun is a whole tier above Chet.

Chet is amazing, but even a bonabide scrub C would look amazing playing with SGA, Williams and Giddey.

Chet basically gets to play pressure free risk free basketball. What he does doesn't matter that much. Sure he contributes to winning.

Sengun plays as the number one option. If he doesn't play well, his team doesn't win.

This is a seismic gap in responsibility. If one doesn't understand this, they would be inclined to vote for Chet

Counter argument.

Then why isn't Giddey amazing playing alongside SGA, Williams and Chet?

The truth is Chet's unique skill set fits into basically any team, even if he's not the #1 or even the #2 option.

If Sengun though gets a three point shot, i'd choose him, but right now it's Chet.

Giddey is amazing. He was a 17/8/6 player as a second year..in case you forgot, his season is getting wrecked by his off court issues which I remind you currently involves an open police investigation involving statutory sex crimes with minors.

I'm gonna guess that dark cloud is going to ruin every aspect of your work life

Giddey cannot get to the FT line enough, this has been a staple of his ever since his rookie year.

He basically has the worse Free Throw rate in the league as a starter most likely.

This is a bad take of yours.

Giddey last year had a 53.3%TS due to him not being able to get to the FT line, he has a 52.3% TS this year, so he's marginally worse.

There's just no way you can say someone is putting up 55/40/81 and put it all on his teammates as to the reason behind his success.

If this were the case than shouldn't players in LAL be putting up much better percentages than they are now?

It's the same reason you can't just explain Giddey's awful FT rate, because he was always bad at getting to the line.

[wegotthabeet]

Much easier to build around Chet. He’s an impact player at both ends. Sengun is nice but he’s isn’t Jokic.

[CptCrunch]

Since you guys rate Chet so high.

Tell me this. If you downgrade SGA to a league average starting PG with overall neutral value like a Brogdan or FVV, and then make Chet your franchise player.

Do you still believe OKC would be as good as they are? Because based on what has been argued, it is a strong yes here. Chet is some general boogey monster out to change the course of the game. The even delusional takes were the ones in the other thread rating him over Wemby; I'm glad that some have come to their senses after more recent Wemby games.

[SeattleJazzFan]

Since you guys rate Chet so high.

Tell me this. If you downgrade SGA to an a league average starting PG with overall neutral value like a Brogdan or FVV, and then make Chet your franchise player.

Do you still believe OKC would be as good as they are? Because based on what has been argued, it is a strong yes here. Chet is some general boogey monster out to change the course of the game. The even delusional takes were the ones in the other thread rating him over Wemby; I'm glad that some have come to their senses after more recent Wemby games.

iow, sga goes from mvp caliber to average, everybody else stays the same and you're asking of OKC is as good as they are? i'm going with no. seems obvious, but hey, you asked, i answered.

[NBA4Lyfe]

i live in houston, and as great as sengun has been, i still dont think that sengun is the type of big that ime udoka fancies. Udoka would much rather a rob williams/clint capela type. I mean as great as damontis sabonis and david lee were( both mulitple time all-stars) both have been traded numerous times when they were young players

I think udoka would prefer holmgren over sengun easily

[SpreeS]

Chet is better or will be better next season than all these bigs

Banchero
Wemby
Sengun

[Gusto1903]

Chet is better or will be better next season than all these bigs

Banchero
Wemby
Sengun

i doubt 2 out of 3 of those.

[Sane]

i live in houston, and as great as sengun has been, i still dont think that sengun is the type of big that ime udoka fancies. Udoka would much rather a rob williams/clint capela type. I mean as great as damontis sabonis and david lee were( both mulitple time all-stars) both have been traded numerous times when they were young players

I think udoka would prefer holmgren over sengun easily

This is false of course. Udoka has called him a clear star and loves this dude. He has been able to build a (when healthy) top 5 defense with Sengun starting at C. Are you going to downgrade two tiers offensively from Sengun to Chet so you can move from 5th best defense to 3rd or something? Of course not. Sengun is the SGA of his overachieving team.

If you swap Chet and Sengun right now, the Rockets should drop like 10 spots in offensive ranking. If we were 15th we would become 25th easily. Chet is not making that difference up on defense.

Also the C that Udoka wanted to pair/compete with Sengun was Brook Lopez. The one we ended up signing was Landale. Nothing like Capela or Rob Williams.

You're still lagging behind the real time information. Domantas Sabonis has never started at C for a top 5 defensive team and his teams have been desperate for him to be able to do that. He's only an offensive comp for Sengun, not an overall comp. If Domantas Sabonis could play defense as well as Sengun, he would be almost as good as Jokic. Sengun and Sabonis are only comparable offensively, which is half of their games. Defense is half the game. In Sengun you have something like an almost-Sabonis offensively and a Wendell Carter Jr defensively. That's a higher tier, and that's why the Rockets are on pace to win 41 instead of the 25-30 they were projected to win with the offseason signings.

I think the truth is, you prefer Williams/Capela types over Sengun types. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Gary Cokeman]

senguns ceiling is damontas sabonis, neither are great defenders which makes them easily exploitable againist pick and roll guards.

Holgrem is more of a modern big, give me him 10/10 over sengun

Lol have you ever actually seen Sengun play? He's 21 and already better than any version of Sabonis but thats his ceiling?

He’s better then any version of a 3X all star who made an all nba team last year

Yes.

[Wagonband]

I'm not sure... What i'm quite sure about is that it's clear one way or the other. It's either OBVIOUSLY Sengun or OBVIOUSLY Chet. Nothing inbetween

[El Turco]

Sengun is my favorite player but Chet is probably more valuable for most teams. You cant teach that type of height and that kind of defensive instincts.

Sengun is a better option if you are looking for a player to build around, but whether he is going to be a type of player who can be the top option on a championship contender remains to be seen.

[Kiss of Death]

People saying that it’s much easier to build around Chet.

Then OKC should trade SGA and build around Chet, then, right?

Yeah that’s what I thought.

Here’s the real question:
Who would you rather have as your team’s BEST PLAYER for the next decade?
Sengun, who is already the main guy on his team
Or
Chet, who is basically just a high end role player at this point.

[MMyhre]

People saying that it’s much easier to build around Chet.

Then OKC should trade SGA and build around Chet, then, right?

Yeah that’s what I thought.

Here’s the real question:
Who would you rather have as your team’s BEST PLAYER for the next decade?
Sengun, who is already the main guy on his team
Or
Chet, who is basically just a high end role player at this point.

Why the heck would you trade away an MVP level player just because you have an amazing rookie as well? Do you really think Houston would trade away Harden if they drafted Sengun and he was good? Why didn`t the Lakers trade away Kareem when they drafted Magic Johnson because you only need to build around one player and have less talent overall, and like almost every championship is won with 2+ stars as well.

Sengun would have less stats playing with SGA, Jalen and a better team/system as well, doesn`t mean that he isn`t a good player or has a future as a star, it`s called team basketball. There is only one ball and SGA is further ahead in his development than all these guys, doesn`t mean Jalen and Chet can`t become as good as he is in the future and take more responsibility. They are already doing AMAZING for being in their 1st and 2nd playing seasons as 2rd/3rd options with efficiency that is NOT normal to have as 1 young players or 2 "role players", which shows they are already more than role players and already has potential far beyond being role players, as that is just your way of downplaying threats to your subjective opinions on your favorite player.

Chet Holmgren, 21 years old, in just THIRTY SEVEN games in his ROOKIE season, is top 20 or better in PER, WS, WS/48, TS %, BPM, VORP and he is the biggest difference/addition to a team that just won 48 % of their games last year and are now on pace for 70 % (and honestly more because they are getting BETTER), so a 22 % improvement in team wins as well. He is 7-1, 7-6 ft wingspan with great mobility, handles, shooting range/touch, shows flashes of playmaking, great team player, team defender, hard working, CLUTCH/KILLER mindset on both the defensive and offensive end in late game situations, great conditioning, good free throw shooter/3pt shooter and a pretty diverse array of offensive moves in his bag... and you think this guy is going to be a high end role player? Do you really believe this ****? Because what the advanced stats tell us, is that this guy is already a star. In 37 games. In his rookie season. at 21 years old. With a crazy combination of skill, length and mobility in a team that is YOUNG, dangerous and ready to make big leaps with a good coach/system.

EVEN IF, he somehow didn`t develop as much as possible, which I doubt, there is no **** way a guy with this much impact this early and this young in his career ends up as a role player.

Here are 2 rookies as an example of how growth isnt always linear and guaranteed -
Age 21 SG 6-4 ft/6-11 wingspan 42-40 team record(in the easier eastern conference) 3rd option in his team
34,9 mins, 16,2 pts, 13,1 fga/46,5 fg %, 0,9 3pa/30,2 3pt fg %, 5,1 fta/74,7 ft %, 4,5 ast/3,3 to, 4 reb, 1,4 stls, 0,6 blks
17,6 PER, 53 % TS, 4,6 WS, ,103 WS/48, 1,4 BPM and 1,9 VORP.

Age 19 SF 6-8ft/7 wingspan 43-39 team record (in the tougher western conference) 1st option in his team
36,5 mins, 21 pts, 17,9 fga/42,6 fg %, 2,6 3pa/32,2 3pt fg %, 6,4 fta/77,7 ft %, 6,1 reb, 2,8 ast/3 to, 1,2 stl, 0,5 blk,
17,6 PER, 50,9 TS %, 6,1 WS, .098 WS/48, 0,1 BPM and 1,6 VORP.

Wow the 2nd rookie is younger (by 2 years and 5 months too), is the leading scorer of his team (obviously that means he is just the best player, you have the load you are the one there are no other aspects to basketball whatsoever, points and load baby(thats what I said)) with a better record, is a better 3pt shooter, on more volume, gets to the line more and shoots a better %, more win shares and comparable defensive stats, a bit worse of a playmaker but no big deal, has less length per height but longer overall... he will surely be the way, WAY superior player in the future, right? Imagine if this was Sengun, Paolo and Wemby compared to Chet, they are younger by a lot, the 1st option on a team with a better record, they are easily going to be better by this nonchalant "logic", right?

Well, the 1st player won a ring as the by far best player in his team in his 3rd year and had peaks of 30,2 pts, 7,5 ast/3,4 to, 5 reb, 2,2 stl, 1,3 blocks on 57,4 ts % in the regular season with advanced stats like 10.6 BPM, 9.6. VORP, 14.7 WS, 30,4 PER.
Playoffs = 28,4 pts, 5,9 reb, 5,7 ast/3,9 to, 2,2 stl, 1,1 blk 0,6 3ptm, 10,9 fta on 59,3 TS %, 9,3 BPM, 2,7 VORP, ,240 WS/48, 26,9 PER and the ring with huge clutchness and one of the better finals performances of all time in 23 games. Played 10+ games in the playoffs 8 times (5x 20 games) despite an injury ridden/longevity issues in career.

2nd player never got close to winning a ring despite playing for a better team earlier in his career and being the 1st option, peaking at 27,4 pts, 8,1 reb, 3,1 ast/2,6 to, 1,2 stl, 0,7 blk on 56,1 ts % on a mediocre team in the regular season with advanced stats like 24,4 PER, 5 BPM (averaged like 3 to 2 in his career btw), 5.3 VORP, 10.7 WS (much lower on average here as well).
Playoffs: 27,2 pts, 5,8 reb, 4,1 ast/2,3 to, 1,8 stl, 0,6 blk, 1,5 3pm, 9fta on 56,4 ts %, 5 BPM, 1,1 VORP, ,201 WS/48, 24,3 PER in 16 games. Played 10+ games two times in the playoffs.

For fun, they both had the best player on non-contender team performance against the Boston Celtics within 1 year of each other in the playoffs :

1st player : 33,2 pts, 6,8 ast/5,2 to, 5,6 reb, 1,6 stl, 1,6 blk, 3 3pm, 8fta on 65 % ts %, 13,5 bpm, 0,8 VORP, ,229 WS/48, 29,4 PER in 5 games. Against the best defense in the league that went to the finals game 7. Clearly this player was potentially the best player in the world with a better team.

2nd player: 26 pts, 10,3 reb, 4,8 ast/3,3 to, 1,3 stl, 0,8 blk, 2,3 3pm, 8,5 ftm on 50,5 ts %, 6,6 bpm, 0,3 VORP, ,149 WS/48, 22,5 PER in 4 games. Solid player, but not of the same calibre of player and his game does not translate to winning TEAM - basketball games. One of the reasons one has to look beyond stats and volume to determine if someone is a contributor to winning TEAM basketball games. Bill Russell, Bill Walton, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett etc didn`t always have the biggest scoring numbers, but you better be damned sure they helped win more basketball games than players like Monta Ellis, Antoine Walker, Pistol Pete, Allen Iverson etc.

This is Dwyane Wade and Carmelo Anthony. Goes to show that you cant just say that the younger player with more responsibility and especially focus on just volume/"better" stats early in their careers is guaranteed to be going to be the superior player no matter what. There is context to everything, and Melo was obviously 1 not a team player/selfish 2 didnt bother with defense 3 didnt have the killer instinct of Wade and 4 didnt have a growth mindset/self awareness++. Wade hit game winners in the playoffs in his rookie season and RAISED his game already there, comparable to how Chet has hit tough late game shots/blocks already... clutch/"HIM" genes that Melo didnt have... INTANGIBLES MATTER... A LOT. Mentality, growth mindset, teamplay, DEFENSE...

Being confident in your own ability BUT self aware/understanding the team game, and being willing to grow your team and yourself, trying to win basketball games not chase stats so that you look better, because you have to look good and be the best, not actually winning the game and doing everything in your power to make the TEAM better, giving your TEAM a better chance at winning basketball games. This is one of the reasons Bill Russell won more than Wilt Chamberlain. And guess what, Chet is much better at the offensive end than Bill Russell, so he also has that going for him even if the defensive isn`t going to be as good (maybe it will?! who the fk knows). Stats and your own offensive share/load doesnt mean **** if you aint helping your TEAM win games by 1 making your teammates better on both ends 2 playing hard and impacting on both ends and 3 taking responsibility when it matters the most ++.

Now, Chet Holmgren has superior length/skillsets to both these guys and all the comparable prospects, except Wemby on the length, and much better advanced stats and age compared to Wemby, Sengun and Paolo, than Wade had to Melo, and is already contributing much more to winning and showing clutchness/killer instincts and great team play/intangibles... There is more to basketball than shot attempts and offensive load/usage.

You would be wise to think twice about downplaying Chet Holmgrens future, I think the sky is the limit for this guy, and this OKC team as well.

*Edited my post, idk why I was so aggressive lol.

[Kiss of Death]

So, to recap:

Chet is so much easier to build around!

Ok. Then do it.

Noooo. That would be a terrible idea!

[lethalizer]

Head to head matchup:

Sengun:
21 pts
6 reb
7 ast
1 stl
2 blk
8/13 FG
+/- +12

Chet:
4 pts
5 rbs
2 ast
1 stl
6 blk
2/9
+/- -16

Houston win 110-101.

Head to head matchup vol.2:

Sengun:
19 pts
12 reb
2 ast
1 stl
1 blk
6/12 FG


Chet:
29 pts
8 reb
7 ast
1 stl
3 blk
11/16 FG

19 points in the 4th quarter.

Single game sample sizes are beautiful, don't you think?

[Rust_Cohle]

Chet is better or will be better next season than all these bigs

Banchero
Wemby
Sengun

LMAO, wemby has pulled out well ahead this year already, is at a scarier trajectory than Chet