The Amazingly Sucky Flip Saunders Thread

[TheSecretWeapon]

I guess I'm not getting the point behind playing Mike James. Mike Jones' contention that James was "decent" last season is delusional. He was terrible last season -- and the season before that. At age 34, he's not going to recapture whatever former glory he had (which "glory" is well in the rear view mirror at this point).

But it might pump up his trade value.

To which team? No one any good is going to trade for him because he a) sucks; and b) has a bad reputation. He had the best year of his career in Toronto, and the Raptors couldn't wait for him to leave. Minnesota signed him and then dumped him for an aging and ineffective Juwan Howard. Houston got rid of him that same season -- dumping him and Bonzi Wells for someone named Sergei Lishouk. The Rockets had such a miserable experience with him that they reportedly won't accept him in any trade proposal -- even if it's just part of a larger deal and he won't actually be around them.

Seems to me that James has hit the trifecta -- he's aging, abrasive, and he can't play. So yeah, the Wiz ought to get him in the rotation immediately.

Of course, I wouldn't give Stevenson any minutes either. He's another one ready for the glue factory. For right now, I'd just go with a backcourt of Foye-Boykins at PG and Young-McGuire at SG. (Or use Butler at SG and McGuire at SF.) I don't see any point in playing Stevenson or James.

As for McGee, I don't have a problem in principle with just throwing him out there. The idea of making him earn his minutes by learning the position doesn't seem to be motivating him. So, maybe getting his ass handed to him by actual professionals will compel him to work harder. On the other hand, he may be immature enough to not know he's getting his ass handed to him if he gets a couple dunks and a couple blocks while his team gets outscored. But, the net of the team being outscored while he's on the floor is that their margin of defeat gets a little wider. They're already losing with him on the bench, so it's not like he's going to cost them a passel of victories.

[Donkey McDonkerton]

Stevenson's about to enter the starting lineup.

I imagine this thread will have something to say about that.

And hey, free Chucky Atkins too!

I've already fallen down to watching maybe 5-10 minutes of the games that I can be bothered to remember are on. Stevenson moving into the starting lineup will be the end of even that little sign of interest for me - I will officially become a box score checker until a trade happens.

..and that's exactly what I did this morning, check the box score.

Recently I've been watching less and less...I just read twitter udpates from Truth about it and Bullets Forever. The last two games I didnt even DVR, first time in like 10 years.

[Hoopalotta]

I think you're selling Mike James a bit short there. I mean, many of us were calling Sergei Lishouk the Ukranian Mark Lansberger. That's not value?

[verbal8]

Seems to me that James has hit the trifecta -- he's aging, abrasive, and he can't play.

You can add way overpaid to that.

[closg00]

Flip does not know when NOT to play AJ. If Nick Young had shot 2 of 21 do you think he would have closed out the game or even played 40+ minutes? This was an EJ-type loss, win or lose with the vets.

[cdouglas]

How is McGee going to amount up to anything if the coach won't play him! It's time to play him now so that he can learn!!!!!

[hands11]

Finally an advocate for common sense in the media.

The other player that the Wizards need to play is JaVale McGee. Yes, Saunders have given him shots here and there throughout the season. Yes, McGee shows great potential at times and then shows a lack of common sense other times. But as with James, at this point, what do you have to lose by not playing McGee. Play James and possibly you get a little something in return that can help you temporarily or for the future. But if the Wizards don't play McGee they're possibly hurting themselves even more.

Brendan Haywood is going to be a free agent this summer. McGee is supposed to be the center of the future. Wizards officials have said they see him as a future multiple-year All-Star. But, how do you really know if you don't play him. Maybe the kid has all that in store. But maybe he does not. The Wizards could go into the summer not really knowing what they have at the center position. What if Haywood says, 'See ya, I'm getting the heck out of dodge!' Do the Wizards have the starting center they need in McGee, or do they need to draft or sign another big man?

http://www.mikejonessports.com/2010/01/ ... -shot.html

I have a cousin who dated a lady who's 2nd niece's best friends father is a good friend of the ball boy who Flip has coffee and donuts with every time they have a home game. He says, they don't play McGee because he is so amazingly talented that they don't want to tip their hand and show other teams what he can do because they don't want teams gunning for him in the trade packages. By not playing him other team are more likely to think he is a bust when the reality is, they say he is an equally young version of Wilt Chamberlain.

So there it is. You heard it here first. RealGM. Where when news happens, we break it.

[hands11]

Flip does not know when NOT to play AJ. If Nick Young had shot 2 of 21 do you think he would have closed out the game or even played 40+ minutes? This was an EJ-type loss, win or lose with the vets.

While I do agree there should be no sacred cows, did you really just compare NY to AJ.

AJ has earned his place on the floor. Yeah, it's frustrating to see him go 2 for 17 but there have been lots of game where a star player was way off but then got it going again. AJ falls into that category where you really can't jump a coach for sticking with him.

Now is that what I wanted to see ? Probably not, but I can at least understand why Flip keep going with him. One shot away from your next streak.

I think the bigger problem is how crappy this team is once you get past.. Haywood, AJ, CB, MM and maybe Mini Me. And of those names, CB has been very interesting this year. But at least CB is a pro level player. I'll add that I do like Blatche and Foye as players I think are real close to being what I would call a pro level players. But as of today, they aren't 100% there..

It would be one thing if AB and McGee where your only young projects surrounded by a better more mature/talented bench. Things would look a lot different. If we had that, I think they would mature a lot quicker.

What doesn't work about this team is they have to many projects and not enough solid players to create an environment for them to get better. Foye, AB, and McGee are enough. Specially if you want to add a draft pick. If those are the ones you think can make it, then you have to get ride of... NY, DMAC, Berto, Mike James, and DSleezy and replace them with players that are consistent producing pros. They don't have to be all star players. They just need to do something well and do it consistently. Well that and fit an actually position. Even a J Howard type for 1M works off the bench.

I think we really need to trim the tree. We can't have AB, McGee, NY, DMAC and Foye all as projects. I say get what you can for NY. He is talented on offense even is he is years away from being mature. He needs to go. Kid is just a weird goofy kid.

So of 8 players, you would have 3 projects. That leaves 4 of 12 players we are missing (30%). That's a ton of slots we are missing.

[closg00]

U Suck Flip! Starting DeSuck yet again.

[closg00]

As the team and coach Flop continue to tread-water, I found this article on how the Jazz turned-things around to be refreshing.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/Rose ... sis-013110

[hands11]

Sometimes the smaller details are the best sign of what has gone wrong.

What happen to DMAC ?

6-9 young kid with hops who was getting molded into a defensive player who could cover 3 positions.

The fact that DS is player the D stopper at SG when we have DMAC who is taller, quicker, a better leaper and has a better motor tells it all.

I guess DSleezy is in there to stretch the other teams D with his 3 ball.

Poor DMAC. Kid was on the rise.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... yerId=3246

I was hoping for a lot more from Flip then what I have seen. If this was the kind of coaching we were going to get, we could have just kept EFJ. At least we already know he sucked. Going through this let down with Flip is so much worse. Well at least we hosed Philly.

What I see it that most coaches just seem to be cat herders.

This franchise has lost all their leverage against the players. God I hate this league. This collective bargaining contract sucks. You sign someone and then your stuck. The NFL does it a lot better.

I could see maybe a couple years guaranteed, but no more then that. My job keeps me around because I'm worth it. If they thought I wasn't, they would say see yeah, give me a decent severance and I would be on my way.

Anyway, what was my point again. Oh yeah. DMAC 216 total minutes. He is on pace to get less minutes then he did in his rookie year after playing over 2000 last year.

[closg00]

Sometimes the smaller details are the best sign of what has gone wrong.

What happen to DMAC ?

6-9 young kid with hops who was getting molded into a defensive player who could cover 3 positions.

The fact that DS is player the D stopper at SG when we have DMAC who is taller, quicker, a better leaper and has a better motor tells it all.

I guess DSleezy is in there to stretch the other teams D with his 3 ball.

Poor DMAC. Keep was on the rise.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... yerId=3246

I was hoping for a lot more from Flip then what I have seen. If this was the kind of coaching we were going to get, we could have just kept EFJ. At least we already know he sucked. Going through this let down with Flip is so much worse. Well at least we hosed Philly.

What I see it that most coaches just seem to be cat herders.

This franchise has lost all their leverage against the players. God I hate this league. This collective bargaining contract sucks. You sign someone and then your stuck. The NFL does it a lot better.

I could see maybe a couple years guaranteed, but no more then that. My job keeps me around because I'm worth it. If they thought I wasn't, they would say see yeah, give me a decent severance and I would be on my way.

Anyway, what was my point again. Oh yeah. DMAC 216 total minutes. He is on pace to get less minutes then he did in his rookie year after playing over 2000 last year.

It's not my money, but I would totally make a buyout of Flip's contract part of the purchase of the team, really start-over from top to bottom. I would also bring in someone like Bill Laimbeer or even Patrick Ewing to coach.

[LyricalRico]

^ I support Flip less than I support Grunfeld, and Laimbeer is a guy I've wanted in the past (in fact, I might have been the first to bring him up a few years ago). If there was a situation where we could fire Flip and he got picked up right away so we weren't responsible to keep paying him, then I could see letting him go and bringing in Laimbeer to coach during the rebuilding years.

[Silvie Lysandra]

Bring in Thibodeau. Buy out Flip for half his contract and let him go to a veteran team where he doesn't have to babysit. He failed as a babysitter in Detroit, and he's failing as one now. He's a tactician, not a mommy.

Let's recap what Thibodeau brings to the table:

Defensive reputation.
Reputation as a great player development guy.
Respected by young players and veterans alike.
Hardware.

Fire EG, buy out Flip, hire Thibodeau, get the NYK pick by hook or crook. Even if we have to bring in a load of 2012 salaries, two top 10s in this draft wil set us up for years.

[doclinkin]

Dave Joerger develops young players into defensive stalwarts. Memphis began the turnaround with him on the bench.

Alonzo Mourning would make a fine role model as an assistant coach. Or Deke. Or Big John as a consultant. Ted Leonsis' G-Town diploma ought to count for something. Keep Sammy Cassell as an assistant.

Flip is in a rough position, with players just now learning how to play hard all game, not yet sure how to string a few games together. But he's often been dogged by the label that he doesn't play youngsters much. If we're forced to blow it all up and rebuild with youth (following Ted's prescription) then he may prove an awkward fit for the team, much as I like the cat alright.

[hands11]

Sometimes the smaller details are the best sign of what has gone wrong.

What happen to DMAC ?

6-9 young kid with hops who was getting molded into a defensive player who could cover 3 positions.

The fact that DS is player the D stopper at SG when we have DMAC who is taller, quicker, a better leaper and has a better motor tells it all.

I guess DSleezy is in there to stretch the other teams D with his 3 ball.

Poor DMAC. Keep was on the rise.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/s ... yerId=3246

I was hoping for a lot more from Flip then what I have seen. If this was the kind of coaching we were going to get, we could have just kept EFJ. At least we already know he sucked. Going through this let down with Flip is so much worse. Well at least we hosed Philly.

What I see it that most coaches just seem to be cat herders.

This franchise has lost all their leverage against the players. God I hate this league. This collective bargaining contract sucks. You sign someone and then your stuck. The NFL does it a lot better.

I could see maybe a couple years guaranteed, but no more then that. My job keeps me around because I'm worth it. If they thought I wasn't, they would say see yeah, give me a decent severance and I would be on my way.

Anyway, what was my point again. Oh yeah. DMAC 216 total minutes. He is on pace to get less minutes then he did in his rookie year after playing over 2000 last year.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=300205019

Wow, this guy really is EFJ. Every time I would get to my last straw with EJ, he would do something that made it look like he was going to get it. Then he would go back to stupid frustrating stuff. I'm not getting fooled again.

Anyway, nice to see McGuire get some burn. 15min McGee with 8 min and a sweet no look to AB for the dunk. If you didnt watch the game, it should have made the highlight. McGee from the top of the key no look to Dray for a dunk.

I few more minutes for McGee, a few less for AJ and I would say that was a good rotation. Flip get an B+ maybe any A for the game.

[Silvie Lysandra]

Flip IS comparable to EJ in terms of rotations (i.e. a disdain for youth that doesn't get it right away - he can work with self-driven guys like KG, but he is a bad player development guy - Larry Brown kind of is too.) But in terms of basketball fundamentals and an overall understanding of the game, Flip beats EJ every time, especially in terms of teaching defensive principles.

He'll go back to his 48-55 wins a season on a solid veteran team that is not a ****. But will any team take him on?

[hands11]

I don't get it. How freakn hard is it to develop a young player who wants some burn and has some talent?

You're the head coach. You give them a program and tell them to follow it.
You tell then what you want them to do. Start small and then expand it.

Then you tell us what that plan is. If the player doesn't do it, they look like a dumb ass to us and the media. If they do, they talk about how they are growing and if the coach doesn't give them burn then they are the dumb ass.

I sure hope they aren't sitting back waiting for them to figure out what to do.

[montestewart]

I don't get it. How freakn hard is it to develop a young player who wants some burn and has some talent?

You're the head coach. You give them a program and tell them to follow it.
You tell then what you want them to do. Start small and then expand it.

Then you tell us what that plan is. If the player doesn't do it, they look like a dumb ass to us and the media. If they do, they talk about how they are growing and if the coach doesn't give them burn then they are the dumb ass.

I sure hope they aren't sitting back waiting for them to figure out what to do.

Sometimes it seems like they are just waiting for the young players to figure it out. They have long lacked a quality big man coach, and Haywood is on record stating his role is not a s mentor. Jamison and Butler will talk with the press about what the young players have to do, but there's no indication as to what the veteran leaders do to mentor and lead the younger players, other than by example (and some of those examples might be questionable). There is no public airing of clear expectations conveyed to the younger players and the methods by which they are taught and motivated.

By all accounts, Pecherov worked his ass off trying to get better, but I don't know what, beyond his own efforts, was done to try to make a #1 pick become an NBA rotation player. McGuire seems to have everything an NBA rotation player needs except a consistent shot, but I don't know what the Wizards have done to try to teach him some better shooting skills. Maybe McGee and Young are really just dense or uninterested in becoming better players, but if that is the case, the Wizards could do a better job at showing they've done everything they could (although that might decrease trade value).

In the likely event that the Wizards become younger over the next year or two through trades and attrition and bringing in prospects and picks, it will all be wasted if they don't figure out a way to maximize the potential of such young players. Maybe they will, but under current management, I just don't see it.

[closg00]

Finally the media is taking a look Flip's coaching.
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page ... daily-dime