Decision making during our "rebuild" has been shockingly terrible. Review of timeline + path forward

[Harry Palmer]

Preaching to the choir, for me.

I’d add a popular misconception; so many fans seem to think owners want to rebuild, because it’s easier than trying to compete. This is false. Owners almost never want to rebuild, and are often the biggest obstacle to same. They do not want the lower revenue, pissed off fan bases and media scrutiny that comes with sustained losing. They can occasionally be talked into it, but even then they are usually looking to pull the ripcord at the first pretext. They don’t want it when they have newly acquired their shiny new toy, they want to make a splash. They don’t want it when they are considering selling or selling partial control because they want to be more attractive to buyers, etc. For owners as with fans, there is almost always a reason why now is the wrong time to rebuild.

And, again, losing by accident =/= rebuilding. The latter is an overt and organizationally acknowledged (often kept internal) strategy to be patient for a number of years, to trade treadmill assets and acquire picks, sometimes it also means taking on terrible contracts that come with draft sweeteners. It is also largely defined in the negative, by what you don’t do. You don’t acquire guys who will interfere with losing now but be irrelevant or disposable in 4-5 years when you’ve acquired the young stars you are going to build around, etc. And you sure as **** don’t trade draft picks for veterans.

This idea of 1 year rebuilds is often portrayed as the best of both worlds but is actually the worst; rebuilds require and allow for time and patience because you are probably not going to nail every pick, and picks need time to assess after being acquired. And it takes so much to get ownership, management and to a degree fans down with rebuilding, it’s really really hard to get that stopping and starting. Take advantage of the window while you can, rushing it to put your organizational eggs into one…egg?…is like paying for the ticket but increasing the possibility that you’ll never get the ride.

Many Raps fans are of the opinion that the organization has spent tons of time rebuilding; I’d argue the organization has never actually conducted a rebuild, beyond those automatically inherent to expansion franchises. The team has spent a fair amount of time losing, and much more being mediocre, but those two were usually interspaced, unintended and often done absent the draft pick compensation because of yet more short-term move hangovers.

The team is in a tough spot, kinda locked into a not-really-young core that isn’t good enough to contend but quite good enough to both prevent drafting high and encourage more short-term type of deals to ‘get us over the top’. At least they sometimes play an entertaining brand of basketball, but I’d imagine that the rebuilding bill will still have to be paid before we ever become a consistent contender, and all the time between is just revenue generation and ‘it’s an honour to just be included’ kind of satisfaction at best.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Can we just merge this with the TWO appreciation thread - it's basically TWO nostalgia

[brownbobcat]

Logic states to be notable trade partner worthy of being in "legitimate rumoured discussions," there has to be something that is on the table that is worthwhile that both teams have interest in. If Lowry wasn't worth much, then why was Masai's rumoured ask so high of Thybulle, Maxey plus multiple picks being bantered? There was nothing else on the 76er roster at the time that the Raptors would even consider of value, and Morey offering something like two second round picks and salary filler would not have generated "rumoured trade talks" between the teams. Do I believe Maxey was not on the table in a premium package that included another young asset and multiple draft assets? No... Do I think the 76ers were in legitimate trade talks for Lowry without offering any young asset in return? Also, No...

But Maxey was the most valuable component of that package by far. Morey was quoted later as saying Toronto's asking price for Lowry was in "La La land". That indicates they were nowhere close and that the deal wasn't held up by a couple of 2nd-rounders or Thybulle. If you look at the trade they did instead, it was basically three 2nd-rounders for George Hill.

The other factor is that Philly would have had to send over a lot more salary as KL was making $30M that year. It almost had to be Danny Green + some other filler to even get close. According to Sam Amick, the sticking point with the Sixers Lowry was draft compensation.
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/2478518/2021/03/26/why-no-kyle-lowry-trade-got-done-and-a-closer-look-at-the-ones-that-did-amicks-nba-trade-deadline-reflections/?

This is pure speculation, but Morey might have thought that Green + Thybulle was way more than enough given that Green still had some trade value, whereas Masai wanted FRP pick(s) on top.

[Got Nuffin]

Can we just merge this with the TWO appreciation thread - it's basically TWO nostalgia

This gave me a chuckle

Average age 24 (tied youngest in the league amongst better teams) 45 wins and a handful of players still with so much developing to do and uou guys still complaining about … something or other.

TWO nostalgia it is

[djsunyc]

i honestly believe that none of you know what you really want other than winning a title and continue to come up with reasons why we haven't won another one again.

it's like people forgot it took 6 seasons to win a chip after we hired he who won't be named...let alone 3 seasons before winning a playoff round.

we made a choice almost 2 years to the day to move on from og and pascal and we are starting to see positive signs. it's ok to let things play out and enjoy the process.

[ATLTimekeeper]

The decision making early on when Masai took over was awful, too. We needed Dolan to wimp out of a deal sending Lowry for Shumpert. Masai reaching on Bruno because Tim Leweike told him to make a splash at the draft. Giving Carroll that awful contract. What saved management was that Lowry and DeMar became close friends and figured out a formula that helped them win games, and that gave the team time to slowly develop prospects.

Right now we're in the slowly developing prospects stage. I don't know if Barnes is close with anyone on the team, but he and BI seem to have a good working relationship. IQ and RJ are a decent support network capable of picking up the slack when the big guns are off. Right now Poeltl's extension feels like Carroll's contract, a big mistake that might take a FRP to dump. He may also recover enough to contribute.

[ontnut]

Food is either good for you or bad for you, there is no neutral.

Sources needed.

[ontnut]

This board would have us in a better spot. It's inarguable. We have multiple anchor contracts. Quickley and Poeltl are diabolical contracts.

If you argue any of the above, you need your head examined.

This board is so impatient that the Raptors would like an insane Sacramento.

Oh man.
The amount of stupid trades/drafts this board would've made is iiiiinsane.

[MiamiSPX]

i honestly believe that none of you know what you really want other than winning a title and continue to come up with reasons why we haven't won another one again.

it's like people forgot it took 6 seasons to win a chip after we hired he who won't be named...let alone 3 seasons before winning a playoff round.

we made a choice almost 2 years to the day to move on from og and pascal and we are starting to see positive signs. it's ok to let things play out and enjoy the process.

I do find it fascinating that a lot of vocal people want us to go from 30 to 58 wins. Failing that, the ONLY desirable option is to tank lol. There seems to be no in between with them.

[ItsDanger]

My objective is to have an exciting team that is top 4 in Eastern conference. Then go from there. Championship or nothing mentality leads to disappointment. The hyperbolic statements from the gaslighting crowd should be ignored.

[brownbobcat]

And, again, losing by accident =/= rebuilding. The latter is an overt and organizationally acknowledged (often kept internal) strategy to be patient for a number of years, to trade treadmill assets and acquire picks, sometimes it also means taking on terrible contracts that come with draft sweeteners. It is also largely defined in the negative, by what you don’t do. You don’t acquire guys who will interfere with losing now but be irrelevant or disposable in 4-5 years when you’ve acquired the young stars you are going to build around, etc. And you sure as **** don’t trade draft picks for veterans.

This was exactly the problem. After the Barnes draft, they tanked for exactly 1 season (2024/25) and somehow decided that was enough before they even drafted. 2023/24 doesn't count because they went into that season trying to win and the value of tanking was compromised because the pick had been traded.

[DelAbbot]

The decision making early on when Masai took over was awful, too. We needed Dolan to wimp out of a deal sending Lowry for Shumpert. Masai reaching on Bruno because Tim Leweike told him to make a splash at the draft. Giving Carroll that awful contract. What saved management was that Lowry and DeMar became close friends and figured out a formula that helped them win games, and that gave the team time to slowly develop prospects.

Right now we're in the slowly developing prospects stage. I don't know if Barnes is close with anyone on the team, but he and BI seem to have a good working relationship. IQ and RJ are a decent support network capable of picking up the slack when the big guns are off. Right now Poeltl's extension feels like Carroll's contract, a big mistake that might take a FRP to dump. He may also recover enough to contribute.

What gives you the confidence we will repeat 2015-2018 run of perfect draft record and development success?

[ATLTimekeeper]

The decision making early on when Masai took over was awful, too. We needed Dolan to wimp out of a deal sending Lowry for Shumpert. Masai reaching on Bruno because Tim Leweike told him to make a splash at the draft. Giving Carroll that awful contract. What saved management was that Lowry and DeMar became close friends and figured out a formula that helped them win games, and that gave the team time to slowly develop prospects.

Right now we're in the slowly developing prospects stage. I don't know if Barnes is close with anyone on the team, but he and BI seem to have a good working relationship. IQ and RJ are a decent support network capable of picking up the slack when the big guns are off. Right now Poeltl's extension feels like Carroll's contract, a big mistake that might take a FRP to dump. He may also recover enough to contribute.

What gives you the confidence we will repeat 2015-2018 run of perfect draft record and development success?

It doesn't have to be perfect, but I have confidence in the same drafting team to hit more winners than losers over a similar period of time.

[DelAbbot]

The decision making early on when Masai took over was awful, too. We needed Dolan to wimp out of a deal sending Lowry for Shumpert. Masai reaching on Bruno because Tim Leweike told him to make a splash at the draft. Giving Carroll that awful contract. What saved management was that Lowry and DeMar became close friends and figured out a formula that helped them win games, and that gave the team time to slowly develop prospects.

Right now we're in the slowly developing prospects stage. I don't know if Barnes is close with anyone on the team, but he and BI seem to have a good working relationship. IQ and RJ are a decent support network capable of picking up the slack when the big guns are off. Right now Poeltl's extension feels like Carroll's contract, a big mistake that might take a FRP to dump. He may also recover enough to contribute.

What gives you the confidence we will repeat 2015-2018 run of perfect draft record and development success?

It doesn't have to be perfect, but I have confidence in the same drafting team to hit more winners than losers over a similar period of time.

Recent picks like Gradey Dick, Mogbo, Walter have not inspired confidence.

[ConSarnit]

i honestly believe that none of you know what you really want other than winning a title and continue to come up with reasons why we haven't won another one again.

it's like people forgot it took 6 seasons to win a chip after we hired he who won't be named...let alone 3 seasons before winning a playoff round.

we made a choice almost 2 years to the day to move on from og and pascal and we are starting to see positive signs. it's ok to let things play out and enjoy the process.

I do find it fascinating that a lot of vocal people want us to go from 30 to 58 wins. Failing that, the ONLY desirable option is to tank lol. There seems to be no in between with them.

Who is saying that? Please provide evidence.

The people who want 58 wins are those who think that this current core will never sniff close to 58 wins and as such we are spinning our wheels. Not a single person thinks we’re going to jump from 30 wins to 58 wins. We just want a team that can go from 30 -> 45 -> 57. We want a team with actual high upside potential, even if there’s a chance we never reach 45 wins over the next few seasons because the risk/reward is worse.

[ConSarnit]

What gives you the confidence we will repeat 2015-2018 run of perfect draft record and development success?

It doesn't have to be perfect, but I have confidence in the same drafting team to hit more winners than losers over a similar period of time.

Recent picks like Gradey Dick, Mogbo, Walter have not inspired confidence.

Truthfully, no one should be speaking with any confidence regarding the current FO. That goes for both the optimists and pessimists. They’ve effectively made 1 draft pick (CMB) which may or may not have been influenced by Masai. Martin is a complete unknown. They extended Poeltl (largely panned at the time and not looking any better now). They signed Mamu to a value deal.

How anyone can look at these results and say they’ve done a good or bad job is beyond me. It’s far too early to tell. They’ve really done nothing to make a mark on this team. The vast majority of the rotation are still “Masai’s guys” and the ‘25 draft picks are far from finished products.

[HangTime]

What gives you the confidence we will repeat 2015-2018 run of perfect draft record and development success?

It doesn't have to be perfect, but I have confidence in the same drafting team to hit more winners than losers over a similar period of time.

Recent picks like Gradey Dick, Mogbo, Walter have not inspired confidence.

Walter has inspired confidence, Atleast to me he has, since his first game... last season.

I can't be the only that saw it. Watch the way he plays.

This season, I initially thought his struggle was adjusting to the added weight.
But it seems more likely that it timing, as in when to cut into space, like RJ does (I think that's RJ's greatest strength). He probably wanted to give the ball handler extra time to do something.

[YogurtProducer]

My objective is to have an exciting team that is top 4 in Eastern conference. Then go from there. Championship or nothing mentality leads to disappointment. The hyperbolic statements from the gaslighting crowd should be ignored.

Oh man, do I have the team for you! The 2025-26 Raptors are an exciting team, currently sitting 4th in the conference!!

[DelAbbot]

It doesn't have to be perfect, but I have confidence in the same drafting team to hit more winners than losers over a similar period of time.

Recent picks like Gradey Dick, Mogbo, Walter have not inspired confidence.

Truthfully, no one should be speaking with any confidence regarding the current FO. That goes for both the optimists and pessimists. They’ve effectively made 1 draft pick (CMB) which may or may not have been influenced by Masai. Martin is a complete unknown. They extended Poeltl (largely panned at the time and not looking any better now). They signed Mamu to a value deal.

How anyone can look at these results and say they’ve done a good or bad job is beyond me. It’s far too early to tell. They’ve really done nothing to make a mark on this team. The vast majority of the rotation are still “Masai’s guys” and the ‘25 draft picks are far from finished products.

It's not a new FO. ATLTimeKeeper extrapolated 2015-2018 draft success to our future (with some margin for error), based on the fact some of our key scouts / draft decision makers from 2015-2018 (notably Dan Tolzman) have remained within the organization post-Masai.

Although, based on the Peter principle, the FO personnel who brought us draft success from 2015-2018 have been promoted to positions they no longer impact to the same positive degree. So maybe you are right, this is a new FO after all.

[ishoy123]

My objective is to have an exciting team that is top 4 in Eastern conference. Then go from there. Championship or nothing mentality leads to disappointment. The hyperbolic statements from the gaslighting crowd should be ignored.

Oh man, do I have the team for you! The 2025-26 Raptors are an exciting team, currently sitting 4th in the conference!!

They actually are though