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G35 wrote:This is why the whole "modern players are more skilled" debate is a misnomer...we can't even agree on the rules. We are playing two different games now....
thinktank wrote:theforumblue wrote:thinktank wrote:The new one is allowing players to establish a new pivot foot.
They call it the “step through”.
Don’t tell me that was legal the whole time. It wasn’t. Before you had to jump off both your pivot foot and your non-pivot foot at the same time—a two footed leap. Now you can just lift up your pivot foot entirely and jump 100% off your non-pivot foot. Looks cool, but it’s a travel.
this was the rule the whole time, it's the old days that actually misinterpreted the rule.
Yes, I understand that.
When enforcement of the rule changes that is effectively a rule change.
It used to be called a travel (lifting up the pivot foot—refs would physically illustrate it). Now it is no longer called a travel—just recently.
If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.
Art. 5. After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before
the ball is released on a pass or try for goal
thinktank wrote:theforumblue wrote:thinktank wrote:The new one is allowing players to establish a new pivot foot.
They call it the “step through”.
Don’t tell me that was legal the whole time. It wasn’t. Before you had to jump off both your pivot foot and your non-pivot foot at the same time—a two footed leap. Now you can just lift up your pivot foot entirely and jump 100% off your non-pivot foot. Looks cool, but it’s a travel.
this was the rule the whole time, it's the old days that actually misinterpreted the rule.
Yes, I understand that.
When enforcement of the rule changes that is effectively a rule change.
It used to be called a travel (lifting up the pivot foot—refs would physically illustrate it). Now it is no longer called a travel—just recently.
. feels like cheating.
Mephariel wrote:G35 wrote:This is why the whole "modern players are more skilled" debate is a misnomer...we can't even agree on the rules. We are playing two different games now....
Modern day players are more skilled. You don't need to debate traveling rules to see that.
ellobo wrote:thinktank wrote:theforumblue wrote:
this was the rule the whole time, it's the old days that actually misinterpreted the rule.
Yes, I understand that.
When enforcement of the rule changes that is effectively a rule change.
It used to be called a travel (lifting up the pivot foot—refs would physically illustrate it). Now it is no longer called a travel—just recently.
But it's not a change in enforcement.
Here's a video of Kareem doing no-dribble sky hooks where he steps onto the non-pivot foot lifts his pivot foot, swinging the pivot foot leg in the air, before shooting. It's not a step through, but it is lifting the pivot foot entirely and jumping 100% off the non-pivot foot:
Here's a referee training video from the Ohio State High School Athletic Association. See the case at 4:53 in the video (4.44.3 Situation C). You can step onto your non-pivot foot, lift your pivot foot and stand there like a flamingo on your non-pivot foot as long as you shoot or pass before the pivot foot touches the ground again.
Here's a FIBA video explaining the rule:
Granted, over the years a lot of PLAYERS misunderstood the rule, so it hadn't been used in the past as much as it could have, although it's always been a more common move in women's basketball. Since it wasn't widely used, I think a lot of refs did mistakenly call it a violation just because they weren't used to seeing it (or because they were just bad refs). I think a lot of players have recently realized how they can use stepping onto the non-pivot foot and it's popularity has increased recently. Luka and Brunson are great at it.
BTW, here's the exact wording of the relevant rule:
From the NBA rule book, Rule 10, Section XIII, Part d:If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.
From the NCAA rule book, Rule 9, Sections 5, Article 5:Art. 5. After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before
the ball is released on a pass or try for goal
Notice that the rules don't say anything about what you can or can't do with the non-pivot foot. The only restriction is that once you lift the pivot foot, you have to shoot or pass before it touches the floor again. To initiate a dribble, the rule is different -- you do have to release the ball to initiate the dribble before lifting the pivot foot.
KyletheDingbat wrote:ellobo wrote:thinktank wrote:
Yes, I understand that.
When enforcement of the rule changes that is effectively a rule change.
It used to be called a travel (lifting up the pivot foot—refs would physically illustrate it). Now it is no longer called a travel—just recently.
But it's not a change in enforcement.
Here's a video of Kareem doing no-dribble sky hooks where he steps onto the non-pivot foot lifts his pivot foot, swinging the pivot foot leg in the air, before shooting. It's not a step through, but it is lifting the pivot foot entirely and jumping 100% off the non-pivot foot:
Here's a referee training video from the Ohio State High School Athletic Association. See the case at 4:53 in the video (4.44.3 Situation C). You can step onto your non-pivot foot, lift your pivot foot and stand there like a flamingo on your non-pivot foot as long as you shoot or pass before the pivot foot touches the ground again.
Here's a FIBA video explaining the rule:
Granted, over the years a lot of PLAYERS misunderstood the rule, so it hadn't been used in the past as much as it could have, although it's always been a more common move in women's basketball. Since it wasn't widely used, I think a lot of refs did mistakenly call it a violation just because they weren't used to seeing it (or because they were just bad refs). I think a lot of players have recently realized how they can use stepping onto the non-pivot foot and it's popularity has increased recently. Luka and Brunson are great at it.
BTW, here's the exact wording of the relevant rule:
From the NBA rule book, Rule 10, Section XIII, Part d:If a player, with the ball in his possession, raises his pivot foot off the floor, he must pass or shoot before his pivot foot returns to the floor. If he drops the ball while in the air, he may not be the first to touch the ball.
From the NCAA rule book, Rule 9, Sections 5, Article 5:Art. 5. After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before
the ball is released on a pass or try for goal
Notice that the rules don't say anything about what you can or can't do with the non-pivot foot. The only restriction is that once you lift the pivot foot, you have to shoot or pass before it touches the floor again. To initiate a dribble, the rule is different -- you do have to release the ball to initiate the dribble before lifting the pivot foot.
You guys are both right. What Kareem is doing in those videos is lifting his pivot to shoot, like you said. But thinktank is also right, those step through moves were 100% travels until recently. Not just in the NBA but in all levels - I knew not to do those. When Jordan would rock somebody in the post and turn around to do his lean-in jumper, he jumped off both feet at once. If step throughs were legal back then he would have done them. So the rule has definitely changed - whether it's the letter or interpretation or enforcement.
When I was playing HS ball though the old heads would constantly complain about the youngsters traveling too. And they were right back then as well hahaha, but the way they wanted us to play was lame. The game keeps evolving.
KyletheDingbat wrote:
When I was playing HS ball though the old heads would constantly complain about the youngsters traveling too. And they were right back then as well hahaha, but the way they wanted us to play was lame. The game keeps evolving.
KyletheDingbat wrote:Spoiler:
You guys are both right. What Kareem is doing in those videos is lifting his pivot to shoot, like you said. But thinktank is also right, those step through moves were 100% travels until recently. Not just in the NBA but in all levels - I knew not to do those. When Jordan would rock somebody in the post and turn around to do his lean-in jumper, he jumped off both feet at once. If step throughs were legal back then he would have done them. So the rule has definitely changed - whether it's the letter or interpretation or enforcement.
When I was playing HS ball though the old heads would constantly complain about the youngsters traveling too. And they were right back then as well hahaha, but the way they wanted us to play was lame. The game keeps evolving.
G35 wrote:KyletheDingbat wrote:
When I was playing HS ball though the old heads would constantly complain about the youngsters traveling too. And they were right back then as well hahaha, but the way they wanted us to play was lame. The game keeps evolving.
That is the thing, its not that the players couldn't do the same moves as they are doing now, its it was not allowed, it was not enforced the same.
I think people on here must not have ever played pickup basketball or where people called their own fouls. This "interpretation" would not fly. Palming, carrying, double dribble, traveling are all really in the eyes of the beholder nowadays.....
thinktank wrote:G35 wrote:KyletheDingbat wrote:
When I was playing HS ball though the old heads would constantly complain about the youngsters traveling too. And they were right back then as well hahaha, but the way they wanted us to play was lame. The game keeps evolving.
That is the thing, its not that the players couldn't do the same moves as they are doing now, its it was not allowed, it was not enforced the same.
I think people on here must not have ever played pickup basketball or where people called their own fouls. This "interpretation" would not fly. Palming, carrying, double dribble, traveling are all really in the eyes of the beholder nowadays.....
Agreed.
We can cherry pick videos and stars who got away with it.
What we’re seeing now is volume of guys lifting the pivot foot go up by many, many, many times.
And that’s due to enforcement.
Lockdown504090 wrote:KyletheDingbat wrote:ellobo wrote:
But it's not a change in enforcement.
Here's a video of Kareem doing no-dribble sky hooks where he steps onto the non-pivot foot lifts his pivot foot, swinging the pivot foot leg in the air, before shooting. It's not a step through, but it is lifting the pivot foot entirely and jumping 100% off the non-pivot foot:
Here's a referee training video from the Ohio State High School Athletic Association. See the case at 4:53 in the video (4.44.3 Situation C). You can step onto your non-pivot foot, lift your pivot foot and stand there like a flamingo on your non-pivot foot as long as you shoot or pass before the pivot foot touches the ground again.
Here's a FIBA video explaining the rule:
Granted, over the years a lot of PLAYERS misunderstood the rule, so it hadn't been used in the past as much as it could have, although it's always been a more common move in women's basketball. Since it wasn't widely used, I think a lot of refs did mistakenly call it a violation just because they weren't used to seeing it (or because they were just bad refs). I think a lot of players have recently realized how they can use stepping onto the non-pivot foot and it's popularity has increased recently. Luka and Brunson are great at it.
BTW, here's the exact wording of the relevant rule:
From the NBA rule book, Rule 10, Section XIII, Part d:
From the NCAA rule book, Rule 9, Sections 5, Article 5:
Notice that the rules don't say anything about what you can or can't do with the non-pivot foot. The only restriction is that once you lift the pivot foot, you have to shoot or pass before it touches the floor again. To initiate a dribble, the rule is different -- you do have to release the ball to initiate the dribble before lifting the pivot foot.
You guys are both right. What Kareem is doing in those videos is lifting his pivot to shoot, like you said. But thinktank is also right, those step through moves were 100% travels until recently. Not just in the NBA but in all levels - I knew not to do those. When Jordan would rock somebody in the post and turn around to do his lean-in jumper, he jumped off both feet at once. If step throughs were legal back then he would have done them. So the rule has definitely changed - whether it's the letter or interpretation or enforcement.
When I was playing HS ball though the old heads would constantly complain about the youngsters traveling too. And they were right back then as well hahaha, but the way they wanted us to play was lame. The game keeps evolving.
?s=46&t=X9mumPGLsRqqzpaDgtqZBg
?s=46&t=X9mumPGLsRqqzpaDgtqZBg
Is literally never been a travel to step through on your non pivot. This guys whole twitter is dedicated to penetrating the thickness of skulls. Women have been doing this for 30 years straight and nobody gets it.
https://youtu.be/Fs_5ip5kutg?si=1Cb_3sPv5nyA1nBP
You are just straight up wrong on this one.
ellobo wrote:KyletheDingbat wrote:Spoiler:
You guys are both right. What Kareem is doing in those videos is lifting his pivot to shoot, like you said. But thinktank is also right, those step through moves were 100% travels until recently. Not just in the NBA but in all levels - I knew not to do those. When Jordan would rock somebody in the post and turn around to do his lean-in jumper, he jumped off both feet at once. If step throughs were legal back then he would have done them. So the rule has definitely changed - whether it's the letter or interpretation or enforcement.
When I was playing HS ball though the old heads would constantly complain about the youngsters traveling too. And they were right back then as well hahaha, but the way they wanted us to play was lame. The game keeps evolving.
No question it's become more popular and accepted recently. But saying "if step throughs were legal back then he would have done them" is like saying "If people knew that three was more than two back then, they would have shot more threes." It seems obvious once people wake up to the fact that they haven't been exploiting an aspect of the game like they could have. But until people started doing it and having success, and other people saw it being done, it was a long time before they woke up.
In the women's game, stepping onto the non-pivot foot has long been a common and commonly accepted move that no one ever considered a travel. I don't think it's accurate to conclude that just because it wasn't done in the men's game, that it wasn't always legal, especially because the actual rule has always been the same.
ellobo wrote:thinktank wrote:G35 wrote:
That is the thing, its not that the players couldn't do the same moves as they are doing now, its it was not allowed, it was not enforced the same.
I think people on here must not have ever played pickup basketball or where people called their own fouls. This "interpretation" would not fly. Palming, carrying, double dribble, traveling are all really in the eyes of the beholder nowadays.....
Agreed.
We can cherry pick videos and stars who got away with it.
What we’re seeing now is volume of guys lifting the pivot foot go up by many, many, many times.
And that’s due to enforcement.
But how did people "get away" with something that was always legal? There's nothing to enforce or not enforce in this case. Anytime anyone has ever got called for a travel on this, it was an incorrect call.
KyletheDingbat wrote:ellobo wrote:KyletheDingbat wrote:Spoiler:
You guys are both right. What Kareem is doing in those videos is lifting his pivot to shoot, like you said. But thinktank is also right, those step through moves were 100% travels until recently. Not just in the NBA but in all levels - I knew not to do those. When Jordan would rock somebody in the post and turn around to do his lean-in jumper, he jumped off both feet at once. If step throughs were legal back then he would have done them. So the rule has definitely changed - whether it's the letter or interpretation or enforcement.
When I was playing HS ball though the old heads would constantly complain about the youngsters traveling too. And they were right back then as well hahaha, but the way they wanted us to play was lame. The game keeps evolving.
No question it's become more popular and accepted recently. But saying "if step throughs were legal back then he would have done them" is like saying "If people knew that three was more than two back then, they would have shot more threes." It seems obvious once people wake up to the fact that they haven't been exploiting an aspect of the game like they could have. But until people started doing it and having success, and other people saw it being done, it was a long time before they woke up.
In the women's game, stepping onto the non-pivot foot has long been a common and commonly accepted move that no one ever considered a travel. I don't think it's accurate to conclude that just because it wasn't done in the men's game, that it wasn't always legal, especially because the actual rule has always been the same.
People knew threes were worth more than twos back then. But the understanding of the step through was different.
thinktank wrote:ellobo wrote:thinktank wrote:
Agreed.
We can cherry pick videos and stars who got away with it.
What we’re seeing now is volume of guys lifting the pivot foot go up by many, many, many times.
And that’s due to enforcement.
But how did people "get away" with something that was always legal? There's nothing to enforce or not enforce in this case. Anytime anyone has ever got called for a travel on this, it was an incorrect call.
I think you just answered your own question.
The referees called it a travel almost every time.
Therefore players didn’t use the move.
That’s an issue because it’s a factor in why it’s easier to score now than in the past.
ellobo wrote:thinktank wrote:ellobo wrote:
But how did people "get away" with something that was always legal? There's nothing to enforce or not enforce in this case. Anytime anyone has ever got called for a travel on this, it was an incorrect call.
I think you just answered your own question.
The referees called it a travel almost every time.
Therefore players didn’t use the move.
That’s an issue because it’s a factor in why it’s easier to score now than in the past.
But referees haven't "called it a travel almost every time."
It's a legal move, always has been (I've been playing and watching basketball for 50 years, and instructional videos going back to the 1950s and game examples going back to the 1970s have been posted in this thread), and any time it's been called otherwise, it was a bad call.
KyletheDingbat wrote:Lockdown504090 wrote:KyletheDingbat wrote:You guys are both right. What Kareem is doing in those videos is lifting his pivot to shoot, like you said. But thinktank is also right, those step through moves were 100% travels until recently. Not just in the NBA but in all levels - I knew not to do those. When Jordan would rock somebody in the post and turn around to do his lean-in jumper, he jumped off both feet at once. If step throughs were legal back then he would have done them. So the rule has definitely changed - whether it's the letter or interpretation or enforcement.
When I was playing HS ball though the old heads would constantly complain about the youngsters traveling too. And they were right back then as well hahaha, but the way they wanted us to play was lame. The game keeps evolving.
?s=46&t=X9mumPGLsRqqzpaDgtqZBg
?s=46&t=X9mumPGLsRqqzpaDgtqZBg
Is literally never been a travel to step through on your non pivot. This guys whole twitter is dedicated to penetrating the thickness of skulls. Women have been doing this for 30 years straight and nobody gets it.
https://youtu.be/Fs_5ip5kutg?si=1Cb_3sPv5nyA1nBP
You are just straight up wrong on this one.
This is a fun sociological exercise lol. Because you provide excellent proof - and yet I've played basketball for 30 years and can guarantee you that up until a few years ago, the vast majority of my friends, teammates, coaches, etc... would say the step through is a travel. And I'm sure you can find tons of examples of guys just like me all across America. But we don't have youtube videos documenting these things, so you basically have to take our word for it. Which makes this an interesting sociological exercise.
ellobo wrote:KyletheDingbat wrote:ellobo wrote:
No question it's become more popular and accepted recently. But saying "if step throughs were legal back then he would have done them" is like saying "If people knew that three was more than two back then, they would have shot more threes." It seems obvious once people wake up to the fact that they haven't been exploiting an aspect of the game like they could have. But until people started doing it and having success, and other people saw it being done, it was a long time before they woke up.
In the women's game, stepping onto the non-pivot foot has long been a common and commonly accepted move that no one ever considered a travel. I don't think it's accurate to conclude that just because it wasn't done in the men's game, that it wasn't always legal, especially because the actual rule has always been the same.
People knew threes were worth more than twos back then. But the understanding of the step through was different.
People knew three was more than two, but didn't realize a three point shot was potentially more valuable than a two point shot. It took decades for people to understand the possibilities. I agree that historically a lot of people BELIEVED the step through was a travel, but they were just mistaken.
People think the top of the backboard is out of bounds but they're wrong about that. It is not out of bounds if it hits the top and does not fall over the back of the backboard. If it falls or bounces to the front or side, it's in bounds. The sides and bottom of the backboard are in bounds too.
People think you can't catch your own air ball, but they're partially wrong about that. You can't in the NBA, but in high school, NCAA, and FIBA, you can if the referee deems it to be a legitimate shot attempt and not a "self pass".
People think that if you fall down with the ball, it's a travel, but they're partially wrong about that. It's not a travel in the NBA, but is in other leagues. Strangely, pickup games seem to go by the NBA rule on catching your own air ball, but not on falling down with the ball.
People think that if you go out of bounds without the ball, you can't be the first to touch the ball after reestablishing position inbounds, but they are partially wrong. You can if you go out of bounds because of your own momentum, but not if you go out of bounds purposely (such as running out of bounds under the basket and then receiving a pass after you come back in).
A lot of people are mistaken about many of the rules of the game, but the step through has never been illegal by the letter of the rules, and times it have been called incorrectly don't change that.