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Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event

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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#161 » by paulpressey25 » Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:54 am

europa wrote:The fact that it's going to take Hammond time to fix this mess.


What is this team's single biggest problem right now? I'd say that it is we are so stressed on the salary side of things as it relates to the luxury tax that we maybe can't keep two incredibly promising young guys nor hope to add any new players the next two-years via the draft or free agency.

Why do we have this problem? Hammond didn't trade Redd and he pro-actively acquired another wing with a contract almost as bad. Hammond walked into the mess and rather than cleaning it up, made it worse from a contract standpoint.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#162 » by europa » Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:55 am

paulpressey25 wrote:Why do we have this problem?


Because the Bucks signed Dan Gadzuric to an idiotic contract.

You beat your dead horse. I'll beat mine. :)
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#163 » by xTitan » Mon Mar 2, 2009 2:58 am

paulpressey25 wrote:
europa wrote:The fact that it's going to take Hammond time to fix this mess.


What is this team's single biggest problem right now? I'd say that it is we are so stressed on the salary side of things as it relates to the luxury tax that we maybe can't keep two incredibly promising young guys nor hope to add any new players the next two-years via the draft or free agency.

Why do we have this problem? Hammond didn't trade Redd and he pro-actively acquired another wing with a contract almost as bad. Hammond walked into the mess and rather than cleaning it up, made it worse from a contract standpoint.


You want to take yet another major step back and start from scratch...rebuild longer than the shelf life of this team in this market....and your boss wants you to win now......you tell me what you would do?
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#164 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:02 am

europa wrote:Because the Bucks signed Dan Gadzuric to an idiotic contract.
You beat your dead horse. I'll beat mine. :)


But that just cannot excuse Hammond for not taking advantage of opportunities to give this team the kind of financial flexibility that we can no longer attain, leaving us needing to give away other assets while gaining far, far less flexibility.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#165 » by europa » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:04 am

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:
europa wrote:Because the Bucks signed Dan Gadzuric to an idiotic contract.
You beat your dead horse. I'll beat mine. :)


But that just cannot excuse Hammond for not taking advantage of opportunities to give this team the kind of financial flexibility that we can no longer attain, leaving us needing to give away other assets while gaining far, far less flexibility.


I've already said I would've made the RJ for Wally trade and that I think it may prove to be a mistake that he didn't. I'm not going to criticize him for failing to predict a major injury to Redd or for not trading Redd when he had the opportunity because the team was on pace to win 45 games or so and maybe be as high as a fifth seed. I think Hammond was justified in wanting to see just how good this team could be if it could get and keep its key players healthy.

If this team fails to improve because Hammond didn't trade RJ at the deadline, I'll be critical of him. But I'm not going to criticize him for something that hasn't happened yet and isn't guaranteed to happen by any means.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#166 » by paulpressey25 » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:08 am

xTitan wrote:You want to take yet another major step back and start from scratch...rebuild longer than the shelf life of this team in this market....and your boss wants you to win now......you tell me what you would do?


You and I both know that Redd's impact on this team wasn't that great. And his contract was fatal. Hammond needed to sell that to Kohl. i.e. we can compete just fine with Redd off this team.

Hammond needed to hit on either dumping Redd or drafting Lopez. Just hit on one of those and this team's future looks a lot better right now in the short term and long-term.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#167 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:09 am

xTitan wrote:You want to take yet another major step back and start from scratch...rebuild longer than the shelf life of this team in this market....and your boss wants you to win now......you tell me what you would do?


I would have gotten rid of Redd while I had the chance. I don't think he was really helping us win. That would have taken care of things right there.

Even after Redd went down with injury, it was still possible to make one or more trades that would help us for the future without having any impact on "win now"
Gadzuric, Joe Alexander, and the 2009 1st round pick were not necessary to keep for "win now"
I thought with Sessions' emergence it was also possible, and strategically wise from a financial standpoint, to move on without Ridnour. That wouldn't have had a HUGE effect on "win now"

There were many different ways to do this.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#168 » by europa » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:10 am

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:
There were many different ways to do this.


Can you list the offers Hammond had that he turned down which didn't involve RJ?
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#169 » by El Duderino » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:15 am

europa wrote:
El Duderino wrote:We all know Hammond inherited a bad team. If you only win 26 games the year prior, obviously there are problems. So what are we grossly underestimating?


The fact that it's going to take Hammond time to fix this mess. You can't say you understand that and then turn around and rip him when he tells you it's going to take time to fix it. That strikes me as highly contradictory.

Again, I understand that people don't like the moves he's making. I get that. I hated most of the moves the previous regime made the past two seasons that turned this team to rubbish. So I'm not saying people don't have a right to criticize Hammond if they don't agree with what he's doing. But so far the team has gotten better. That tells me he's doing his job. So if the team has gotten better, I'm going to give him time to see if he can continue improving the team before officially announcing he's failed.

That's all I'm saying.

And Dude, I agree that the biggest issue I see here is Hammond seems to value players this forum hates. I don't think there's any question that most of the people ripping Hammond the hardest are ones who hate Redd, in particular, the most. I think they consider Hammond an idiot because he actually had the audacity to believe Michael Redd was something other than the anti-Christ.


Obviously the Redd factor is pretty big. You and others here like him as a player and don't view his contract as an anchor that's been helping to drag down the Bucks for awhile and will continue to do so. I don't agree with that and of course there are many who share my views of Redd and particularly his contract. For me, if Redd could have been dealt for an expiring this past offseason, i'd have so much better hope for the franchise and that Hammond has a solid vision for maybe getting the Bucks from being an irrelevant franchise in the NBA.

As for the time given to turn around the Bucks, i didn't underestimate anything about what he inherited. While i'm extremely concerned and skeptical of how he's going about things, especially him not seeing how beneficial it would have been to the Bucks to get both Redd and his toxic contract off the books ASAP right after being hired and now his comment on passing on the RJ/Wally trade have simply raised major red flags for me. If somehow Hammond can make moves that turn around the franchise even though the 30 plus million dollar veteran non-special wings look to be boxing Hammond in, i'll give him credit. All i can do is judge where i see the Bucks franchise right now and besides Kohl allowing Hammond to hire Skiles and the drafting of Mbah a Moute, i'm much more worried about the Bucks future than i hoped to be after Hammond was hired. At the time of the hiring of Hammond, it made me happy, but now i'm back to being worried that yet again i'll be stuck for a few more years watching a Michael Redd lead Bucks team hoping to win around 40 games and a 7th- 8th seed if things go well.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#170 » by europa » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:18 am

That's fine, Dude. I respect your opinion. I'm just as excited about this team's future as I was when Hammond was hired. I'm not ignoring the challenges that lie ahead. But I think Hammond has shown he has a clear idea of the type of team he wants and he hasn't wavered from that approach. Given the improvements he's made to this team this season I remain confident he'll continue to improve this team going forward. I would be concerned if this team hadn't gotten better this season in terms of record and so much better in my opinion in terms of how it plays. My only regret this season is Bogut and Redd suffered major injuries because I do think this team, when healthy as the record indicated, had some real potential. But the fact this team has remained in the hunt for the playoffs despite being decimated by injuries is a testament to the team Hammond put together in my opinion and the job Skiles has done as its head coach.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#171 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:20 am

europa wrote:
GrandAdmiralDan wrote:
There were many different ways to do this.


Can you list the offers Hammond had that he turned down which didn't involve RJ?


Hammond didn't have to just wait/hope someone would propose a trade to him that Hammond would find favorable. I'm talking about trades HAMMOND should have proposed.

It is my belief that it would have taken less assets to push those kind of deals through than it will take this offseason in order to accomplish the same type of financial flexibility, due especially to logistics. I do not have video evidence to prove that, but that is my informed analysis as someone who has some insight when it comes to these matters ;)
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#172 » by paulpressey25 » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:22 am

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:Hammond didn't have to just wait/hope someone would propose a trade to him that Hammond would find favorable. I'm talking about trades HAMMOND should have proposed.


I find it really hard to believe that we couldn't have moved Ridnour for expirings. Even if we had to toss in something. Hammond himself said last night we will have to give up an asset or maybe two assets to re-sign Ramon. He needed to take care of that at the deadline when he had far more options than he'll have come July 1st.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#173 » by europa » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:24 am

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:
europa wrote:
GrandAdmiralDan wrote:
There were many different ways to do this.


Can you list the offers Hammond had that he turned down which didn't involve RJ?


Hammond didn't have to just wait/hope someone would propose a trade to him that Hammond would find favorable. I'm talking about trades HAMMOND should have proposed.


Do you know he didn't?

I agree with Bogut - it's easy to sit here on the message boards and talk about every trade this team should make. It's a helluva lot harder to make it happen in the real NBA. You and I both know how difficult it was for the Bucks to trade Mo and Villanueva last summer, for example. You need someone to want what you have to part with. If that isn't the case, you're not getting a deal done no matter how creative you are willing to be.

The primary issue I see here is Hammond has viewed Redd and RJ as being more valuable to this team than salary space. That doesn't make him an idiot. It simply means he values those players differently than many in this forum do. It appears to be a philosophical decision and the fact he didn't trade RJ for salary room after not trading Redd for salary room shows he's consistent in his belief. Until we see that belief clearly fail (which it clearly hasn't this season), then I think we need to at least give Hammond some time to put his plan into motion and see if it can ultimately work.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#174 » by jerrod » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:25 am

europa wrote:
And Dude, I agree that the biggest issue I see here is Hammond seems to value players this forum hates. I don't think there's any question that most of the people ripping Hammond the hardest are ones who hate Redd, in particular, the most. I think they consider Hammond an idiot because he actually had the audacity to believe Michael Redd was something other than the anti-Christ.



yeah, hammond values redd and rj so much that we're just gonna chill until they both just go away
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#175 » by paulpressey25 » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:32 am

I'm running out of gas on this thread tonight. I'm grateful that the team competes, the BC has some energy, and we've got some progress this season over last.

But we could have been positioned so well right now and instead we are stuck for another two-years. The fact he couldn't see the semi-trucks coming right at him with Potsie and the salary situation doesn't give me confidence he can pull the rabbit out of the hat this summer.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#176 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:36 am

europa wrote:
GrandAdmiralDan wrote:Hammond didn't have to just wait/hope someone would propose a trade to him that Hammond would find favorable. I'm talking about trades HAMMOND should have proposed.


Do you know he didn't?


I am comfortable in assuming that he didn't, by virtue of them not occurring.
I'm talking about being as aggressive as necessary to accomplish the financial flexibility that will now be more costly and more difficult to achieve.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#177 » by europa » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:38 am

GrandAdmiralDan wrote:
europa wrote:
GrandAdmiralDan wrote:Hammond didn't have to just wait/hope someone would propose a trade to him that Hammond would find favorable. I'm talking about trades HAMMOND should have proposed.


Do you know he didn't?


I am comfortable in assuming that he didn't, by virtue of them not occurring.


Interesting. Would you be comfortable in saying that Hammond didn't try and trade Villanueva last summer by virtue of no trade involving Villanueva coming to fruition?
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#178 » by GrandAdmiralDan » Mon Mar 2, 2009 3:39 am

paulpressey25 wrote:pull the rabbit out of the hat this summer.


We're going to leave the rabbit in that hat until 2011. It's probably going to be really gross when we pull out a decomposing dead rabbit from that hat in 2 years
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#179 » by xTitan » Mon Mar 2, 2009 4:08 am

I agree with the trading of Redd, but we all know that things have not changed that much within the organization, Hammond does not have complete power....I am wondering how much the senator would object to trading Redd in the first place, then on top of that trading him for nothing but bad contracts in return. It may make a lot of sense, just not sure that was an option Hammond was allowed to do.
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Re: Hammond Speaks-Season Ticket holder event 

Post#180 » by coolhandluke121 » Mon Mar 2, 2009 4:25 am

xTitan wrote:I agree with the trading of Redd, but we all know that things have not changed that much within the organization, Hammond does not have complete power....I am wondering how much the senator would object to trading Redd in the first place, then on top of that trading him for nothing but bad contracts in return. It may make a lot of sense, just not sure that was an option Hammond was allowed to do.


Oh no you didn't!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, you are so right! All of us are wasting so much time on this thread. The one constant that has consistently rendered this franchise irrelevant during the Kohl era is the team's apparent bias in favor of its own players and its willingness to convince themselves that some mediocre free agent they have an opportunity to sign is going to turn the franchise around. It is not, as many people say, bad drafting (I don't count whiffing on picks in the 7-15 range as being all that debilitating) or the refusal to spend or bad coaching or bad gm's. It is because guys like Big Dog, Caffey, Cheeseburger, Simmons, Thomas, Redd, Mo, Bogut, Gadz, and (probably) CV come to Milwaukee and get paid a lot more than they're worth, eventually destroying their team's payroll while simultaneously being just good enough to prevent the team from drafting high until they get the franchise player they so desperately need. Because Kohl is known to favor many of his own players and because so many coaches and gm's have come and gone while this trend has remained the same, it can likely be attributed to him.

Heck, Hammond even said he wanted to build around the 25-and-under core when he got here. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Kohl later told him not to give Redd away.

Oh, BTW we have to keep in mind that Hammond is talking to the typical fan with almost no knowledge of the CBA and so on. He's just pulling the wool over their eyes to buy himself some time.
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