Around the NBA: Playoff Edition #2

[HomoSapien]

I'm sorry, is this not a discussion about legacies?

It is, but you just said I placed no value in sports.

I mean, you literally devalued the purpose of sports by placing no value on competition.

Semantics, nuance, meaning, etc.

Legacy of sports stars? Sports being a competitive game.

[andrewww]

I'll say this:

I don't see James joining Miami and Cleveland as being the exact same thing.

But if you do, then your argument is that James really circumvented competition for all three of his rings. If you think that or at least are arguing that, then that really hurts his legacy.

I see going "home" the same thing. Lebron himself said he would've joined Miami if he could do it all over again. In other words, he cares about himself first and foremost. Nothing wrong with that I might add.

Wade was on decline and with Kyrie and the first overall pick (soon to be KLove who was on the trading block)..Lebron knew he could help change the villain narrative of him in Miami if he went back home... Right or wrong with the "not 1 not 2" celebration the heatles were expected to ring every year... going home to CLE he could be a hero with even "just" one ring... never underestimates Lebron's PR team trying to make him be the good guy... much like how people would root for him over GSW in the Final... I've always thought of Lebron as the Mayweather of basketball.. could never beat an elite opponent in their prime without any BS or external factors... How else do his teams play "elite" defense all of a suddden? Everyone on his teams get the benefit of the doubt when theyre on his team.. I've seen this movie before.. and with Lebron getting GOAT talk the league will push this narrative more than ever before even against GSW...

[DanTown8587]

Two people answered your hypothetical: it's a completely different scenario if a collection of players take drastically less than their market values to "team up" and play on a team than three guys taking their max deals that they'd get on 29 other teams.

Just saying that they are different scenarios does not answer my hypothetical. You and Mark are arguing that level of competition and players circumventing their prime competition should not devalue their achievements.

So why shouldn't that same logic apply to 10 top players joining each other. The only difference you've pointed out is that in my hypothetical the players are taking pay cuts. What is the practical importance of that difference? You and Mark have consistently stated that because Lebron/Durant did not break any rules, they should not be criticized. Well taking a pay cut is not breaking the rules either.

In a reasonable hypothetical where 29 other teams still exist, have opportunity to acquire and sign other top players, draft and develop talent, etc. In YOUR scenario, that hypothetical doesn't assume that because it assumes that top players WILLINGLY play for less than their market value to skew the rest of the league.

Golden State and Miami before them were built through a combination of Free Agency and Trades and Drafting in which players were signed but no one truly circumvented the league to do it; LeBron and Bosh and Wade in Miami all made within a few hundred thousand of what they'd make otherwise. The Warriors were able to sign Durant due to two huge events: Curry's extension + prodigious rise and the salary cap rising. There is obviously luck involved in that but they played within the confines of the league and didn't truly manipulate the league to create their rosters. Your scenario is ONLY allowed if players basically manipulate their value and contracts. So yes, your hypothetical isn't comparable.

Your stance lacks a logical basis. Which my hypothetical illustrates.

It really doesn't.

[DuckIII]

"How can you be so obtuse?"

Name the movie.

Shawshank Redemption

Great scene.

[League Circles]

IMO, Lebron is the 2nd best player of my era (late 80s forward) and probably 2nd best ever. Top 4 for me is MJ, him, Kareem and Wilt.

But he can be 2nd best ever, with a small chance to become best ever, while still being somewhat of a bitch for jumping ship twice. Definitely not the 2nd coolest player ever.

[Rerisen]

Zaza should be suspended for that bush league move. A dirty play like he did could not only cost the Spurs the series (or any chance they had in it) but also deprive the NBA of one of its best players playing at his top level for the playoffs, which hurts the product. They have to crack down on crap like that.

[RedBulls23]

Zaza should be suspended for that bush league move. A dirty play like he did could not only cost the Spurs the series (or any chance they had in it) but also deprive the NBA of one of its best players playing at his top level for the playoffs, which hurts the product. They have to crack down on crap like that.

Anyone telling me that wasn't Intentional or dirty is full of ****.

I Wouldn't blame the Spurs for retaliating on KD.

[Southpaw]

Yeah we all know that was intentional. Could cost everyone a great series.

[kyrv]

It's good to be Klay. You can get 6 points, 5 fouls, and nobody will remember because your team won. This is why there are superteams. If Jimmy Butler did that, or Russ Westbrook, or James Harden, they would be fried. But Klay does it and all is cool, he can sleep just fine.

And next game if Curry or Durant pee in the bed, then Klay and others will bail them out.

Yep. But I miss the "I told you Klay would be perfect here" after those games.

[kyrv]

But is it absurd in sports? Prior to LeBron, did we have examples of players in their primes joining forces in such a fashion?

College athletics? Premier league soccer?

I just don't get why it's the players job to create parity in their sport. The league could do that if they get rid of the draft and max salaries and how much money has to be spent on players but they won't do that.

Every issue you have with parity lives from the fact owners care more about money than winning and yet players, not owners, get blamed for looking out for themselves when they have far less money.

It's not the players job to create parity. No one is saying that they did something illegal or cheated.

All I'm arguing is that colluding with other stars is a blemish in LeBron's legacy. He's probably going to finish his career being a top two player (perhaps he's already there), but the way he won wasn't as impressive as many other past champions.

You have been very clear and I agree with you.

People are pretending you said it was illegal or there was an asterisk, which just muddies the water.

All titles are and aren't identical. Hakeem won two titles when Jordan retired in his prime. It's a title, yet nobody is comparing those Houston teams that won before and after. Because they weren't as good.

[kyrv]

Let's simplify the argument.

Are all championships equal?

They are and aren't - but for discussion and comparison - very much not the same.

[kyrv]

People mad at Durant/Warriors, I'm curious, as Dan asked, should the Warriors not have signed him? He got a max deal. They had to clear a lot of players. People argued they weren't better and early this season they needed to trade someone for more depth. Nobody argued the Heat were not better.

Durant to GS was not some years long plan, nor did he have a tv show to announce it, nor did GS hold a title ceremony before the fact.

[othawhitemeat]

Just saying that they are different scenarios does not answer my hypothetical. You and Mark are arguing that level of competition and players circumventing their prime competition should not devalue their achievements.

This is correct. I've argued this because I think it's unfair to criticize LeBron for joining Wade and Bosh via free agency whilst holding someone like Magic Johnson in esteem because he never had to leave the Lakers, despite playing with KAJ and Worthy.

The way those teams were put together differs but the act is essentially the same thing: winning titles with a big 3.

That's why I don't lessen LeBron's titles.

Mostly disagree with you and slightly agree with you a little. I get what you are saying, but I mostly agree with Homosapien. I'm not going to jump on the Magic train because he was loaded with talent, but he won a chip as a rookie without their best player in Kareem. I don't blame Lebron for leaving, but the team he joined, I do blame him for. I mean he went to a team with other superstars that were both top 10 and in Wade, top 4ish. In addition, he went there because Lebron was not ready to lead them to a chip. In addition, he totally choked out in the 11' finals, and the one they beat the Spurs, he was not even that great. Last year, he was great in everything but scoring at the end, but was bailed out by refs and Kyrie. I also feel like last years Warriors are slightly overrated despite winning 73 games. They almost lost to the Thunder last year btw. This year, the only competition they have, they are getting smoked in the first game until they purposely injure Kawhi. Do I think the Warriors beat the Spurs irregardless? Yes, because of the talent, but I think it would have went 7, at least 6 with a Spurs team that is not nearly as good as the one that beat the Heat. Now saying that, Lebron was impressive last year (about the first time I felt outside of not scoring in the clutch, he was the most clutch).

I think his legacy can be questioned for joining the Heat. While he did not assemble the first Cavs team, he was the one demanding Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, etc... He was demanding trading for Jamison and other players. He was also not mature enough to lead them to a real chip despite taking them to the Finals against the Spurs.

I think an underrated star that stuck with mediocre talent would be Hakeem Olujawon and those Rockets teams. Those two years, he had some of the most dominant seasons and yet, nobody ever talks about him.

I'm also sick of hearing of hearing how the Bulls never almost beat a team as good as last year's Warriors.... Maybe not the first time go around, but the second 3 peat, I feel like the Sonics and Jazz would have given this Warriors team a run for its money. I feel like the Warriors are also a by product of a soft NBA. Yes, they are loaded, but they are also super soft. I mean they were getting smoked yesterday by Kawhi and great coaching. The Jazz with Karl Malone, Hornacek, Stockton, Russell, etc... That was a very tough team. I know Draymond gets reference for his defense, but no way is he containing Karl Malone. Stockton/Hornacek are tough players too and did not fold in the playoffs.

Lebron is a great player, but I feel in a different era would not be nearly as good, despite the athletic advantages. I mean heck, when the Spurs won, Kawhi outplayed him. Dirk/Wade outplayed him in that playoff series too. I can't imagine Larry, Magic in their prime getting outplayed like that. His regular season along with last year is the only reason he is top 4 right now. He could have been the best, but he did cheapen his legacy by joining the Heat. I think if he would have joined some team that year like the Bulls/Clippers or such and still been by far the best player while joining young talent while still cheapens, at least he would have been leading them and not relying on Wade and such to lead them to chips.

[the ultimates]

People mad at Durant/Warriors, I'm curious, as Dan asked, should the Warriors not have signed him? He got a max deal. They had to clear a lot of players. People argued they weren't better and early this season they needed to trade someone for more depth. Nobody argued the Heat were not better.

Durant to GS was not some years long plan, nor did he have a tv show to announce it, nor did GS hold a title ceremony before the fact.

Personally I'm not mad at the Warriors. I'm disappointed in Durant joining a team they should have beat last year in the playoffs up 3-1 and taking veiled shots at Westbrook on his way out. Durant said he wouldn't have went to GS if they had won last year. I would have thought a competitor wouldn't have wanted to go to a team he should have beat and blew a 3-1 lead in the finals.

[the ultimates]

Just saying that they are different scenarios does not answer my hypothetical. You and Mark are arguing that level of competition and players circumventing their prime competition should not devalue their achievements.

This is correct. I've argued this because I think it's unfair to criticize LeBron for joining Wade and Bosh via free agency whilst holding someone like Magic Johnson in esteem because he never had to leave the Lakers, despite playing with KAJ and Worthy.

The way those teams were put together differs but the act is essentially the same thing: winning titles with a big 3.

That's why I don't lessen LeBron's titles.

Mostly disagree with you and slightly agree with you a little. I get what you are saying, but I mostly agree with Homosapien. I'm not going to jump on the Magic train because he was loaded with talent, but he won a chip as a rookie without their best player in Kareem. I don't blame Lebron for leaving, but the team he joined, I do blame him for. I mean he went to a team with other superstars that were both top 10 and in Wade, top 4ish. In addition, he went there because Lebron was not ready to lead them to a chip. In addition, he totally choked out in the 11' finals, and the one they beat the Spurs, he was not even that great. Last year, he was great in everything but scoring at the end, but was bailed out by refs and Kyrie. I also feel like last years Warriors are slightly overrated despite winning 73 games. They almost lost to the Thunder last year btw. This year, the only competition they have, they are getting smoked in the first game until they purposely injure Kawhi. Do I think the Warriors beat the Spurs irregardless? Yes, because of the talent, but I think it would have went 7, at least 6 with a Spurs team that is not nearly as good as the one that beat the Heat. Now saying that, Lebron was impressive last year (about the first time I felt outside of not scoring in the clutch, he was the most clutch).

I think his legacy can be questioned for joining the Heat. While he did not assemble the first Cavs team, he was the one demanding Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, etc... He was demanding trading for Jamison and other players. He was also not mature enough to lead them to a real chip despite taking them to the Finals against the Spurs.

I think an underrated star that stuck with mediocre talent would be Hakeem Olujawon and those Rockets teams. Those two years, he had some of the most dominant seasons and yet, nobody ever talks about him.

I'm also sick of hearing of hearing how the Bulls never almost beat a team as good as last year's Warriors.... Maybe not the first time go around, but the second 3 peat, I feel like the Sonics and Jazz would have given this Warriors team a run for its money. I feel like the Warriors are also a by product of a soft NBA. Yes, they are loaded, but they are also super soft. I mean they were getting smoked yesterday by Kawhi and great coaching. The Jazz with Karl Malone, Hornacek, Stockton, Russell, etc... That was a very tough team. I know Draymond gets reference for his defense, but no way is he containing Karl Malone. Stockton/Hornacek are tough players too and did not fold in the playoffs.

Lebron is a great player, but I feel in a different era would not be nearly as good, despite the athletic advantages. I mean heck, when the Spurs won, Kawhi outplayed him. Dirk/Wade outplayed him in that playoff series too. I can't imagine Larry, Magic in their prime getting outplayed like that. His regular season along with last year is the only reason he is top 4 right now. He could have been the best, but he did cheapen his legacy by joining the Heat. I think if he would have joined some team that year like the Bulls/Clippers or such and still been by far the best player while joining young talent while still cheapens, at least he would have been leading them and not relying on Wade and such to lead them to chips.

Your Warriors point is spot on and is what infuriates me has to how people view Lebron now through filtered glasses. OKC loses a series up 3-1 to Golden State. It's seen as a bigger choke job on the Thunders part than an epic Warriors comeback. GSW loses a 3-1 lead to the Cavs and its seen as a bigger Cleveland comeback than a Warriors choke. Even in the Superbowl people will tell you despite Brady and the Patriots coming back it was a bigger choke job by Atlanta.

[BR0D1E86]

People mad at Durant/Warriors, I'm curious, as Dan asked, should the Warriors not have signed him? He got a max deal. They had to clear a lot of players. People argued they weren't better and early this season they needed to trade someone for more depth. Nobody argued the Heat were not better.

Durant to GS was not some years long plan, nor did he have a tv show to announce it, nor did GS hold a title ceremony before the fact.

Personally I'm not mad at the Warriors. I'm disappointed in Durant joining a team they should have beat last year in the playoffs up 3-1 and taking veiled shots at Westbrook on his way out. Durant said he wouldn't have went to GS if they had won last year. I would have thought a competitor wouldn't have wanted to go to a team he should have beat and blew a 3-1 lead in the finals.

I'm not mad at anyone. It just bums me out that this sort of thing is such common practice now.

[kyrv]

People mad at Durant/Warriors, I'm curious, as Dan asked, should the Warriors not have signed him? He got a max deal. They had to clear a lot of players. People argued they weren't better and early this season they needed to trade someone for more depth. Nobody argued the Heat were not better.

Durant to GS was not some years long plan, nor did he have a tv show to announce it, nor did GS hold a title ceremony before the fact.

Personally I'm not mad at the Warriors. I'm disappointed in Durant joining a team they should have beat last year in the playoffs up 3-1 and taking veiled shots at Westbrook on his way out. Durant said he wouldn't have went to GS if they had won last year. I would have thought a competitor wouldn't have wanted to go to a team he should have beat and blew a 3-1 lead in the finals.

Great points - how it unveiled was odd and I completely understand anyone that thinks it doesn't pass the smell test.

This whole debate is a rare thing, nobody is wrong at all, people just weigh some things differently.

[kulaz3000]

Zaza should be suspended for that bush league move. A dirty play like he did could not only cost the Spurs the series (or any chance they had in it) but also deprive the NBA of one of its best players playing at his top level for the playoffs, which hurts the product. They have to crack down on crap like that.

100% - it was a professional dirty play for sure. To add, there is a history of Zaza having equally dirty plays and it sickens me that what could have potentially been an amazing series is now going to likely be a quick and boring series.

What's worse is that during Brown's questioning on the topic, he said a similar play happened with Durant, and though he didn't get injured he said the defender did crowd his landing space and questioned the refs, and they said, they didn't call it only because the offensive player didn't land on the defender, and that's the biggest issue.

If you're ONLY going to make the foul call when a player gets injured, defenders are still going to attempt that move to at the very least put fear in the offensive player to focus on his landing as opposed to his shot, that's one of the reason why Bowen was so good of a defender, he got into the offensive players head because he made that move his own.

Whether you land on the defender or not, that play where a defender shuffles his feet to crowd the space where the offensive player is landing should automatically be called for an flagrant foul and that would stamp out that dirty play.

[Payt10]

Zaza should be suspended for that bush league move. A dirty play like he did could not only cost the Spurs the series (or any chance they had in it) but also deprive the NBA of one of its best players playing at his top level for the playoffs, which hurts the product. They have to crack down on crap like that.

Anyone telling me that wasn't Intentional or dirty is full of ****.

I Wouldn't blame the Spurs for retaliating on KD.

For sure. If I were the Spurs, I'm "closing out" super hard on both Steph and KD in G2 to prove a point.

[kingkirk]

Mostly disagree with you and slightly agree with you a little. I get what you are saying, but I mostly agree with Homosapien. I'm not going to jump on the Magic train because he was loaded with talent, but he won a chip as a rookie without their best player in Kareem. I don't blame Lebron for leaving, but the team he joined, I do blame him for. I mean he went to a team with other superstars that were both top 10 and in Wade, top 4ish. In addition, he went there because Lebron was not ready to lead them to a chip. In addition, he totally choked out in the 11' finals, and the one they beat the Spurs, he was not even that great. Last year, he was great in everything but scoring at the end, but was bailed out by refs and Kyrie. I also feel like last years Warriors are slightly overrated despite winning 73 games. They almost lost to the Thunder last year btw. This year, the only competition they have, they are getting smoked in the first game until they purposely injure Kawhi. Do I think the Warriors beat the Spurs irregardless? Yes, because of the talent, but I think it would have went 7, at least 6 with a Spurs team that is not nearly as good as the one that beat the Heat. Now saying that, Lebron was impressive last year (about the first time I felt outside of not scoring in the clutch, he was the most clutch).

I think his legacy can be questioned for joining the Heat. While he did not assemble the first Cavs team, he was the one demanding Ilgauskas, Mo Williams, etc... He was demanding trading for Jamison and other players. He was also not mature enough to lead them to a real chip despite taking them to the Finals against the Spurs.

I think an underrated star that stuck with mediocre talent would be Hakeem Olujawon and those Rockets teams. Those two years, he had some of the most dominant seasons and yet, nobody ever talks about him.

I'm also sick of hearing of hearing how the Bulls never almost beat a team as good as last year's Warriors.... Maybe not the first time go around, but the second 3 peat, I feel like the Sonics and Jazz would have given this Warriors team a run for its money. I feel like the Warriors are also a by product of a soft NBA. Yes, they are loaded, but they are also super soft. I mean they were getting smoked yesterday by Kawhi and great coaching. The Jazz with Karl Malone, Hornacek, Stockton, Russell, etc... That was a very tough team. I know Draymond gets reference for his defense, but no way is he containing Karl Malone. Stockton/Hornacek are tough players too and did not fold in the playoffs.

Lebron is a great player, but I feel in a different era would not be nearly as good, despite the athletic advantages. I mean heck, when the Spurs won, Kawhi outplayed him. Dirk/Wade outplayed him in that playoff series too. I can't imagine Larry, Magic in their prime getting outplayed like that. His regular season along with last year is the only reason he is top 4 right now. He could have been the best, but he did cheapen his legacy by joining the Heat. I think if he would have joined some team that year like the Bulls/Clippers or such and still been by far the best player while joining young talent while still cheapens, at least he would have been leading them and not relying on Wade and such to lead them to chips.

There is a lot of text here, of which I disagree with most of it (which is fine).

But these things really stood out to me:

Last year, he was great in everything but scoring at the end, but was bailed out by refs and Kyrie.

You’re essentially discrediting LeBron’s 2016 Finals performance, or at least reducing it, because Kyrie made a huge shot. That’s ridicoulously unfair. Are you going to ignore that incredible block? That’s an iconic play in basketball history.

Just so it’s clear, these were LeBron’s numbers in the Finals: 29.7 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 8.9 APG, 2.6 SPG, 2.3 BPG, 49.4 FG%, 37.1 3P%

Those are insane numbers. Down 3-1, here is LeBron’s line: 36.3 PPG, 12 RPG, 9.7 APG, 3 SPG, 3 BPG, 50.6 FG%, 42.1 3P%

There is no credible argument at all to say that LeBron was bailed out by Kyrie and the refs in the Finals last season. It’s factually incorrect.

I mean heck, when the Spurs won, Kawhi outplayed him

No, Kawhi didn’t out play LeBron in the Finals

Kawhi: 17.8 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 2 APG, 1.6 SPG, 1.2 BPG
LeBron: 28.2 PPG, 7.8 RPG, 4 APG, 2 SPG, 0.4 BPG

Kawhi was incredible in that series because his defense was great and he shot over 50 percent from 3. He won MVP because he was on the winning team. LeBron was still the best and most influential player in the series, just as he was in the 2015 Finals when Andre Iguadala won Finals MVP.

I think if he would have joined some team that year like the Bulls/Clippers or such and still been by far the best player while joining young talent while still cheapens, at least he would have been leading them and not relying on Wade and such to lead them to chips.

I had to laugh here. If he joins the Bulls in 2010, it would’ve been less cheap and more acceptable for people, says the RealGM Bulls board. Irony!

I understand your point, but I would be shocked if this board and the members of it would be sitting here today discussing LeBron’s cheapened legacy because he came here to win titles (instead of Miami).